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O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

Yeah, if they're that insistent about it, it's time to cut ties. You've got to prioritize self-care with things like this.

I'd love to say that hearing that kind of stuff from them doesn't cloud my judgement, but it really does. One of my most tolerant friends has reffered to it as "adding petrol to fire", and I'd say it's pretty accurate. After all, all of them say that surgeries are my own decisions, so it should work both ways; not influencing me indirectly.

Something interesting here is that a lot of trans people I've known, when they start acting on their dysphoria issues (even just making the concrete step of seeing someone about it), their other issues become easier to deal with. I believe this is because it makes "room" for these things to happen.

That's a pretty interesting observation. I was planning on visiting a psychologist around four months ago (just a few weeks before discovering that I'm trans) for depression and similar stuff, but due to my stupidness I chose antidepressants and only one visit at a psychiatrist's. Ended up with depression , and then one thing let to another.. Seeing as I'm still taking antidepressants, yet to recover.

Actually, now that I think about it, not taking the psychologist does seem like the very beginning of my streak of poor choices.

A friend on anti-depressants explained recently that her meds don't "make her happy" even though she was more often happy when taking them. What they did was take away things preventing her from being happy. Like it took out the limiters, then she could do things without them in the way. For a lot of people it's similar when you start dealing with dysphoria, you're clearing away a lot of the stuff that makes it hard to see the other issues clearly and deal with them. One thing relates to another, and so forth.

Well, I can imagine it being a case here. After all, having less stuff on one's mind makes space for dealing with other issues, gender related or not. I'm guessing that I need to nib this issue in the bud before it causes more damage.

A lot of guys have a very fragile concept of masculinity, and feel like acknowledging stuff like this puts the structures they rely on at risk. Plus, as I mentioned today in another discussion, there's a strong, often among males but not limited to them, tendency to devalue "mental" issues. "Reals before feels", "It's all in your head" and so forth. That probably plays a role here.

My mental state isn't really the problem with them, at least not regarding to gendery dysphoria. On the other hand, the guys' concept of masculinity does seem to play a role here.

Rewrote one part of this message because my pre-nap reading skills are lackluster.

last edited at Oct 9, 2016 4:24PM

Last-game-4122039
joined Mar 14, 2016

@Galich
I really don't know how to put this, your guy friends, they are ......... I mean, in my country, there are men who crossdress as women. We all use female honorifics towards them without them asking us to do so since it's just a common sense. We treat them almost as real women; some of us girls just couldn't freely get change in front of them, or apply too much skinship with them as we did with girls.

last edited at Oct 9, 2016 5:39PM

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

My mental state isn't really the problem with them, at least not regarding to gendery dysphoria. On the other hand, the guys' concept of masculinity does seem to play a role here.

I was thinking more in terms of how identity is treated as "feels" and something you can't physically prove. Saying you're a girl when you've got a masculine body is treated by a lot of people with such attitudes as a mental state in itself, and unless you change the body you're just playing pretend.

O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

@Galich
I really don't know how to put this, your guy friends, they are ......... I mean, in my country, there are men who crossdress as women. We all use female honorifics towards them without them asking us to do so since it's just a common sense. We treat them almost as real women; some of us girls just couldn't freely get change in front of them, or apply too much skinship with them as we did with girls.

@oliver Hmm, I can how it works.. would also think that it's common sense, even pre-discovery. I can fully understand why some girls wouldn't feel fully comfortable around them, but this in the comparison to the right pronouns..

I do start to slowly feel like I was too liberal to others while the it was still a "hot topic" and now I'm paying the price. Which reminds me, tomorrow mandatory PE classes with guys.. well, I'm used to hearing others complain about my feminine build, and I do believe I'll start to enjoy every single comment of such meaning.

I honestly don't know what to expect as a "standard" at this point. On one hand, most of my friends turned out to be a disappointment, on the other the rest + family + Dynasty say that I should strive for being tolerated more. One part of my brain says that the first group is too closed minded to be taken seriously, while the other says that the second one is biased for knowing me a bit more closely. Then again, I did show quite a decent deal of tolerance to the LGBT community even a few years ago, so..

I was thinking more in terms of how identity is treated as "feels" and something you can't physically prove. Saying you're a girl when you've got a masculine body is treated by a lot of people with such attitudes as a mental state in itself, and unless you change the body you're just playing pretend.

@Nez Ah, I see. Sorry, was rather sleepy as of the moment of creating that message.

I know that all too well.. I mean, there's no true way of proving how one feels like in such scenario, and vice versa. It annoys me to no end, but guess I'll have to deal with it, at least for now. Plus, it's all with guys (no offense to any men reading this message, since I talked to quite a lot of you that acted very decent to me); it kind of makes sense after all, other women can relate a bit easier due to their gender.

last edited at Oct 9, 2016 6:05PM

Johanliebert
joined Dec 15, 2015

@Galich

(no offense to any men reading this message, since I talked to quite a lot of you that acted very decent to me)

It's a good thing that you did not have to interact with me, just like Ted Bundy said

  • "I'm the most cold-hearted son of a bitch you'll ever meet."
O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

@Galich

(no offense to any men reading this message, since I talked to quite a lot of you that acted very decent to me)

It's a good thing that you did not have to interact with me, just like Ted Bundy said

  • "I'm the most cold-hearted son of a bitch you'll ever meet."

"Trouble is my business". No, not gonna bother with quoting serial murderers, Raymond Chandler wins the argument himself the moment his surname is brough into the discussion.

Triggered.
I will troll by pulling the "once you label me you negate me" card.

FTFY. An attributed quote nontheless

last edited at Oct 9, 2016 6:30PM

Last-game-4122039
joined Mar 14, 2016

@Galich
Avoiding hurting others' feelings is also a common sense. Your friends should at least have it though. Are you surrounded by people who are narrow minded + in lack of common senses?

ChocolateCakeLover
Gigi7
joined Feb 4, 2015

sleeping sucks D:

O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

@Galich
Avoiding hurting others' feelings is also a common sense. Your friends should at least have it though. Are you surrounded by people who are narrow minded + in lack of common senses?

@oliver surprisingly enough, would never consider them as any of those two things. Lacking in empathy maybe. Our quarrels regarding this issue always boil down to refusing to use the right pronouns unless a surgery.

Actually, I'd say that describing it as choosing personal rules above hurting a friend's feelings is an accurate way of saying things.

Tumblr_lolhmrwbnl1qiyxpbo4_250
joined Jun 22, 2016

Happy Birthday CCL??? (`・ω・´)

Last-game-4122039
joined Mar 14, 2016

@Galich

surprisingly enough, would never consider them as any of those two things. Lacking in empathy maybe. Our quarrels regarding this issue always boil down to refusing to use the right pronouns unless a surgery.

Actually, I'd say that describing it as choosing personal rules above hurting a friend's feelings is an accurate way of saying things.

They do not sound like bad guys. They sound so frustrating yet funny(positively). I kind of want them to experience Galich treating them using her personal whatever weird rules too.

Djltnk3ucaamfms
joined Apr 12, 2016

May I just say that I love your avatar Galich? I really enjoyed playing that game; I think it's one of the most (if not the most) chill games I've played in a while now. I found it very relaxing and amusing.

O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

@Galich

surprisingly enough, would never consider them as any of those two things. Lacking in empathy maybe. Our quarrels regarding this issue always boil down to refusing to use the right pronouns unless a surgery.

Actually, I'd say that describing it as choosing personal rules above hurting a friend's feelings is an accurate way of saying things.

They do not sound like bad guys. They sound so frustrating yet funny(positively). I kind of want them to experience Galich treating them using her personal whatever weird rules too.

@oliver Well, looks like they'll be in to experience my rule of "vising a psychologist, so unless you treat me better I'm not gonna talk to you". It's not like they'll be the only ones to experience a bit of fun from the rules.

Maybe I should perform a surgery on them and start reffering to them with female pronouns, and tell them that I'll change it once they get another surgery? Hmm, now that does seem like an idea..

May I just say that I love your avatar Galich? I really enjoyed playing that game; I think it's one of the most (if not the most) chill games I've played in a while now. I found it very relaxing and amusing.

@LumberingCrane As a matter of fact, you're more than welcome to =) Thanks!

You're probably the first to recognize where it's from, which kind of surprises me to be honest. Don't want to spoil anything, but it did have topics related to sapphic love.

So did I! I really loved the soundtrack as well, I keep it on my phone and listen to it when it's either night or the weather is bad. It really does have a wonderful atmosphere. Plus, Jill was a nice character. Too bad she didn't end up with her boss, but them romancing is my cannon. Actually, all of characters were fun. While I'm usually not that found of VNs, VA11 HALL-A and Steins; Gate both hold a special place in my heart.

Approved of your avi btw. :D

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 7:28AM

94230567_p0_master1200~2
joined Dec 24, 2014

@Galich

The more I read about how you describe them, the more I'm glad I have no real IRL friends (lol).

On a side note, I was about to add something on this post that I wanted to get off my chest for a while now but it ended up being 1200+ words, so I'm just going to link it here. Feel free to read it if anyone wants, although spoiler warning if you do.

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 7:39AM

O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

@Galich

The more I read about how you describe them, the more I'm glad I have no real IRL friends (lol).

On a side note, I was about to add something on this post that I wanted to get off my chest for a while now but it ended up being 1200+ words, so I'm just going to link it here. Feel free to read it if anyone wants, although spoiler warning if you do.

@Rina Well, not all of them are IRL friends.. which is a bit of a paradox really. Doesn't make cutting ties any easier tho.

On a side note, the more I read the replies from others in this thread, the more I start to think about reconsidering my friendship choices.

Read the link, not familiar with the work described, but I liked it, especially your final verdict. It's harder to look positively at something that is bashed by everyone. Also, really found of the pics v: You have a good taste.

Last-game-4122039
joined Mar 14, 2016

@Galich

On a side note, the more I read the replies from others in this thread, the more I start to think about reconsidering my friendship choices.

I'm on "do not cut tie with your friends" team.

Djltnk3ucaamfms
joined Apr 12, 2016

Too bad she didn't end up with her boss, but them romancing is my cannon.

High-five! I feel the same way! Although I feel like a lot of people do since they're kinda perfect for each other. I'm also pretty sure she's the best boss I've seen in a video game. (I wonder how many people will misinterpret the word 'boss' here.)

Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

Galich posted:

Our quarrels regarding this issue always boil down to refusing to use the right pronouns unless a surgery.

To some people having a dick or vagina is the ultimate proof what sex you are and unless you change that, they won't accept you are the opposite sex (and even then some assholes while still won't accept it), but I don't think everyone who use that logic are necessary bad people. I'm sure they are a lot people who simply are skeptical about your claimed gender and unless you prove you are serious (go through surgery), they prefer to play it safe. Especially in Poland where lgbt awareness isn't that big, I bet a lot people simple don't understand that being trans isn't wanting to be opposite gender but actually being opposite gender. You are female and that is why you feel uncomfortable in your body, because it doesn't match your mind. But they might not understand that it is not just playing pretend but something that can be diagnosed and proven. So now the question is, which kind of people are your friends. If they are truly understanding, then I'm sure if you educate them enough on subject they should change their perception of you. If no, then you are stuck with it until surgery and hope that after it they will truly accept you (if not, ditch them, they are seriously not worth you).

oliver posted:

I mean, in my country, there are men who crossdress as women. We all use female honorifics towards them without them asking us to do so since it's just a common sense.

Well there is difference between cross-dressing and being trans. I'm not really sure if treating them like women without asking is the right thing to do.

Galich posted:

On a side note, the more I read the replies from others in this thread, the more I start to think about reconsidering my friendship choices.

You should. I had friends that didn't even want to treat me than anything more than acquaintance. They only wanted to have fun time with me and didn't care about deeper connection. Our expectations were vastly different so there was no point in keeping that kind of relationship so we cut contacts. You shouldn't lower your standards just so you can have any friends. If there are thing that you aren't able to agree on fundamental level, it isn't going to last anyway.

O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

Having to write this message again, closed the wrong tab. Bloody hell.

@Nevri

To some people having a dick or vagina is the ultimate proof what sex you are and unless you change that, they won't accept you are the opposite sex (and even then some assholes while still won't accept it), but I don't think everyone who use that logic are necessary bad people. I'm sure they are a lot people who simply are skeptical about your claimed gender and unless you prove you are serious (go through surgery), they prefer to play it safe.

I fully understand the reasoning, but the whole concept of "playing it safe" is just alien to me, was even pre-discovery. I mean, it's not like I'll embrace a wrong gender just since they've called me a girl a few times.

At times one part of my body says "if what it takes to win the recognition is a surgery, then so be it", but I'm aware that taking it just for that sole reason is a godawful idea.

I'm guessing that it's mostly people that know me well enough to be used to the way I was before, and not knowing me enough to know when I actually mean something important.

Especially in Poland where lgbt awareness isn't that big, I bet a lot people simple don't understand that being trans isn't wanting to be opposite gender but actually being opposite gender. You are female and that is why you feel uncomfortable in your body, because it doesn't match your mind. But they might not understand that it is not just playing pretend but something that can be diagnosed and proven.

I just want to say that if Dynasty had any sort of reputation system, then I'd totally bump yours just for this part alone. I don't think I've ever heard anyone Polish being so accurate about those things (my uni friend comes second with "you poor thing, trapped inside of this body"; her gf is androgynous, so her knowledge about transgender stuff is pretty decent). Actually, if you don't mind it, I'll save this part as a point of reference for some of more difficult talks.

So now the question is, which kind of people are your friends. If they are truly understanding, then I'm sure if you educate them enough on subject they should change their perception of you. If no, then you are stuck with it until surgery and hope that after it they will truly accept you (if not, ditch them, they are seriously not worth you).

Well, tried the education part for mediocore effects (educated them, sure, but the perception of me is yet to fully change).

Sometimes it leads to some interesting scenarios, like one of my Internet friends (who views me as his best friend) acknowledging me being transgender and even supporting me.. but still refusing to use the right pronouns with good ol' argument of "until you get a surgery". Just for the record, he's not from some backwater eastern Europe country, but Scandinavia.

You should. I had friends that didn't even want to treat me than anything more than acquaintance. They only wanted to have fun time with me and didn't care about deeper connection. Our expectations were vastly different so there was no point in keeping that kind of relationship so we cut contacts. You shouldn't lower your standards just so you can have any friends. If there are thing that you aren't able to agree on fundamental level, it isn't going to last anyway.

I'm on "do not cut tie with your friends" team.

@oliver and Nevri (hope that neither one of you will mind) The acquaintance thing is an issue, sure, but the pronouns thing, which might seem trivial, starts to cloud my judgement and sense of confidence. The more tolerant I am at them being in denial, the less confidence I have. My ability to feel fully confident while speaking in private to friends has mostly died out, still maintaining one allowing me to be very open about being transgender.

Such stupid arguments and their stubborness worsen the gender dysphoria and makes me more miserable. Kind of hard to explain really, I'm sure that others would've done a better job at it.

For now I guess I'll just start to listen to their arguments more closely and try to educate them harder, but who knows how the entire thing's gonna turn out in the long run.

High-five! I feel the same way! Although I feel like a lot of people do since they're kinda perfect for each other. I'm also pretty sure she's the best boss I've seen in a video game. (I wonder how many people will misinterpret the word 'boss' here.)

@LumberingCrane

High-fives So I think! Plus that adorable wallpaper at Jill's phone.. I actually saw people recreate it on the Steam workshop. Such a shame there's not drawings/stories about them.

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 9:20AM

94230567_p0_master1200~2
joined Dec 24, 2014

Read the link, not familiar with the work described, but I liked it, especially your final verdict. It's harder to look positively at something that is bashed by everyone. Also, really found of the pics v: You have a good taste.

Glad you liked the post! ^ O ^ and the pics that I reblog (lol)

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 9:27AM

Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

Galich posted:

Actually, if you don't mind it, I'll save this part as a point of reference for some of more difficult talks.

Go ahead ;3 From what I saw browsing comments on internet that is the part most people have the biggest problem understanding. Also I'm glad my post was of any help ^ ^ All I can do is hope it will work out with your friends in the end, because I agree you shouldn't change your friends the moment you disagree about something. hugs Galich

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 9:29AM

Phpol1pm9_c1pm
joined Feb 3, 2015

@Galich

Imo if it doesn't hurt you too much or affects you too negatively, I'm always for trying first to make them understand their ignorance/mistake. If you really matter to them, they will be willing to try to change their mindset in a timely manner.

But if they are not - they either don't truly care about you or are too stupid... in both cases you will only torment yourself needlessly if you keep them around.
It's you who is important and you have the power to chose your friends^^ it's wiser too chose quality over quantity ;)

hmm..[about the Onee-chan post from the other page]... Thank you! >//< .. but such comments leave me speechless, sis...^^

Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

oliver posted:

There are many people out there who are able to agree with you on an advanced level, but who are you to them? A stranger. They are not your friends, neither would they ever treat you like an acquaintance. They would never want to have fun time with you, nor care about that deeper connection (?) Nevri mentioned. There is no point in keeping your standard too high to be reached by your surrounding people/friends. You want people to accept who you are, you have to be capable of accepting who they are too.

Ok, I'm not sure you got what I meant. Sure, you won't always agree with your friends on some high concepts you could talking to some total strangers on internet. It doesn't make one connection stronger than other. But if you can't even agree on basic concepts that are important for both parties, can you really call it a friendship? If there is stuff that hurts one or both sides and they have to tolerate it I can't really see it lasting. That was the point of example I was making. The language barrier make it a bit harder to explain since in polish "friend" and "acquaintance" has a bit different meaning, but basically I had people who I considered friends and wanted to be closer with, share good and bad etc. but they only saw me as acquaintance, some you can have good time from time to time, but nothing more. They only wanted to share good and didn't want to hear any bad. So no, they didn't care about that deeper connection. Only I did and that is why we parted ways. Because ultimately our basic expectations were different so this relationship couldn't last. I never said to have high standard. I said you should have some standard that you stick to and are not willing to lower simply so you can have any friends. As was mentioned before, I'm for quality over quantity. As you said the accepting thing is on both sides and sure as hell I don't see them trying to accept Galich, rather giving her ultimatum. I don't want make too much assumptions as I don't know their relations in-deep. Ultimately it is up to her what she will do about it. I'm just trying to help her make up her mind by sharing my thoughts and past experiences.

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 12:05PM

O%20tyebye
joined Feb 15, 2016

^ Don't want to play a lawyer here, but I'd say that both of you have very similar views here. After all, both sides argue that ditching all friends with no second thought and education is a bad idea, and that one doesn't have to have surround themselves with people that have the same views. However, the problem starts to arise once a friendship starts to be overshadowed by conflicts. It's the best to try and solve them peacefully, but there might be some differences that make the friendship effectually impossible (for instance, I had to break contact with a friend that became a borderline nazi).

The real issue is, however, when I start to consider a decision I might end up regretting until the very end of my life, just to carry on a friendship. I'd argue that flexibility has to work both sides; I can tolerate them not fully believing me as long as they tolerate me back. At this point, I have to wonder where the line draws; I'll still try to keep up contact, but at this point I really do start to feel flat out uncomfortable around some of my friends, if not flat out unhappy.

Again, it varies from person to person, but in some cases it can really be a deal breaker. Imho the best option here is still being open minded and explaining things, but both sides have to cooperate.

TL;DR Version

I'm on "do not cut tie with your friends" team.

is pretty much the same view as

I agree you shouldn't change your friends the moment you disagree about something.

@Nevri

Go ahead ;3 From what I saw browsing comments on internet that is the part most people have the biggest problem understanding. Also I'm glad my post was of any help ^ ^ All I can do is hope it will work out with your friends in the end, because I agree you shouldn't change your friends the moment you disagree about something. hugs Galich

Cheers! hugs back

Also, the Polish word you were reffering to is kolega/koleżanka, right?

@Blushingkitty

@Galich

Imo if it doesn't hurt you too much or affects you too negatively, I'm always for trying first to make them understand their ignorance/mistake. If you really matter to them, they will be willing to try to change their mindset in a timely manner.

But if they are not - they either don't truly care about you or are too stupid... in both cases you will only torment yourself needlessly if you keep them around.
It's you who is important and you have the power to chose your friends^^ it's wiser too chose quality over quantity ;)

hmm..[about the Onee-chan post from the other page]... Thank you! >//< .. but such comments leave me speechless, sis...^^

Trying my best sis :( If I were able to fully control things, I'd make so it wouldn't bother me at all, or better yet, wake up feeling 100% okay with my assigned gender.

I know for a fact that none of them are doing it for bad reasons.. I mean, I can imagine that shifting their mindset after knowing me for so long has to be a huge shock.

On a more positive tone, things do get better, I've already managed to get some work of them, and looks like with the most cases my work will pay off.

Plus, it's always nice to come here and be fully recognitioned as something I feel as. I do specifically remember your post when I came out here.. it one of those that gave me the courage to keep on pushing, and I don't plan on slowing that. Words cannot describe how much the reception here has helped me cope up with all of this crazyness.

But I'm getting too sentimental here, so I'll just say this: I feel fuzzy when I read the word "sis" in your posts :)

last edited at Oct 10, 2016 2:09PM

Phpol1pm9_c1pm
joined Feb 3, 2015

It appears that I have a job interview tomorrow... ^^''

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