its as much a Tragedy as the Society™️ we live in

Isn't it comedy? I thought it was pretty funny till I read the comments

From what I can tell, the story is trying to be comedic by inverting the traditional gentle mistress x assertive maid dynamic that's common in yuri stories by having the mistress act like a 'top', which in this case is basically abusing her authority to get what she wants. You could derive some schadenfreude from it, but the maid's reaction and the ending suggests that we're supposed to read this as romantic. Many people find it rather abusive and manipulative instead, especially since the mistress x maid dynamic in general is already fraught with somewhat dicey dynamics that require nuanced writing to address. Most folks, bottoms or not, definitely wouldn't want to get coerced by their employers, which inhibits their ability to laugh at a situation they consider painful, as well as their willingness to find any romance within what is essentially blackmail. Many have brought up the 'It's Just Fiction' defense, but if the issue is that is scenario is almost uncomfortably realistic, and pulls readers out of their elegant Victorian fantasies of mistress x maid and into the horrors of labour under abusive employers.

As a parallel example, teacher x student stories are quite popular with yuri readers, but most of these stories feature an assertive student vs. a shy teacher, creating a subversion that's entertaining and not overtly problematic. You could try to reverse the dynamic and have the teacher be aggressive and predatory while the student is unwilling, but that would obviously set many people off. Even if the student 'submits' to the 'top energy' of the teacher in the end, it'd be seen as an effect of grooming rather than a successful, fulfilling romantic arc.

Personally, I like content that subverts dynamics, but only if the writers have the competence, subtlety and space to address these subversions and portray them accurately. This four-page story, however, either suffers from a lack of self-awareness or is actively trying to fetishize a clearly unequal dynamic. Some like it, others (myself included), don't. Ergo, comment section warfare.

its as much a Tragedy as the Society™️ we live in

Calling the writer incompetent because you can't comprehend what a full-face blush, pounding heart, and a freaking lightning bolt imply is a bit harsh. Manga is a visual medium and they put every possible visual cue into indicating that the maid was genuinely infatuated, but it seems like it's not enough unless there's a dialogue bubble spelling out "please jump my bones, mistress". Not to mention, the thing she was supposedly coerced to do... was go on a date to eat ice cream together. This isn't exactly sexual assault.

I can't fathom how this comic is this controversial here when there's been a deluge of "wholesome" prostitution manga lately that nobody minds. Somehow women selling themselves to survive having a romantic experience with somebody who is literally buying their body is pure and fluffy, but dog forbid an employee consensually go on an innocent date with her employer. Even then, there are dozens of maid/mistress or other employee/employer that nobody really complain about, but it seems like people are hellbent on deliberately misinterpreting this one.

Calling the writer incompetent because you can't comprehend what a full-face blush, pounding heart, and a freaking lightning bolt imply is a bit harsh. Manga is a visual medium and they put every possible visual cue into indicating that the maid was genuinely infatuated, but it seems like it's not enough unless there's a dialogue bubble spelling out "please jump my bones, mistress". Not to mention, the thing she was supposedly coerced to do... was go on a date to eat ice cream together. This isn't exactly sexual assault.

I can't fathom how this comic is this controversial here when there's been a deluge of "wholesome" prostitution manga lately that nobody minds. Somehow women selling themselves to survive having a romantic experience with somebody who is literally buying their body is pure and fluffy, but dog forbid an employee consensually go on an innocent date with her employer. Even then, there are dozens of maid/mistress or other employee/employer that nobody really complain about, but it seems like people are hellbent on deliberately misinterpreting this one.

Thank you.

I think the premise is on some level alright, but to me the problem is actually in the execution. I read the manga as the mistress commanding the maid to give her a real answer to her next approach, and then bringing the top energy. But I think the flow of the conversation and the specific words used made it seem like she was commanding the maid to go out with her, which is... eh.

On the one hand, I agree with Kirin (as usual) that without the support to keep everything in the realm of fantasy, you run the risk of your scenario resonating with real abuses of power that makes it feel like oppression, rather than sexy fantasy ones á la a BDSM scene. My interpretation--that she was only, "commanding" the maid to give her a direct answer--might be wrong, but if it's right, I think we have less of a case of abuse of power and more of the author/TL team (I can't read JP so I wouldn't know) possibly flubbing the delivery into squick territory.

With that in mind, I think it becomes a question of execution.

Not like the girl has any actual power here you know - the maid's employers are her parents not her, and what with being a minor and all she as-such has no say in the matter. Tellingly the maid's objections revolve entirely around sensible worries over getting sacked for any funny business with the young lady; said lady's possible disappointment and/or ire do not appear to be a concern.

Rather the point would seem to be that the miss changing tack and T-posing to assert dominance "assuming privilege" that she doesn't actually even possess makes the older girl go weak at the knees, dry in the mouth and likely moist... somewhere else. It's practically speaking roleplay that, evidently, hits all her fetishesbuttons.

Calling the writer incompetent because you can't comprehend what a full-face blush, pounding heart, and a freaking lightning bolt imply is a bit harsh. Manga is a visual medium and they put every possible visual cue into indicating that the maid was genuinely infatuated

Was anyone really arguing that the maid wasn't infatuated, though? Rather, the entire discussion from the crowd who dislike it almost entirely revolves around the playful "blackmail" angle, or a personal distaste for rich top x maid ("poor") bottom. As Kirin notes there's a very good reason that gap stories, even in manga, strongly tend to empower the less well-stationed.

That said, while this thread certainly appears to be a complete outlier, I don't really have much patience for it. No 4 page oneshot demands discussion this divisive, heated, and disrespectful. It's disappointing.

*sigh*

Don't know why I even bothered. Oh right, referencing a CyberBug meme is why.

Was anyone really arguing that the maid wasn't infatuated, though? Rather, the entire discussion from the crowd who dislike it almost entirely revolves around the playful "blackmail" angle [...]

---

The maid's worries and reaction are completely irrelevant.

By saying that she was coerced, I believe people were de facto arguing she wasn't infatuated and, in my opinion, whether or not she is infatuated is the crux of everything. I can't agree that it's not relevant - to the contrary, it's the single most important factor. Consent is the entire difference between something being acceptable or not.

If you were to ignore the context and feelings of the M partner, and say that only the actions of the S partner matter, then the S partner tying her partner up would be criminal. But, if the M partner wants to be tied up, the action of tying her up goes from creepy and awful to kinky and fun. Context is everything.

The maid is super into the mistress being assertive, and that's what makes it okay. It's not - by definition, can't be - coercion if she wants it, and the visual cues indicate that she very much does want it.

I think the premise is on some level alright, but to me the problem is actually in the execution. I read the manga as the mistress commanding the maid to give her a real answer to her next approach, and then bringing the top energy. But I think the flow of the conversation and the specific words used made it seem like she was commanding the maid to go out with her, which is... eh.

On the one hand, I agree with Kirin (as usual) that without the support to keep everything in the realm of fantasy, you run the risk of your scenario resonating with real abuses of power that makes it feel like oppression, rather than sexy fantasy ones á la a BDSM scene. My interpretation--that she was only, "commanding" the maid to give her a direct answer--might be wrong, but if it's right, I think we have less of a case of abuse of power and more of the author/TL team (I can't read JP so I wouldn't know) possibly flubbing the delivery into squick territory.

With that in mind, I think it becomes a question of execution.

I suspect that's a large part of the problem. I've seen another piece, with a similar dynamic and less obviously appreciative maid, that somehow felt less abusive and I think I can point to a few key differences.

One is definitely context. The other piece is strait up hentai, which gives it a different feel, but neither piece is meant to be taken particularly seriously, so I'm not sure how much that actually matters in this case.

The next obvious difference is the length. The other piece is short, but it's still a bit longer at 12 pages, which gives the dynamic more room to breathe; there's room for byplay, as well as an ebb and flow of control. Conversely, this work spends it's first page on a strong rejection, it's second on an even stronger reason for that rejection, and it's third page is a threat based off the reason from the second page. There are only two positive panels and they come at the very end. Put another way, three quarters of the work is progressively more negative and the last 6th is trying to reverse that.

The final, and probably biggest, difference is the lack of nuance. (Yes, that does mean I'm saying literal porn has more nuance in its presentation than this.) That's not necessarily a bad thing, on it's own, it just causes some problems here.

Because of its brevity, each panel needs to do a lot and part of how the author tried to accomplish this was an emphasis on somewhat exaggerated reactions. This works great for conveying strong, pure, emotions, but it doesn't really have the bandwidth for underlying feelings or gradual changes.

Again, exaggerated reactions and a focus on one emotion at a time can work really well, when used correctly. However, in this case, it undercuts the Maids acceptance, because it feels so disconnected from her earlier reactions and we don't see a gradual shift to bring her to that point.What's more, the very final panel undercuts her change of heart by partially breaking from the prior trend. Sure, she's still blushing and eating ice-cream on a date, but she's also confused about how she got there and clearly frowning. It's a fairly classic gag, but it's also one of the only panels with mixed emotions.

Earlier, when I said there were only two positive panels? That was only partially true, because there's only one fully positive panel and it's sandwiched between a strongly negative one and an ambivalent one, which removes most of it's impact.

[Complaints about moralizing.]

Given what I just said, I feel like I should clarify:

I'm perfectly aware this isn't a serious story. I'm not saying it should be taken as one, nor am I saying people who enjoy it are bad or wrong; I'm not even saying the author is bad or wrong. Mainly, what I'm saying is I didn't like the story and I'm trying to analyze why and where it went wrong, because I enjoy analyzing literature and figuring out how its pieces work together. Even short, non-serious, pieces can exhibit craftsmanship and teach us about writing and how we view the world we live in.

Not like the girl has any actual power here you know - the maid's employers are her parents not her, and what with being a minor and all she as-such has no say in the matter. Tellingly the maid's objections revolve entirely around sensible worries over getting sacked for any funny business with the young lady; said lady's possible disappointment and/or ire do not appear to be a concern.

Nominally, you are correct: On paper, the girl probably does not have the authority to fire the maid. However, in practice, the reverse is true: Parents that raise a child to be as entitled as this one (at least in some interpretations), are also likely to side with their child over the help, either because they don't care about the later or because they're two worried about pleasing the former. What's more, even if the parents are more reasonable, the girl could still cause the maid quite a bit of trouble. At a minimum, she could lie and say the maid was flirting with her, which would be very inappropriate behavior for any employee, let alone an adult employee (remember, the rich girl isn't an adult). They wouldn't even need to fully believe the lie, just that their daughter felt like the maid was flirting with her.

That might not fit if your interpretation of the girl is less malicious and entitled, but if that's the case you also don't need "she technically doesn't have the authority" as a defense. It's the kind of argument that only works when you don't need it.

If you were to ignore the context and feelings of the M partner, and say that only the actions of the S partner matter, then the S partner tying her partner up would be criminal. But, if the M partner wants to be tied up, the action of tying her up goes from creepy and awful to kinky and fun. Context is everything.

The maid is super into the mistress being assertive, and that's what makes it okay. It's not - by definition, can't be - coercion if she wants it, and the visual cues indicate that she very much does want it.

That's only partially true. Consent is definitely a major factor, but it's not the only factor and there are certain scenarios where it can be overridden. Most notably, a child can't consent to an adult, nor can an inebriated person fully consent to someone who's sober*. One thing that can cause that sort of situation is an inherent and enduring power difference, where one party is largely dependent or at the mercy of the other.

That type of power imbalance is a stark contrast to a normal S/M relationship, where the sub has a significant say in what's acceptable and what's not.

*: Those examples are, perhaps, a bit extreme for what we're discussing, but my other go to example would be a manager sexually harassing a subordinate that finds them attractive, which is a bit too close to the manga to be helpful.

last edited at Jan 2, 2021 4:01AM

Overwhelming sexual harrassment/entitled rich girl energy

Power harassment/abuse of authority is the term you're looking for here.

Really LOVE that this is the first conversation we have in this forum. Thank you for pointing that out and all the serious business we can debate after an "apparently innocent" manga. I love this community

Most notably, a child can't consent to an adult, nor can an inebriated person fully consent to someone who's sober*. One thing that can cause that sort of situation is an inherent and enduring power difference, where one party is largely dependent or at the mercy of the other.

This is a fair counterpoint to my statement that consent is absolute, but the power difference at hand here is very debateable. If anything, I would tend towards assuming the maid is the one with the power advantage, because maids that are in charge of children tend to act as an extension of the parent's authority. Also, it's hard to tell what with manga art style being ambiguous, but it was my impression that the maid is older than her.

Now, depending on context, my default assumption of the maid having power over her charge could be reversed -- but in the context given, I feel like the objections that have been raised are bordering on fanfiction. If she is entitled, if she is acting maliciously and not playfully, if her parents are deferential to her, then she has a power advantage over the maid. That's a lot of ifs, and not a lot to substantiate those assumptions.

I would already default to not assuming the worst of both her and the author, in other words I would expect to see evidence that she is awful and not need evidence that she's good-natured, but indeed I think there is evidence of the latter anyways. From the first two pages, she seems to fit into a more docile and well-mannered ojousama archetype than a spoiled brat ojousama archetype. And the maid's reaction is also a key piece of evidence -- the fact that the maid does not react in a manner that indicates she feels threatened speaks volumes about the seriousness of the supposed coercion. There's also the fact that the 'demand' was very innocent in nature - she wanted to go on dates like eating ice cream together, not force herself onto the maid.

Without evidence to the contrary, I think we should be giving the author the benefit of the doubt that they didn't write this comic about an awful rich girl exploiting someone but instead wrote a fun gag about a sub fantasy. If you disagree with my default assumptions -- if your default assumption is that the author is a terrible person who wrote about a terrible character, indulging themselves in a power fantasy of dominating a servant, and that you'll need strong evidence to the contrary to challenge that assumption, I suppose that would explain the controversial nature of this comic and I doubt anyone will be able to come to an agreement.

Overwhelming sexual harrassment/entitled rich girl energy

Power harassment/abuse of authority is the term you're looking for here.

Really LOVE that this is the first conversation we have in this forum. Thank you for pointing that out and all the serious business we can debate after an "apparently innocent" manga. I love this community

Can't tell if you're serious or you're mocking me here. In any case, I was just being facetious in that comment.

It's funny how no one were complaining about the Angel series from Negom but when it comes to this 4-pages one-shot, people are being harsh over nothing. I mean the mistress "only" used her authority to receive an answer from her maid, she's not forcing her to go out with her and the maid seemed to like it (the whole being more assertive is to please/flirt with her maid, showing her side of her that's "hotter").

Anyway I enjoyed it, it was cute.

last edited at Jan 2, 2021 5:33AM

Without evidence to the contrary, I think we should be giving the author the benefit of the doubt that they didn't write this comic about an awful rich girl exploiting someone but instead wrote a fun gag about a sub fantasy. If you disagree with my default assumptions -- if your default assumption is that the author is a terrible person who wrote about a terrible character, indulging themselves in a power fantasy of dominating a servant, and that you'll need strong evidence to the contrary to challenge that assumption, I suppose that would explain the controversial nature of this comic and I doubt anyone will be able to come to an agreement.

I mean, there is the possibility for a middle ground between 'I like the author and think they're innocent' and 'I hate the author and think they're terrible'. Like I said before, this story lacks self-awareness- it uses the themes of coercion and blackmail from employers to comedic and romantic effect, framing them as 'top energy' (God, I'm starting to hate that term). It's the same as manga from the 90s that had male protagonists flip a girl's skirt for 'comedy' and to indicate that he was interested in her, or manga that features parents smashing saucepans into the heads of chibi versions of their kids. It's obvious that the authors there were not blatant harassers or abusers- they simply framed problematic behavior as comedic and expected audiences to laugh along instead of taking it 'seriously'.

But to people who've been in these situations or people who want to empathize with the characters, it's extremely hard to read through such content. They can't draw a line between the 'comedic' version of a person who acts like a harasser and the 'romantic' version that's actually a loving partner, because reality doesn't work that way, and actions have weight and consequences. They can't see a happy ending and reinterpret everything that led up to it as positive. If the manga was a complete comedy about a maid getting bullied by her mistress, then some might laugh at it. If it was a serious romance that fully explored its themes, then people might connect with it. But the problem most people have is that the story is trying to have its maid and blackmail it too, and that gap can't be resolved in their minds.

TL;DR: The author thought up a fun premise for a 4 page story and developed it without thinking about the implications. So they're not a terrible person or an angel- at best, I'd say they're like a yaoi manga author doing the 'I fell in love with an asshole rapist seme' plotline in 2020.

last edited at Jan 2, 2021 5:49AM

TL;DR: The author thought up a fun premise for a 4 page story and developed it without thinking about the implications. So they're not a terrible person or an angel- at best, I'd say they're like a yaoi manga author doing the 'I fell in love with an asshole rapist seme' plotline in 2020.

Kawauchi is one of the most "progressive" Japanese yuri authors out there at the moment. There are still some works from her that we haven't got around to translating, but I only have respect for her work knowing that she has the ability to take what people would usually call "trite" tropes in yuri and subverting them. You can say that you dislike her work and you find the themes she used disagreeable, but to say that she "did not think about the implications" is very callous of you, to be honest. Japan is a very different country from the US and others, and I'd appreciate it if people stop demanding that Japanese people adhere to their own personal beliefs. That is all.

last edited at Jan 2, 2021 6:13AM

No this is absolutely power harrasment. Also "it's Popular on pixiv" really doesn't mean much.

Kawauchi is one of the most "progressive" Japanese yuri authors out there at the moment. There are still some works from her that we haven't got around to translating, but I only have respect for her work knowing that she has the ability to take what people would usually call "trite" tropes in yuri and subverting them. You can say that you dislike her work and you find the themes she used disagreeable, but to say that she "did not think about the implications" is very callous of you, to be honest. Japan is a very different country from the US and others, and I'd appreciate it if people stop demanding that Japanese people adhere to their own personal beliefs. That is all.

As much as I admire your impassioned defense of the author, I'd advise you to look through the comments here once again. There are comments that call it a trainwreck, comments that say it's badly written, and comments that call it a gag manga that you aren't supposed to take seriously. Not one of them has mentioned anything 'progressive' about the story. So unless we're all idiots here, I'd say the author's progressive tendencies haven't made their way into this particular work. Perhaps there'll come a story by Kawauchi in the future that makes me revere her as a genius, and in that case, I'll sing her praises from the rooftops. But this definitely won't be it.

Your point about the Japanese way of life is also hilariously shallow, because you haven't provided any context that would recontextualize this story from a Japanese perspective and rid us of our stereotypes. Instead, you've made a blanket statement that typecasts everyone who dislikes the story as an insensitive foreigner forcing their ideas onto a local work. If you were to provide something more than the broadest of strokes, I'd defer to your expertise as the scanlator. But all I'm finding right now are unfounded generalizations.

If people want to like this story, that's fine. I have nothing against them. But when they attempt to attack my and others' very real problem with it and try to de-legitimize it, or to mock us, yeah, you're going to get the teeth back.

Kawauchi is one of the most "progressive" Japanese yuri authors out there at the moment. There are still some works from her that we haven't got around to translating, but I only have respect for her work knowing that she has the ability to take what people would usually call "trite" tropes in yuri and subverting them. You can say that you dislike her work and you find the themes she used disagreeable, but to say that she "did not think about the implications" is very callous of you, to be honest. Japan is a very different country from the US and others, and I'd appreciate it if people stop demanding that Japanese people adhere to their own personal beliefs. That is all.

As much as I admire your impassioned defense of the author, I'd advise you to look through the comments here once again. There are comments that call it a trainwreck, comments that say it's badly written, and comments that call it a gag manga that you aren't supposed to take seriously. Not one of them has mentioned anything 'progressive' about the story. So unless we're all idiots here, I'd say the author's progressive tendencies haven't made their way into this particular work. Perhaps there'll come a story by Kawauchi in the future that makes me revere her as a genius, and in that case, I'll sing her praises from the rooftops. But this definitely won't be it.

Your point about the Japanese way of life is also hilariously shallow, because you haven't provided any context that would recontextualize this story from a Japanese perspective and rid us of our stereotypes. Instead, you've made a blanket statement that typecasts everyone who dislikes the story as an insensitive foreigner forcing their ideas onto a local work. If you were to provide something more than the broadest of strokes, I'd defer to your expertise as the scanlator. But all I'm finding right now are unfounded generalizations.

Note that I put "progressive" in quotes here because what you westerners consider progressive and what the Japanese think is progressive are very different. This work is created by a Japanese person for a Japanese audience, so it's part of someone who's not familiar with how Japanese hierarchical culture works to do their due diligence to get a better understanding of the nuances involved in works like these. As some comments already pointed out, ONLY HERE in Dynasty do you get so many mean-spirited comments towards the work or even the author herself. In Japan, or heck, most of Asia, minor power play like this is often seen as a turn-on by a lot of people due to this hierarchical societal structure, hence the "Top Energy" part. You see this trope everywhere - manga, K-Dramas and even telenovelas in my own country. You demanding that I provide context for you to understand a story that you are responsible for reacting to is honestly insulting, but here you go.
And besides, the rich girl isn't even demanding that the maid go out with her, just to answer her confession. You have no way of knowing how said rich girl would react upon rejection of the request. I also would like to note that you only noted comments that fit your argument in your response, ignoring all the others that call you out on what they perceive as your lack of cultural sensibility. Again, I'd like to say, I'd appreciate it if you don't demand people from other cultures to adhere to your value system. I hope that's clear enough for everyone here.

Looks like the marxist ideas, blur your reading comprehension. The mistress does not uses her power to force the maid to go out with her, she uses them to get an answer, because the maid wanted to avoid answering. If you pay attention the maid never says that she doesn't want to go out with her, but she never says that they're both womens, or she doesn't like her. She just says that she can't because she doesn't want to lose her job. And she throbs and blushes to hell when the mistress reveals her "top" attitude.

Note that I put "progressive" in quotes here because what you westerners consider progressive and what the Japanese think is progressive are very different. This work is created by a Japanese person for a Japanese audience, so it's part of someone who's not familiar with how Japanese hierarchical culture works to do their due diligence to get a better understanding of the nuances involved in works like these. As some comments already pointed out, ONLY HERE in Dynasty do you get so many mean-spirited comments towards the work or even the author herself. In Japan, or heck, most of Asia, minor power play like this is often seen as a turn-on by a lot of people due to this hierarchical societal structure, hence the "Top Energy" part. You see this trope everywhere - manga, K-Dramas and even telenovelas in my own country. You demanding that I provide context for you to understand a story that you are responsible for reacting to is honestly insulting, but here you go.

As an Asian, the 'you Westerner!' really makes me chuckle. You're not particularly good at providing substantiative evidence of any sort, but declaring that an entire continent is into 'minor power play' is such a sweeping generalization that I can't even get offended. To try to position yourself as a glorious defender of a culture while stereotyping everyone who disagrees is one of the finest examples of irony I've found in recent memory. You've honestly entertained me more than the actual manga in question, so thanks for that. As for your arguments, they're dead in the water, so I'm not going to waste any more time levelling with someone swinging a Persecution Complex bat around instead of making critically sound points.

Thanks for the scanlation, though. Now I'm going to head over to a diplomatic embassy and see if I can convince someone from a first-world country that I'm actually a 'Westerner'.

This is getting seriously tiresome. Thread is locked for the time being.

All right, a few things.

One. There are many ways of saying "I don't like this" without resorting to derogatory language, attacking anyone involved in its production, or attacking others users for not sharing in your same sensibilities. I would highly suggest acquainting oneself with those means, lest your posting privileges be revoked.

Two. Comments in the vein of "lol Dynasty," "imagine getting upset at a doujin," etc. are not constructive and better left unsaid. Yes, humour can often be found in behaviour that strikes us as sensitive or strange. No, overly-generalizing comments that serve only to dismiss or mock are never welcome.

Three, Alice Cheshire already covered the basics 3 pages ago, then again 2 pages ago.

This thread is for discussion of this oneshot. If you have a specific complaint about someone's (or a group's) behavior then voice it constructively or simply don't post at all. It adds nothing to the thread. A lot of the discussion so far has been toeing the line when it comes to rules #1 and #11.

Some chose to willfully ignore this warning, and continued with the same adversarial posting. In the future there will not be a second or third opportunity, such behaviour will not be tolerated. When a mod instructs you to cease, that is not open to interpretation. Should you choose to ignore that warning, you do so at your own peril.

Thank you for reading. Take care.