Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

Yeah but people get agitated and start making snarky comments so. I'm still somewhat replying though.

That's one way of measurement amongst many, yes. Remember I'm not arguing that I think this is well written.

Sorry, now I am a little lost. What were you even arguing then? You seemed to deny the claim that the way Shiho is presented in the story versus the way she actually is acting is very inconsistent, which is all I really argued for, all philosophy aside. Whether this inconsistency makes the story good, bad, and if the author intendet it that way can all be topics for future debate. But I don't think we ever established if you even agree or disagree with that assesment.

You came in late. You can go through my comments from the 20th on to see what I was arguing and what I was initially contesting. You could quote something and ask me what I meant if you want. If I did waid into the battle about "quality" the most I said was that the series is better off or improved for having moved in this direction and that some of the other arguments were at their core subjective (*but still valuable), despite the protestations of others. I've however said on multiple occasions that the writing is not nearly perfect, to me. But I wouldn't call my opinions on writing objective. My first comment and main argument earlier was that this shift to Shiho and Ako happened such a long time ago, so I was confused why it still seemed like a fresh wound to some and was still being treated like an arc that would pass. I also talked about how this shift was received by it's core Japanese audience and how that has a lot of worth when discussing writing decisions.

People jumped in and the discussion started shifting and it became clear we'd need a lot more to make sense of it all, which I'm honestly not that interested in. The recent comments from today are about the prevalence of the character type of Shiho in manga and the prevalence of the communal guilt concept in a lot of Asian writing etc. But even that is just going to create more tangents-- some not comfortable with discussing cultural differences and how they might affect what you consider quality or successful writing choices (that's a whole other discussion again and the little I tried to broach the topic it seems I got snark in return?). Would be easier in conversation but this is a lot of typing in between work.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 6:18PM

if i were to be honest i would say a high majority of japanese stories lack a good grasp on moral issues and often display poor understanding when it comes to showing consequences to bad actions.this issue often times forces the characters who are truly innocent into shouldering blame that werent their fault while making the real guilty party through faulty logic appear virtuous.

though in regards to shiho in particular my issue with her is that she is a parasitic character who worsens the quality of the story for the sake of her inclusion instead of further enhancing the story.this is why i would have chosen to follow aki in this arc as she has been established to fuffil her role well and shiho could still get development through her.

And looking at how kyo even after her desth never got a proper apology I highly doubt that neither aki nor the SS girl will receive one

That wouldn't make sense from a narrative perspective nor would it be satisfying to the readers (not even for those who like Shiho so much, like me). I think it's obvious that there will come a point where she will take responsibility for her bad deeds (not that she doesn't know thet a lot of her actions were wrong, but her defense mechanisms have always been stronger until now), apologize to everyone, and redeem himself by the end of the series.

this is why i would have chosen to follow aki in this arc as she has been established to fuffil her role well and shiho could still get development through her.

I think that's partly what's going to happen after the band competition.

It’s kind of funny how in a larger perspective when people question at the whole point of the Shiho issue or existence altogether. When this whole forum is proving why at some point whether it’s executed well or not, there will be a “Shiho” of some sorts added to a story. In a matter of a few days, this forum lit up like New Years Eve, simply just because they want to argue about the good or bad points of a character and the events it follows as if it’s a trial.

At the end of the day, whether consciously or subconsciously our brains attach more to negative things than to positive. Shiho was that to this story, we want to pick off flaws, we want pick a things we feel don’t belong, we could’ve so easily just dropped it and just started reading another. By of course we didn’t, some wants things to turn around positively, some want to see it all burn, and some of us just want to write our analysis and thesis about the whole thing. Whatever it is, It doesn’t matter if it’s good or not, it gets engagement anyways and that attention is what matters in the end. It’s pretty much the whole reason why this manga got picked up for an anime anyways, the whole drama with Shiho has gotten so much attention whether we like it or not. If the story just continued with Yori and Himari’s, even if it’s just nothing but pure unadulterated fluffiness done well, that in itself wouldn’t have made it stand out enough to be noticed for an anime. Things getting adapted only tend to care about pre-existing sales, the trends, or the opportunity to profit of something, just take a look of majority of anime’s getting picked up from subpar yet profitable (harem) light novels.

It’s kind of funny how in a larger perspective when people question at the whole point of the Shiho issue or existence altogether. When this whole forum is proving why at some point whether it’s executed well or not, there will be a “Shiho” of some sorts added to a story. In a matter of a few days, this forum lit up like New Years Eve, simply just because they want to argue about the good or bad points of a character and the events it follows as if it’s a trial.

I think most people here were arguing that shihos inclusion and handling reduces the stories quality, not popularity. Drama does sell.

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 6:40AM

At the end of the day, whether consciously or subconsciously our brains attach more to negative things than to positive.

Yes, think many studies suggest that's the case; though, I wouldn't say "negative" but "challenging," which can be taken negatively, positively or neutrally (subjectively). Challenging stories, people, events, characters, or plots require more mental work to resolve the challenge (to our morals, interests, worldview, literary senses etc) and people will generally demand/desire to resolve that gap differently, using various explanations. So, I wouldn't say it's just that drama sells. Plenty of dramatic works don't sell and drama is not a negative word (though sometimes here it seems it's become synonymous with "here we go again"). There's a few dramatic works that do become successful though and for a variety of reasons (and even those that do sell aren't equally successful). There's something unique about what each of them are doing writing wise and for their audience. Anyway I agree, the earlier story wasn't challenging in any real sense and thus had a more limited appeal or draw (which can be fine). That's part of why I'm really interested in what the anime does. The (western) anime community is not the same as the manga community or even the community on here. With the way MagiRevo has succeeded and also the Witch from Mercury, I'm interested in how some of these others end up. Based on "drama sells," I guess we predict "Yuri is My Job" to best them all if it gets enough episodes.

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 8:05AM

It’s kind of funny how in a larger perspective when people question at the whole point of the Shiho issue or existence altogether. When this whole forum is proving why at some point whether it’s executed well or not, there will be a “Shiho” of some sorts added to a story. In a matter of a few days, this forum lit up like New Years Eve, simply just because they want to argue about the good or bad points of a character and the events it follows as if it’s a trial.

I think most people here were arguing that shihos inclusion and handling reduces the stories quality, not popularity.

I am given to understand that any such notions of “quality” are actually just pretentious (because they presume to pass critical judgment on the author’s intentions), subjective opinions based on “feelings” and “preferences” about the character and are definitively refuted by the popularity of the series among its intended Japanese audience.

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 8:56AM

I am given to understand that any such notions of “quality” are actually just pretentious (because they presume to pass critical judgment on the author’s intentions), subjective opinions based on “feelings” and “preferences” about the character and are definitively refuted by the popularity of the series among its intended Japanese audience.

My word.

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

Yeah but people get agitated and start making snarky comments so. I'm still somewhat replying though.

@ ManuTheBloodedge

This is what I meant when I said its just starting to get snarky and snippy. So yeah maybe next time!

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 3:31PM

I am given to understand that any such notions of “quality” are actually just pretentious (because they presume to pass critical judgment on the author’s intentions), subjective opinions based on “feelings” and “preferences” about the character and are definitively refuted by the popularity of the series among its intended Japanese audience.

My word.

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

Yeah but people get agitated and start making snarky comments so. I'm still somewhat replying though.

@ ManuTheBloodedge

This is what I meant when I said its just starting to get snarky and snippy. So yeah maybe next time!

You've attempted to have it both ways regarding "subjectivity" in this discussion, and the snark is in response to your patent refusal to answer direct questions about the details of the story when people push back against your assertions that arguments about this series are entirely a function of "how much we can sympathize with Shiho" and that "[f]rom a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it."

When challenged to explain what "literary" is supposed to mean in this context (beyond the "subjective" implication "I like it better this way,") you've ignored the question in favor of deflecting the issue of quality into appeals to authorial intent and to your apparent expertise concerning the "intended audience."

It's axiomatic that no literary interpretation or critical judgment (even, or perhaps especially, the author's) is ever "objective" in a scientific sense, and that readings of texts always are preceded by an implicit "I would argue," but by hammering away in general terms at negative criticism of the story's structure and characterization as being "subjective" and a matter of "preference," without addressing the specifics of the critiques (concerning narrative focus, structural proportion, consistency of characterization and motivation, etc.), the discussion inevitably hits a dead end.

Other commenters have said, "The first part was boring, and I like the this a lot better--say what you want about Shiho, she sure makes the story more exciting and interesting." They didn't feel the need to to dress it up as a defense of the author's literary craftsmanship, however.

Y’all hating on Shino got something silly going on. She’s just a fucking teenagers, and y’all are acting like she fucking killed somebody. And to anyone saying “oh well none of the others act like her” because not everybody is the same fucking person. It’s just how opinions are different. You don’t have to like Shino, but making posts about fucking killing her is too far. And if you really hate the drama, just drop the manga, it’s not that hard. Again, you’re entitled to your opinion, but there’s a difference between acting like she should know everything and saying you think she should be different.
People don’t cope in the same ways, you people need to learn that.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

last edited at Mar 22, 2023 5:21PM

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

I love seeing how this discussion thread is still more dramatic and toxic than the story it's discussing, despite all the time that's passed by. People here really love/hate shiho huh

Fr

A thought.

All of the build up to the battle of the bands was under an assumption that “our team” needed to win in order to help Aki and Shiho work things out.

On the other hand, the author could throw a total curveball and have Shiho still WIN the battle… except only after she essentially lost it. They could even argue that she only “won” (performed as well as she did) because she finally came to terms with how she feels.

This could in turn be used as a launch pad for our main couple again, should the author want to go there.

That’s not quite what I expect and like I mentioned before I think the negativity towards this arc is silly, but it is something that I see as a possibility.

I completely agree. I feel that is Shino wins, we’ll have a chance to see our main couple again, but still have the possibility for Shino and Aki to at least come to terms and be friends again. It hurts to see two of my favorite characters pinned against each other, but alas, love isn’t easy.

I haven't read this one since that shiho girl appeared. I just enter from time to time when it gets an update to laugh at the comments lol.

Shit here is crazy

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human characters, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

last edited at Mar 23, 2023 9:34PM

What do you people even gain from sending death threats to a fictional character?

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations.

Lol. No, actually these are fictional constructs simulating human behavior using narrative conventions.

It can be really important to know the difference.

What do you people even gain from sending death threats to a fictional character?

I get paid 100$ per post

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

first of all,these are not human beings at all,these are in fact characters in a story written by a human being.

second of all,humans are flawed which is what makes us human,where upon story characters that are flawed makes them badly written characters.

third and last,i expect every author who picks up the pen to do so with conviction and confidence to portray their image and convey their passion through at the least solid writing and at best great writing.

end note.
the reality is that shiho is a badly written character whether you or anyone else wants to admit this or not is irrelevant to this fact of truth.this was never about feelings or emotions it was always centered around the proof of evidence found within the text of the story itself and how it reflects upon the overall quality of its narrative.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Funny how the "salty"/ "toxic" people that hate shiho are just trying to discuss the structure of the story, nuance of the characters, craftsmanship of the author, etc. While the ones defending it are the ones that started with the snarky comments and straight up strawman
I guess looking critically at a Manga and enjoy talking about it is "toxic" behavior and people should just enjoy it as it is or zip it

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

first of all,these are not human beings at all,these are in fact characters in a story written by a human being.

second of all,humans are flawed which is what makes us human,where upon story characters that are flawed makes them badly written characters.

third and last,i expect every author who picks up the pen to do so with conviction and confidence to portray their image and convey their passion through at the least solid writing and at best great writing.

end note.
the reality is that shiho is a badly written character whether you or anyone else wants to admit this or not is irrelevant to this fact of truth.this was never about feelings or emotions it was always centered around the proof of evidence found within the text of the story itself and how it reflects upon the overall quality of its narrative.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Well, whether fictional humans or not, they’re still flawed.

When story characters are flawed that makes them badly written characters? I’d like you to elaborate on that, do you mean their personality, or how they’re written? /gen

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations.

Lol. No, actually these are fictional constructs simulating human behavior using narrative conventions.

It can be really important to know the difference.

Right, right, I admit I worded that part wrong. I mean that even a character should be flawed, at least in personality. A perfect character would just be boring.