It’s years of that coupled with sexual assault that did nothing but mold her into Turtle Mei.

To me this has precisely the same status as saying, “It’s years of that coupled with the fact that Mei’s mother was an ice demon that did nothing but mold her into Turtle Mei.”

Nothing in the text contradicts my statement, it is congruent with Mei’s behavior in the story, and there’s no less evidence in the text for my statement than there is for yours.

Nothing in the text contradicts you but nothing supports you either. The sexual assault has actual evidence (very little, but it's still there if you squint) that you just dismiss for no apparent reason other than "that's not enough"

last edited at Sep 23, 2021 6:17PM

Nothing in the text contradicts you but nothing supports you either. The sexual assault has actual evidence (very little, but it's still there if you squint) that you just dismiss for no apparent reason other than "that's not enough"

The concrete evidence in text we have is in no way shape or form commensurate with what the lurid telenovela fanfiction in question requires and thus arbitrarily presumes. Which really should be a reason apparent enough.

Is this all because of the lack of progress? Or because they went from Yuzu removing Mei's clothes in ch32 of Citrus to barely few kisses in Citrus+?

Because June 2nd of Citrus+ p17 contains a pretty clear statement about Saburouta ignoring all the previous progress in their relationship.

You can't make any theory about their behavior after such a break in internal consistency, which was lampshaded by Matsuri's reaction. If the author doesn't give a crap about such a big thing, I doubt your details will lead you anywhere.

last edited at Sep 23, 2021 6:54PM

I probably have just finished reading Citrus for the 6th times. I finally found something that we all probably miss.
In the original series in Chapter 8, Mei was looking at a family photo. Page 15, 16, & 17. Mei's mother is in the photo. (Shou, Mei, and Mei's mother).
That is so unusual because her normal photo is always Shou, Mei, and Grandfather. I wonder why she looks at that photo at that moment as opposed to the one with grandfather in it, instead of her mom.

I probably have just finished reading Citrus for the 6th times. I finally found something that we all probably miss.
In the original series in Chapter 8, Mei was looking at a family photo. Page 15, 16, & 17. Mei's mother is in the photo. (Shou, Mei, and Mei's mother).
That is so unusual because her normal photo is always Shou, Mei, and Grandfather. I wonder why she looks at that photo at that moment as opposed to the one with grandfather in it, instead of her mom.

Interesting. Since you’ve just been through the whole thing, were there any other significant references to Mei’s mother?

To my recollection, she’s a lot like Huck Finn’s mother in Mark Twain’s novel—by definition she must have existed, but we learn next to nothing about her.

I probably have just finished reading Citrus for the 6th times. I finally found something that we all probably miss.
In the original series in Chapter 8, Mei was looking at a family photo. Page 15, 16, & 17. Mei's mother is in the photo. (Shou, Mei, and Mei's mother).
That is so unusual because her normal photo is always Shou, Mei, and Grandfather. I wonder why she looks at that photo at that moment as opposed to the one with grandfather in it, instead of her mom.

Interesting. Since you’ve just been through the whole thing, were there any other significant references to Mei’s mother?

To my recollection, she’s a lot like Huck Finn’s mother in Mark Twain’s novel—by definition she must have existed, but we learn next to nothing about her.

I don't want to read it for the 7th time. That are 13+ volumes, maybe some other day. But Mei stated (Chapter 7 Pg 32) that she chose Shou instead of her mom when they divorced. As everyone knows, she worships Shou, because he put the school in front of his own happiness. That was how she accepted the divorce. She decided to take over the school (at the age of 11, 5th year at elementary school!!!), until Shou comes back. Because of that, pg 33 explains that she would do ANYTHING to protect the school, with a background panel of Amamiya and Gramps. She lost her purpose in life. She then wants to have sex with Yuzu, for the first time, and Yuzu did the right thing for refusing it. That sequence also explains it all. But how come the mom was never there except in a photo with a very young Mei for merely 3 pages I have no idea. There was neither direct reference, nor something that maybe you can guess. It is like a black hole. Also, Mei's mom is shown wearing traditional outfit (Yukata) in the photo.
Mei's belief comes from the old Shou. Yuzu's belief is backed up by the current Shou.

I probably have just finished reading Citrus for the 6th times. I finally found something that we all probably miss.
In the original series in Chapter 8, Mei was looking at a family photo. Page 15, 16, & 17. Mei's mother is in the photo. (Shou, Mei, and Mei's mother).
That is so unusual because her normal photo is always Shou, Mei, and Grandfather. I wonder why she looks at that photo at that moment as opposed to the one with grandfather in it, instead of her mom.

Interesting. Since you’ve just been through the whole thing, were there any other significant references to Mei’s mother?

To my recollection, she’s a lot like Huck Finn’s mother in Mark Twain’s novel—by definition she must have existed, but we learn next to nothing about her.

I don't want to read it for the 7th time. That are 13+ volumes, maybe some other day. But Mei stated (Chapter 7 Pg 32) that she chose Shou instead of her mom when they divorced. As everyone knows, she worships Shou, because he put the school in front of his own happiness. That was how she accepted the divorce. She decided to take over the school (at the age of 11, 5th year at elementary school!!!), until Shou comes back. Because of that, pg 33 explains that she would do ANYTHING to protect the school, with a background panel of Amamiya and Gramps. She lost her purpose in life. She then wants to have sex with Yuzu, for the first time, and Yuzu did the right thing for refusing it. That sequence also explains it all. But how come the mom was never there except in a photo with a very young Mei for merely 3 pages I have no idea. There was neither direct reference, nor something that maybe you can guess. It is like a black hole. Also, Mei's mom is shown wearing traditional outfit (Yukata) in the photo.
Mei's belief comes from the old Shou. Yuzu's belief is backed up by the current Shou.

You know what I've always wanted to know about her mother because I figured she'd have some kind of plot significance at some point in the story. I thought in like the last few chapters of O.G Citrus she'd make some kind of surprise appearance (shame it didn't happen)

You know what I've always wanted to know about her mother because I figured she'd have some kind of plot significance at some point in the story. I thought in like the last few chapters of O.G Citrus she'd make some kind of surprise appearance (shame it didn't happen)

Wasted potential, in my Citrus?!

You know what I've always wanted to know about her mother because I figured she'd have some kind of plot significance at some point in the story. I thought in like the last few chapters of
O.G Citrus she'd make some kind of surprise appearance (shame it didn't happen)

What kind of mom is that who does not show up at her daughter's wedding? You go even if your ex-husband has remarried. You go there for your daughter. Well, it will be a no show, as the final chapter-epilogue wedding scene shows (and no, the chance of her still inside the chapel is smaller than Sayaka and Miyabi still inside the chapel)
Yes, I counted and identified everyone in the wedding scene. Even Mineko (in a lot of school systems over the world, she would be referred as a dean) and their home room teacher show up. The only person who is not there is Grandma Taniguchi.

last edited at Oct 2, 2021 4:59AM

What kind of mom is that who does not show up at her daughter's wedding?

The kind the author sorta kinda forgot existed, I'd wager.

What kind of mom is that who does not show up at her daughter's wedding?

The kind the author sorta kinda forgot existed, I'd wager.

It's part of the "Chasing Shiny Objects" School of Narrative Plotting.

"Look--it's Shirapon! Ooh . . ." (exit to fireworks festival, stage left.)

I don't recall when was the last time Yuzu said things that are so complex and mature about relationships in such a way that Mei can understand. November issue P.20-21. Even I have never thought about that, I bet a lot of couples also never think about the reason...and do it anyway.

last edited at Oct 2, 2021 4:43AM

Can someone give another translation for Mei's "Thanks to this experience.." large panel? "Okagede tsuka ete ita mono ga toretaki ga suruwa" The page before the final page.

Yuzu should break up with Mei. She just give her more without any reciprocate. My heart is breaks for Yuzu to see her suffering.
Mei had a week to do her f work, forgot her fiancée's birthday and not even try to change or be better for sake of Yuzu. Maybe a little bit... but It feels a truly one sided love.
Mei character is not improved, morover is worse than before, still an emotionally crippled person who would screw with anybody who is pushing her a little bit, like happened with Amemiya sensei. About Yuzu... Yuzu is an intresting toy for her which is recently discovered, do not know what to do with it, where to place it, so... when needed she takes out, when not, put back into the drawer.

I hope you are joking because... Yuzu isn’t* suffering, I think her smiles at Mei(talking about work) is like a wholesome smile. In a way Yuzu likes it when Mei is studious. Mei didn’t forget about Yuzu’s birthday, their mother had business to do so she was going to delay the celebration; she had Mei tell Yuzu. Needless to say, Yuzu was pretty bummed out about it. But no one forgot anything. And lastly, tell me what you have against Kuuderes.

This response is to Nari: You are in denial, Citrus has been an unending chain of suffering and angst with Mei completely neglecting Yuzu's feelings on and of countless times. Mei forced herself on Yuzu the 1st time she saw her leaving Yuzu emotionally crippled (the first kiss). That is why Yuzu would run so many times from Mei. Mei ran with Suzuran leaving Yuzu completely heartbroken and mad with angst and jealousy. Mei had an affair with Himeko in ch 5 original and there was another Himeko episode in ch5 citrus plus. (citrus_june_15th#11).
ch38#30 Yuzu completely broken sobbing uncontrollably says "I dont know what to do anymore"
ch41#14 Mei tells Yuzu "I really hate you"
ch39#11 Yuzu's mom tells her "the future you chose can be more painful than you can imagine"
These were just a few slides by-the-way
And as far as some fans wanting a sexual scene (because you mentioned that) I actually agree with you that such moments can not be forced. Yet you must understand any other manga out there produces 2 , 3 chapters per month Citrus is 8 years old and over 63 chapters and yet we still dont have a satisfying relationship between MC's. Its very frustrating when you wait and wait for a mariage for some romance and it leads nowhere. When you read a manga you should not feel so frustrated and bewildered and angry.

last edited at Oct 28, 2021 7:48AM

^ Look, I’m as willing to accuse this series of crappy writing as anyone—more than most people here, probably. But those assertions about Himeko are flat-out wrong.

I don’t even have to re-read that early chapter to know that Mei never remotely had “an affair” with Himeko—Himeko, jealous of the budding relationship between Mei and Yuzu, comes on to Mei in a sexual way, and Mei rebuffs her.

And in the Citrus+ chapter, Himeko is explicitly all-in for supporting Mei’s relationship with Yuzu, who explicitly has no jealousy toward Himeko at that point.

I’ve seen lots of readers tie themselves in knots or fly through the headcanon stratosphere trying to assert that Mei has been a consistently written, psychologically coherent character throughout these two series rather than blame Saburouta for being a sloppy, inattentive plotter.

But textual facts are facts, and that stuff about Himeko is simply counterfactual.

EDIT: In fact, that Citrus + chapter is nothing but 100% Himeko’s formal coronation as Eternal Empress of the Friendzone.

last edited at Oct 28, 2021 8:43AM

^ Look, I’m as willing to accuse this series of crappy writing as anyone—more than most people here, probably. But those assertions about Himeko are flat-out wrong.

I don’t even have to re-read that early chapter to know that Mei never remotely had “an affair” with Himeko—Himeko, jealous of the budding relationship between Mei and Yuzu, comes on to Mei in a sexual way, and Mei rebuffs her.

And in the Citrus+ chapter, Himeko is explicitly all-in for supporting Mei’s relationship with Yuzu, who explicitly has no jealousy toward Himeko at that point.

I’ve seen lots of readers tie themselves in knots or fly through the headcanon stratosphere trying to assert that Mei has been a consistently written, psychologically coherent character throughout these two series rather than blame Saburouta for being a sloppy, inattentive plotter.

But textual facts are facts, and that stuff about Himeko is simply counterfactual.

EDIT: In fact, that Citrus + chapter is nothing but 100% Himeko’s formal coronation as Eternal Empress of the Friendzone.

Of course everyone has the right to their opinions but that is not what I understood and saw when reading both ch 5 original and ch5 citrus plus. I never posted my analysis on Citrus plus june 15 (chapter5) entitled “A smile only I know" because I dont want to freak people out but even in original ch 5 Himeko's hand going under Mei's skirt there is nothing friendly about it. If need be I would have to upload even earlier chapters such as the entire Suzuran arc. I lost interest in Citrus and simply did not want to finish it. The last chapter the august 19 was just nerve-wracking with Mei consciously throwing herself in work simply because she does not want any emotional commitment. You are correct the recent chapters show a Himeko totaly suportive and totally friendly but she was not always like that. Himeko was quite jealous and quite rapey back in her day. Its very misleading as if the characters including Mei have changed beyond recognition. Read https://www.reddit.com/r/CitrusManga/comments/7yvok2/citrus_manga_aihara_mei_may_have_been_sexually/, its but a start of the real Citrus. I really wanted those two to be happy but its just too much. I understand Mei's character that she was neglected and forced literally as a tool in 2 arranged marriages and she never received any love any consideration (until Yuzu) and purely been abandoned by her both parents with her father refusing to take any responsibility in the dynastic university family business but such a relationship where Yuzu's support is 200% and Mei is simply content with denial would never work. And this has been dragging on now for years. Mei's job was suppose to be her father's she ended up sacrificing herself and completely broke up with Yuzu because of being brainwashed to function like a robot ch36-40. Its part of the reason she worked all day without any consideration to Yuzu's feelings on her bday(last ch). Its all much too negative, I need to be literally giddy and ecstatic after reading Yuri romance because its suppose to be pure love and yet I get panic attacks instead. Citrus has never been a lovey-dovey story!

last edited at Oct 28, 2021 4:10PM

Its very misleading as if the characters including Mei have changed beyond recognition.

There's no "as if" about it--this series started out being much edgier about sexuality and with more extreme characters, but it very quickly ratcheted its tone and general ethos back considerably. Look at all the characters, in addition to Mei herself, who were first introduced as being at least slightly sinister or threatening to the MC's relationship who were very quickly rehabilitated (some might say nerfed) into cuddly allies of the MCs: most obviously the near-psychopathic Matsuri, as well as Hurumin's sister and Shirapon.

And the statement "Mei had an affair with Himeko in ch 5" is not a matter of "opinion"--it is a flat-out falsehood that is contradicted by every level of the text.

Himeko comes on to Mei who rejects her and later tells Yuzu, "There's nothing between Himeko and me." It simply can't get any plainer than that. Anyone who reads an affair between Mei and Himeko into that chapter (or any other part of either series) is hallucinating.

last edited at Oct 28, 2021 6:39PM

And the statement "Mei had an affair with Himeko in ch 5" is not a matter of "opinion"--it is a flat-out falsehood that is contradicted by every level of the text.

Himeko comes on to Mei who rejects her and later tells Yuzu, "There's nothing between Himeko and me." It simply can't get any plainer than that. Anyone who reads an affair between Mei and Himeko into that chapter (or any other part of either series) is hallucinating.

I am not certain to what factual evidence you are looking for however, it is nearly impossible in everyday life to find such evidence when it comes to a spouse or lover, and this is Saburouta we are talking about so you are not gonna find absolute proof of Mei cheating Yuzu. Perhaps in the case of Himeko she was simply bragging about crossing the line with Mei but that was not my impression my feeling as well as a correlation with Mei's character when it comes to being dominated. When Himeko touched her, or Matsuri later on, Mei always became extremely aroused becoming very submissive in both cases. https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch11#28 Mei was willing to sleep with a stranger in Matsuri arc just to hide from Yuzu who she truly is. There is also an arc with Suzuran when Mei literally runs away with her. She comes home very late and all the sexual tension gained that day (https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch27#34) is gone, Mei tells Yuzu "I've already resolved that" https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch28#21. I really really hope I am wrong but how do you resolve sexual tension do you know? Yuzu on the other hand says "but I havent resolved anything," which is true because Yuzu had not been with anyone (unlike Mei). Saburuota gives no explanation whatsoever what happened between Mei and Suzuran in that night. Suzupon tells Yuzu later on"the conclusion is I got dumped ch28#31) but you see you have to be in a relationship to get dumped to begin with, which IMO was the 1 night stand before. At least that is what I felt and understood.

Back to the himeko arc here is some of my reasoning:

1) ch05#30 Mei does not oppose any resistance to Momo's advances and while Saburouta did not show any after slides Mei was/is as always submissive. Mei was actually trembling with a look which clearly suggested she was seriously aroused. Since Mei arrives that night very late, unless she managed to gain immediately perfect composure it is clearly implied that they had sex.

2) Mei finds it very easy to lie to Yuzu so no sorry I dont believe her.

3) ch05#34 “Well then I hope we have your eternal support” says Himeko with an unmistakable look of victory on her face touching her lips with the very fingers she used to cross the threshold with Mei.
No, I don’t think Himeko was lying (in that scene) she would not brag and glow like that unless it was the truth. Furthermore, Mei and Himeko have been more than friends even before ch5 original because Himeko says while touching Mei ch05#29 "but i am behaving just as I normally do."

Anyway in short that is what I saw and felt and understood. Perhaps I saw connections where evil was averted and Mei escaped unscathed but I dont really believe it so!

last edited at Nov 4, 2021 8:25AM

Mei and Himeko had sex in Chapter 5,—LOL

You’ve done an outstanding job of illustrating how headcanon can turn into hallucination—reject everything the text explicitly says and shows, and draw complex inferences from what it doesn’t.

By all means enjoy the movie running in your head—it’s a doozy.

And please keep going with it—pretty soon the only person in the series Mei won’t have had sex with will be Yuzu.

last edited at Oct 28, 2021 9:53PM

And please keep going with it—pretty soon the only person in the series Mei won’t have had sex with will be Yuzu.

It is not my doing. Sabu has set all kinds of ridiculous barriers, all kinds of psychological problems, all kinds of aangst, and drama and suffering and tormenting experiences, years of waiting, and all kinds of friends inviting themselves in Yuzu‘s Mei relationship destroying their life and every expectation they might have (Himeko, Suzuran, 2 arranged marriages etc). Citrus could have been amazing in fact:

Yuzu says “these are the clothes Mei was wearing earlier, Mei’s body emits a very delicious scent. Oh no I’ve become a pervert .” https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch21#13
Yuzu is burning with passion and love and Mei is teasing her by pretending not to notice how Yuzu is avoiding her gaze, only to confront Yuzu head on by bending over her and edging ever closer literally boiling her blood of want and happiness; Mei says "you are finally willing to look into my eyes." https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch21#20 Yuzu monologues “ I cant take it any more, I am going to die of happiness “

And now that Mei and Yuzu are alone what do we have? An oblivious Mei, to anything even remotely associated with love, or emotion or sexual experience (compare it with ch 21). Mei made it clear from the beginning she has sexual experience! Why is she acting now as if she has no clue whatsoever about physical contact when yuzu is trying to be affectionate?

Its why I stopped caring, if Sabu does not care, why should we? Why couldnt Citrus be like Yagate Kimi Ni Naru with a solid flow of romance which finalizes into a pure fulfilling relationship? We all wanted those 2 to be happy but Sabu is simply not willing (or not able) to deliver. Did Citrus not start with the premise of a steamy love affair?

last edited at Oct 30, 2021 2:36AM

And no we are not interested in some sleazy stupid porn. We just wanted romance and love!

The mere mention of porn in a discussion of citrus is the most interesting thing that could have happened here, really

The mere mention of porn

Someone else mentioned that before or I would not have brought it up, poor choice of words on my part.

It's a fundamental aspect of narrative that important events have important consequences, if not immediately, soon enough after they occur that readers will be able to remember that they happened.

I think we would all probably agree that Mei having had sex with (in fact, in vtudor22's reading, been coerced into sex by) her closest childhood friend in a public classroom as well as having had a one-night stand (most likely in some semi-public place), with the mysterious new returning student both would count as "important events" in this particular story.

And yet the only implied consequence of these supposed events is that Mei, who has always had a strong mopey streak, is now being especially mopey, and has also embarked on a program of pre-marital chastity, developments which have been given multiple overt explanations within the text, without any need for recourse to reading tea leaves about what happened in scenes we've never actually seen and which have never been referred to again.

On one thing we do agree: Citrus could have been amazing. We even seem to agree on a major reason it isn't so amazing: Saburouta tends to be a dithering, inattentive writer, one prone to taking the story off on tangents that haven't been fully set up and to abandoning elements that have previously been established. As those traits suggest, Saburouta definitely has shown herself to not be the kind of excessively subtle writer who would embed important and complex story points in off-panel scenes that readers never see or ever even hear about.

last edited at Oct 29, 2021 9:55AM

important events - semi public place

As far as important events being canon, I wanted to caution you a bit that we have never been offered an explanation to what happened between Mei and Suzuran in ch 28 love exe. I don’t know why would Saburouta omit such slides in a time when it mattered most. It is extremely frustrating. I would have paid or begged to see those slides more than any other Citrus chapter.

I am not sure if it is Matsuri or Saburouta laughing at us when Matsuri giggling at Yuzu says “Did your senpai take Mei home with her?” https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch28#15 Ahm yeah, that was not fun at all. To me the darkest chapter in Yuzu’s life has been in fact that arc. The point is we don’t know what happened, that's all!

last edited at Oct 30, 2021 5:59AM

important events - semi public place

As far as important events being canon, I wanted to caution you a bit that we have never been offered an explanation to what happened between Mei and Suzuran in ch 28 love exe.

This may be the most hilarious post in the history of Dynasty.

Occam’s Razor suggests that we’re not told exactly what happened between them because nothing important happened.