Just saw this. Pretty excellent summation of my issues with what's gone on in the manga. A lot of people hate on Citrus for having artificially created drama, and yet seem to have no issue with Remi performing the exact same function here, what with summoning up interpersonal issues on a whim and then the fact that she was the one who instigated them being completely glossed over by the other characters around her.

TFWAME is at least consistent, stringent and quite believable. You could tell from the very beginning that Remi is a promiscuous person who would try to sleep her way through the cast and they know it too.
Citrus' story is just all over the place (remember Mei's implied (sexual) abuse by a teacher who got exposed by Yuzu and it was never again mentioned again?).

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 4:25PM

From the thread on /u/, thank based Kawaii anon:

Alright, for those who cared to know Amano's thoughts on the characters, here's the whole list:

Interesting, thanks, Is this from a interview with Amano? Gonna reread the thing with this in mind.

While perfect Justice doesn't exist on the real world, people isn't that stupid and passive. Specially on a group of friends like the protagonists.

As for realism, well, realistically at least one of the girls would've called Remi on her bullshit and ditch her by now.

Hm... I don't know, for a while now it's been evident that the girls have been kinda parting ways with Remi without saying anything.

While she hasn't exactly ditched her or stood up to her (other than this latest chapter I guess), Ruki doesn't actively go out on a limb to interact with Remi. I mean, even Meru doesn't seem to be as close to her anymore, now that she has Maasa and her secretary thing going. As for Asuna, we hardly see what she's up to now, but maybe she's focusing all her attention on the daycare; either way she hasn't been seen with Remi in a while.

So while they haven't caused a scene to call Remi out on her actions, they're slowly growing out of the little clique they initially were in at the beginning and moving on with their lives. Maybe they just don't feel it's necessary to confront someone they know is never gonna change. If not for Sachi, I think Remi would be completely alone (with the exception of her booty calls, but I think that's a different matter altogether).

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 4:35PM

I think theres twom types of readers in here, the ones that cant handle villains and the one that can apprciate it.

I love Remi, she gets away with everything. Imlive my evilness through those kinds of folks.
A recent example of this is the Belichick and the patriots. Some people love them some hate them because they cheat and lie and get away with it.
Like I said, i live my darkness through them. And boy does it feel good, just the dark side guys... We have cookies and are detestable human beings but its good for you.

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 4:53PM

Interesting, thanks, Is this from a interview with Amano? Gonna reread the thing with this in mind.

I think it's from stuff at the end of the tank? anon mentioned something about chapter 14, but I'm not sure if it's the afterword or what. I reread it too and it really made such a difference to the impression I got from the story with and without knowing.

Hm... I don't know, for a while now it's been evident that the girls have been kinda parting ways with Remi without saying anything.

While she hasn't exactly ditched her or stood up to her (other than this latest chapter I guess), Ruki doesn't actively go out on a limb to interact with Remi. I mean, even Meru doesn't seem to be as close to her anymore, now that she has Maasa and her secretary thing going. As for Asuna, we hardly see what she's up to now, but maybe she's focusing all her attention on the daycare; either way she hasn't been seen with Remi in a while.

So while they haven't caused a scene to call Remi out on her actions, they're slowly growing out of the little clique they initially were in at the beginning and moving on with their lives. Maybe they just don't feel it's necessary to confront someone they know is never gonna change. If not for Sachi, I think Remi would be completely alone (with the exception of her booty calls, but I think that's a different matter altogether).

I hadn't noticed this at all til you pointed it out, but it's pretty true. I've had more than one friend over the years who I chose to drift away from because they were more trouble than they were worth dealing with. (I don't doubt I've been that friend on occasion either though.)

It stretches credulity that people's REAL problem is with some kind of plot artificiality, when the thing that people keep going back to is "I hate this character and she's not getting her comeuppance like I want!!!"

Although I might have to go back and check to be sure, I remember that most of the longer posts didn't say they hated the character as such and wanted her punished. I think that sentiment was limited to people venting in one-liners.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't want the story to be changed or any sort of come-uppance. It's just that I think that some of the story's elements weren't well composed (from a point in the story with two chapters left). It's a bit of elevated suffering, seeing that Amano is one of the yuri authors you should read. I don't want her to change anything, regret reading it nor do I think it would have been better if she hadn't written it. It's necessary to try out new things in order to improve as an author and broaden your repertoire.

Seeing the list saying which character symbolizes each of the cardinal sins, I can't help but feel that some of the underlying dynamics were not really thought out. Reading Amano's thoughts on the characters and how they are supposed to have to do with the sins, I'm surprised how little what she says actually has to do with cardinal sins, maybe because she is lacking Catholic/Christian exposure. I feel most of the following to be obvious and am not sure if it actually needs to be stated:

1. Pride means that you are guilty of being prideful, thinking you are better than everybody else. Rukia is insecure and hesitant about a lot of things and has her not pride but her self-concept crushed.

2. Envy means you want what other people possess and want to obtain it.

3. Making a girl with an eating disorder (vomitting/binge eating) and a problematic want for relatedness the representation of gluttony. Well, this is a bit hamfisted.

4. Whatever is "wrong" with Fueko, it has nothing to do with spiritual laziness (read: lack of faith) or physical laziness (think of protestant work ethic).

Lust is pretty spot on, but what Amano says connects the other character to their respective sins I didn't pick up on while reading the story.

tl;dr
Nice try, bit flawed. No hard feelings. Better luck next time, Amano!

I think theres twom types of readers in here, the ones that cant handle villains and the one that can apprciate it.

I love Remi, she gets away with everything. Imlive my evilness through those kinds of folks.
A recent example of this is the Belichick and the patriots. Some people love them some hate them because they cheat and lie and get away with it.
Like I said, i live my darkness through them. And boy does it feel good, just the dark side guys... We have cookies and are detestable human beings but its good for you.

Ahm, Gesundheit!, I guess?

So while they haven't caused a scene to call Remi out on her actions, they're slowly growing out of the little clique they initially were in at the beginning and moving on with their lives.

I noticed that it stopped being about a group of friends from chapter 7 onwards but wasn't able to tell if that is actually them growing apart or if we just aren't shown their daily interaction because of length constraints.

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 5:15PM

^ At this point of the story, Sacchan isn't passive anymore

She sleeps with Remi because Remi wants her to, and then agrees with the woman she's having sex with that she's probably not gay. That strikes me as awfully passive.
I do think that underneath it is an anger... it's subtly hinted that she's pretty mad at Ruki for putting her in a position where she feels obligated to date her, whether that's fair or not. But that destructiveness is manifested in passivity.

At least with Happy End, you saw the ending coming, but I agree, it was a pretty terrible (and illogical and random and confusing and just completely out of fucking nowhere) ending.

I think saying you could see it coming and then stating that it came completely out of nowhere negate each other. But I guess as a series about incest you could probably expect it not to end happily. I did still hold out some hope - I liked their romantic relationship considerably more than that in Sakana no Miru Yume. And then my hope was dashed against the salty rocks of mandatory heterosexuality.

Well when I say that you could see it coming I'm referring to the fact that they didn't actuallyget and stay together which was obvious from the start and when I said that it came out of fucking nowhere I'm referring to the ACTUAL FUCKING GUY SHE WOUND UP GODFUCKINGDAMN MARRYING lol.

There were underlying issues beforehand, yes, but I doubt Sachi would've gone out and slept with a woman consistently for a month if Remi hadn't made the first move, and Remi herself said she got into it specifically because she wanted to see Ruki get screwed over from being so earnest.

....but Sachi sleeping with Remi was the symptom and not the cause. Frankly, I kind of don't see why people think Sachi sleeping with Remi for a month is all that important, except as a sign of the rot in her and Ruki's relationship.

Plus, I don't necessarily think it's "avoidance" for her to see a mark on Sachi and not want to seem like she's being controlling/pushy like Sachi's ex, either. She's trying to be considerate where her ex wasn't, and doesn't want to be paranoid by freaking out over something that might be nothing. Bearing in mind that when she did get more concrete proof that Sachi had been fooling around, her first action was to confront the issue and talk to Remi about it.

Ruki isn't avoidant because she doesn't accuse Sachi of cheating on her; she's avoidant because she throws herself into work to keep from having to confront that Sachi's not very much into her. That's pretty explicit. They have no kind of relationship at all, and Ruki's half of why that limbo is being perpetuated.

I've already said that I find Sachi worse than Remi in this particular instance, though, but that doesn't remove the fact that Remi has been central to nearly every single piece of drama in this work, and the writing has moved to accommodate her continued involvement in the friend group, despite all of the shit she's persistently putting everyone through. You expect the readers to believe that nobody would get sick of it and confront her? That tests my ability to suspend disbelief, especially after what happened to Meru.

Again, I don't see how Remi's been central to every piece of drama. She's not even central to this one, though she certainly is a catalyst for what comes next. She MAYBE can be partly credited with Ruki aditting her feelings for Sachi, but other than that, I don't get where this idea that she's the driver of the entire plot is coming from.

Unless you think the plot here begins and ends with "Sachi cheats on Ruki," which it doesn't.

And finally... all I can say is, Remi's been kind of mean, but wanting her Villainized and cast out would be the OPPOSITE of having more realistic and nuanced storytelling. She's got her bad parts, but she also has good parts that her friends appreciate, not even to mention social inertia. Frankly, it'd be hard for me to suspend my disbelief if she did get confronted the way people want.

^ At this point of the story, Sacchan isn't passive anymore

She sleeps with Remi because Remi wants her to, and then agrees with the woman she's having sex with that she's probably not gay. That strikes me as awfully passive.
I do think that underneath it is an anger... it's subtly hinted that she's pretty mad at Ruki for putting her in a position where she feels obligated to date her, whether that's fair or not. But that destructiveness is manifested in passivity.

Spoiller for next chapter
Sacchi slept with Remi because she wanted to try being the one cheating if recall right, she wanted to be the one leading => trying not to be the passive one and do what she decide to do
And in my opinion Ruki did absolutely nothing for that to happen, she's totally out of cause. It all comes from Sacchi's past relationship

i don't Know where all of you get that sacchi is angry ta Ruki,on the contrary she find Ruki to good for her x)
What's more sacchi Nevers says she's not gay

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 7:36PM

....but Sachi sleeping with Remi was the symptom and not the cause. Frankly, I kind of don't see why people think Sachi sleeping with Remi for a month is all that important, except as a sign of the rot in her and Ruki's relationship.

Symptom of what? Cause of what?

And Sachi and Ruki were in an implied relationship (and tbh if your long-standing friend confesses to you and you go ahead and have sex with them, I think it's safe to assume that counts as agreeing to a relationship without one of them having to explicitly say "from this point on we are in an exclusive romantic relationship" and considering Sachi said she wants to cheat, it's clear that she considers it a relationship as well), so it's obvious why people think that's an important plot point. The author does, clearly, since that's a large part of the current chapters.

Ruki isn't avoidant because she doesn't accuse Sachi of cheating on her; she's avoidant because she throws herself into work to keep from having to confront that Sachi's not very much into her. That's pretty explicit. They have no kind of relationship at all, and Ruki's half of why that limbo is being perpetuated.

I don't really understand why that's "avoidant", tbh. She thinks Sachi needs space after her ex, and she's trying to give it to her, while working doing other things. No doubt trying to keep her mind off of negative thoughts is a part of it, since she shows hesitance about mailing her about getting the license, but there seems to be more of a genuine desire to prove how she's not like her asshole boyfriend more than "I'm going to deliberately not talk to her bc I don't want to think about her".

Again, I don't see how Remi's been central to every piece of drama. She's not even central to this one, though she certainly is a catalyst for what comes next. She MAYBE can be partly credited with Ruki aditting her feelings for Sachi, but other than that, I don't get where this idea that she's the driver of the entire plot is coming from.

Unless you think the plot here begins and ends with "Sachi cheats on Ruki," which it doesn't.

Being a catalyst is definitely pretty central. Without the catalyst, the reaction would never happen, and she's been a catalyst in pretty much a lot of the drama that's going on. This seems to be concurred by other posters on the thread, too, since I've seen Remi's status as a plot device given as a reason for why people like her, as well.

And finally... all I can say is, Remi's been kind of mean, but wanting her Villainized and cast out would be the OPPOSITE of having more realistic and nuanced storytelling. She's got her bad parts, but she also has good parts that her friends appreciate, not even to mention social inertia. Frankly, it'd be hard for me to suspend my disbelief if she did get confronted the way people want.

I don't get the impression that people want her villianised. I think they just want to see some actual response to what she's doing. Even when Ruki is confronting her about cheating, she basically gives up halfway through and says "ok then" and leaves it at that, and then Remi is even shown to be justified in what she did in that Sachi says it was necessary for her to learn to ~protect~ Ruki. A giant hammer coming down and punting her ass into the ocean would be satisfying for some, I'm sure, but it would be no less hamfisted than what's going on now.

That's what people have an issue with. That everything she does is either ignored by the people in-universe and/or is actually shown to be the right course of action, even though her motivation and actions have pretty much been pure dickishness. It's the sheer allowance that Shuninta has given her actions that make a her badly written plot device, and that's why I feel like she's a character that should've been handled better.

Edit: Sorry for the bad grammar guys it's past midnight here.

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 7:12PM

I don't really care that Sachi cheated with Remi nor do I think Remi is a bad character for being an instigator. I think Remia is a plot device machine. She has no real background, no real character development. If Shuninta wanted her to be the catalyst for everybody getting through their issues (however unrealistic that shit is) then fine, but at least sell me on her. Let me know her background, what made her that way. Give me SOMETHING. Damn.

Symptom of what? Cause of what?

And Sachi and Ruki were in an implied relationship (and tbh if your long-standing friend confesses to you and you go ahead and have sex with them, I think it's safe to assume that counts as agreeing to a relationship without one of them having to explicitly say "from this point on we are in an exclusive romantic relationship" and considering Sachi said she wants to cheat, it's clear that she considers it a relationship as well), so it's obvious why people think that's an important plot point. The author does, clearly, since that's a large part of the current chapters.

Symptom of their rotten relationship.
And yeah... you're putting in very good words exactly HOW their relationship is terrible: Sachi had no desire to be in the relationship (and doesn't really know what she wants, period). Sachi is mad about the position Ruki put her in (though is still grateful) and is finding the easiest way possible to lash out at her. Ruki pressured a vulnerable Sachi and then retreated into work and refused to actually talk to her about things, instead hoping everything would just be okay. Remi can't control herself from poking at wounds, even when she's trying to help. It sucks, and all three of them are terrible communicators and are in a bad situation. But it's also earned and consistent with the way the characters have been set up.

Being a catalyst is definitely pretty central. Without the catalyst, the reaction would never happen, and she's been a catalyst in pretty much a lot of the drama that's going on. This seems to be concurred by other posters on the thread, too, since I've seen Remi's status as a plot device given as a reason for why people like her, as well.

Like what? WHAT drama has she been the catalyst for other than whatever happens in the next chapter? I couldn't really find anything when I reread it today.
Remi's just barely a catalyst here; she's just another in a long string of people who Sachi has humored sexually. The difference is, and this is the one plot point she's actually responsible for, is that she goes out of her way to point out this pattern to Ruki.

I don't get the impression that people want her villianised. I think they just want to see some actual response to what she's doing. Even when Ruki is confronting her about cheating, she basically gives up halfway through and says "ok then" and leaves it at that, and then Remi is even shown to be justified in what she did in that Sachi says it was necessary for her to learn to ~protect~ Ruki. A giant hammer coming down and punting her ass into the ocean would be satisfying for some, I'm sure, but it would be no less hamfisted than what's going on now.

That's what people have an issue with. That everything she does is either ignored by the people in-universe and/or is actually shown to be the right course of action, even though her motivation and actions have pretty much been pure dickishness. It's the sheer allowance that Shuninta has given her actions that make a her badly written plot device, and that's why I feel like she's a character that should've been handled better.

I honestly don't see Remi as being all that terrible, except for what she did to Meeru's bully, so I can't relate to any sense that the other characters need to reject her or justice will not be served. The fact that people are simultaneously trying to make the point that Remi is written poorly and that Remi IS TERRIBLE, I'm having a hard time not believing that the latter is influencing the former.
Honestly? that scene where Ruki has sex with Sachi is a way bigger punch in the gut for me than anything Remi's done. If you can read that and still see Ruki as purely innocent here, then you're reading this manga way differently than I am.

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 10:38PM

Honestly? that scene where Ruki has sex with Sachi is a way bigger punch in the gut for me than anything Remi's done. If you can read that and still see Ruki as purely innocent here, then you're reading this manga way differently than I am.

Yeah, that scene has always made me feel so deeply uncomfortable. What makes me laugh though is the "Things became unclear between us.". I think things were already pretty unclear.

But when I really think about it as well, I've been the Sachi in relationships before. (Not that I've actually cheated on anyone.) I've gone out with people because they were into me and I didn't dislike them and it made me feel good to be wanted. And in the end I hurt them, because they had feelings for me that I didn't reciprocate. When we broke up I felt bad for hurting them, but never sad about the relationship coming to an end, and really, that was all on me, I think. I don't see what my Rukis ever did wrong really, except hope for something I couldn't give them.

Man, I just had the shittiest epiphany ever.

last edited at Feb 6, 2015 11:24PM

I already pointed out that this was wrong earlier in this thread.

From the thread on /u/, thank based Kawaii anon:

Alright, for those who cared to know Amano's thoughts on the characters, here's the whole list:

Ruki = Pride
First name: Lucifer (Luci). Last name: lion.

"When I think of how many times she got her pride crushed, she ended up becoming quite the wimp in the end. Her hair style resembles a lion’s mane."

Sachi = Wrath
First name: Satan (Sacchan -> Satan)
Last name: Wolf

"When I think of wrath, punishing people by punching them always comes to my mind so I made her a violent character.
The ends of her hair are pointy, making her resemble a wolf slightly."

Fueko = Sloth
First name: Belphegor. Last name: bear

"I thought of her as a hibernating bear. Because she is lazy, she keeps her hair styled as a bob so she can style and trim it at home without the hassle of going to a hairdresser."

Asuna = Lust
First name: Asmodeus. Last name: goat.

"It seems like Yagi-san’s letter never reaches its recipient (vol 2). I thought of making her pupils more wide and rectangular like a goat, but it looked really disgusting so I dropped the idea. I feel that girls with monolids look cute too."

Maasa = Greed
First name: Mammon. Last name: fox.

"At first, I had initially created a scenario where she racked up a huge gambling debt, and saved herself borrowing her parents’ money. I think handsome, rich girls with talent are simply the best. She’s actually the youngest one in the group."
So, Maasa is probably her favorite.

Meru = Gluttony
First name: Beelzebub. Last name: pig.

"When I first tried to design her character, it resulted in an empty, broken girl clinging to a fake smile. My editor said, 'She must be really ill…', and that decided it."

Remia = Envy
First name: Leviathan (Levia). Last name: snake

"She is not envious of others, but she enjoys having others be envious of her. She is the oldest one, so she acts like an older sister, but is in reality the type that can’t grow up. She has the pupils of a snake."

my post only mixed up the two, but was right with all the rest
wrong

Anon pls.
anyway, thanks for insightful artist commentary, I never knew for sure that it was a thing, thought that all the/u/discussions with sin theory were based on pure speculation.
Glad to know everyone's name references, for I only knew about Remia being leviathan before, also noticed that she indeed has that senpai/onee-san complex. And yeah, never actually paid attention to their surnames! Maybe except for Asuna - I knew her being Yagi has something to do with desire, since goat is Bacchus sacred animal and Bacchus is quite a promisquous deity.
Sasuga Amano-sensei, she never gives any of her heroes a random name with no second meaning, just like AI being Philos in Philosophia.

Oh, and I also had some random versions about their hairstyles, glad this turned out to have relevance too!
Btw, someone up there in this thread has posted an animal chart of the girls, everyone seemed to be spot on except for Asuna who was given a "cow" label instead of "goat"

I what an update come on be fast about it cause am losing my mind......!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha, Amano is good. :) She knows how to shake up her audience. xD

I already pointed out that this was wrong earlier in this thread.

From the thread on /u/, thank based Kawaii anon:

Alright, for those who cared to know Amano's thoughts on the characters, here's the whole list:

Ruki = Pride
First name: Lucifer (Luci). Last name: lion.

"When I think of how many times she got her pride crushed, she ended up becoming quite the wimp in the end. Her hair style resembles a lion’s mane."

Sachi = Wrath
First name: Satan (Sacchan -> Satan)
Last name: Wolf

"When I think of wrath, punishing people by punching them always comes to my mind so I made her a violent character.
The ends of her hair are pointy, making her resemble a wolf slightly."

Fueko = Sloth
First name: Belphegor. Last name: bear

"I thought of her as a hibernating bear. Because she is lazy, she keeps her hair styled as a bob so she can style and trim it at home without the hassle of going to a hairdresser."

Asuna = Lust
First name: Asmodeus. Last name: goat.

"It seems like Yagi-san’s letter never reaches its recipient (vol 2). I thought of making her pupils more wide and rectangular like a goat, but it looked really disgusting so I dropped the idea. I feel that girls with monolids look cute too."

Maasa = Greed
First name: Mammon. Last name: fox.

"At first, I had initially created a scenario where she racked up a huge gambling debt, and saved herself borrowing her parents’ money. I think handsome, rich girls with talent are simply the best. She’s actually the youngest one in the group."
So, Maasa is probably her favorite.

Meru = Gluttony
First name: Beelzebub. Last name: pig.

"When I first tried to design her character, it resulted in an empty, broken girl clinging to a fake smile. My editor said, 'She must be really ill…', and that decided it."

Remia = Envy
First name: Leviathan (Levia). Last name: snake

"She is not envious of others, but she enjoys having others be envious of her. She is the oldest one, so she acts like an older sister, but is in reality the type that can’t grow up. She has the pupils of a snake."

my post only mixed up the two, but was right with all the rest
wrong

Anon pls.
anyway, thanks for insightful artist commentary, I never knew for sure that it was a thing, thought that all the/u/discussions with sin theory were based on pure speculation.
Glad to know everyone's name references, for I only knew about Remia being leviathan before, also noticed that she indeed has that senpai/onee-san complex. And yeah, never actually paid attention to their surnames! Maybe except for Asuna - I knew her being Yagi has something to do with desire, since goat is Bacchus sacred animal and Bacchus is quite a promisquous deity.
Sasuga Amano-sensei, she never gives any of her heroes a random name with no second meaning, just like AI being Philos in Philosophia.

Oh, and I also had some random versions about their hairstyles, glad this turned out to have relevance too!
Btw, someone up there in this thread has posted an animal chart of the girls, everyone seemed to be spot on except for Asuna who was given a "cow" label instead of "goat"

woa... awesome. you guys are pros

I like the remi character eventhough shes a horrible bitch . She keeps it interesting. .

This is such a roller coaster of emotions , and every time I read a chapter I get really tired lol as if my mind is just telling me to stop reading this . I am thankful that the amount of drama and emotions that's in this series has no real bearing in a real life situation, or at least if it does thankfully I never had to go through anything like this.

I don't want this to end

Well Chapter 13 was a little disappointing
"I slept with Remi, it was fun. It also helped me realize I want to protect you."
At least get a little mad that your girlfriend just said that cheating was fun...

Well Chapter 13 was a little disappointing
"I slept with Remi, it was fun. It also helped me realize I want to protect you."
At least get a little mad that your girlfriend just said that cheating was fun...

Honestly, it could've been worse. And I don't really think Sachi meant it that way.

Well Chapter 13 was a little disappointing
"I slept with Remi, it was fun. It also helped me realize I want to protect you."
At least get a little mad that your girlfriend just said that cheating was fun...

Honestly, it could've been worse. And I don't really think Sachi meant it that way.

At least things got resolved I suppose
it's just how she said she fooled around and did a bunch of naughty stuff with Remi, how she was interested in what it felt like to cheat, and that sex you have because you want it is fun.
Sacchan's just like "I realized, I'm a bad girl. I'm not the goodie little two-shoes you thought I was babe."
Then Ruki still accepts her. It would have been more satisfied if she expressed some remorse for cheating. She even said she didn't think about how she wanted to protect Ruki until she saw her crying while driving. Like what was she thinking of Ruki before then