Comments have a right to criticize other comments.

Infinite recursion applies to that. Comments have an equal right to criticize the critique etc. soooo...

that has to be one of the worst ending ive ever seen , such a slow paced manga with a rushed ending ...

This definitely wasn't the kind of story some people were hoping for.

But it was all in the title from the beginning. What's to be surprised or disgruntled about?

But it was all in the title from the beginning. What's to be surprised or disgruntled about?

Disappointing waste of potential is disappointing.

This definitely wasn't the kind of story some people were hoping for.

But it was all in the title from the beginning. What's to be surprised or disgruntled about?

Personally, I'm pissed that Uta never got over her love of Kaoru and continued to pine after her for waaaay too long. The author could have made a great ending if they had Uta meet a girl in college that made her blush, and ended up becoming friends and possibly more than friends with her. Hanging on to the same crush for years upon years, whether it was eventually reciprocated or not, is just sad and depressing. It's basically celebrating being extremely emotionally unhealthy.

This definitely wasn't the kind of story some people were hoping for.

But it was all in the title from the beginning. What's to be surprised or disgruntled about?

You haven't been reading the forum, I take it. The outcome of the story is not the problem--the whole series has suffered from poor pacing, wandering focus, and erratic development.

Then the ending just skips over the entire rationale for the story--what exactly happens between Kaoru and Uta once Numbnuts Husband is out of the picture?

"They get together. Somehow. And for some unstated reason. And their current life is happy, in some unspecified way. We can tell this because Kaoru smiles and says 'Welcome Home!' to Uta."

"They get together. Somehow. And for some unstated reason. And their current life is happy, in some unspecified way. We can tell this because Kaoru smiles and says 'Welcome Home!' to Uta."

A whizzard may have dunnit

random posted:

"They get together. Somehow. And for some unstated reason. And their current life is happy, in some unspecified way. We can tell this because Kaoru smiles and says 'Welcome Home!' to Uta."

A whizzard may have dunnit

It was all a dream!

Then the ending just skips over the entire rationale for the story--what exactly happens between Kaoru and Uta once Numbnuts Husband is out of the picture?

"They get together. Somehow. And for some unstated reason. And their current life is happy, in some unspecified way. We can tell this because Kaoru smiles and says 'Welcome Home!' to Uta."

It is pretty clear that the author was determined not to commit to whether they end up as a romantic couple or a platonic one. In that context there wasn't much "more" they could do, any detail is bound up in one of the options (although I can't help feel that a non-committed ending should not have time skipped to a point where they presumably had resolved things one way or another - that is just teasing us).

last edited at Oct 21, 2020 5:30PM

I think it was a pretty well put together ending. The only thing that's not completely clear is whether they are just living together or are together, but that's not necessarily a key point.

Kaoru found herself while living for herself, which was necessary to show that now she will do what she wants, not what she feels she should, or what her mother would want her to do.

Uta went to uni, seen more of the world, met more people, and with new knowledge reforged her conviction of waiting for Kaoru, giving those feelings more legitimacy and maturity.

Within a few more years Uta and Kaoru met again and are, presumably, together.

I don't see any need to expand on gap years, it's mostly self-explanatory as to what happened from other dialogue. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss as to what more people would want to see. I think being more explicit in unnecessary points would be to the detriment of the story.

I broadly agree, the story was about the emotional arc/personal growth, not about getting them together or not; how it ends is just a detail (although a detail that it would have been nice to know, not least because "don't ask, don't tell" is a nasty reminder of homophobia).

Sometimes in these forums I get the feeling that for a lot of people the story is just an unfortunate overhead in the way of getting to the girl-on-girl action, existing only to "justify" that end.

Then the ending just skips over the entire rationale for the story--what exactly happens between Kaoru and Uta once Numbnuts Husband is out of the picture?

"They get together. Somehow. And for some unstated reason. And their current life is happy, in some unspecified way. We can tell this because Kaoru smiles and says 'Welcome Home!' to Uta."

It is pretty clear that the author was determined not to commit to whether they end up as a romantic couple or a platonic one. In that context there wasn't much "more" they could do, any detail is bound up in one of the options (although I can't help feel that a non-committed ending should not have time skipped to a point where they presumably had resolved things one way or another - that is just teasing us).

Yeah, agreed. In that case, leaving us basically at the end of the previous chapter would have been okay, maybe with a little more development—they really want to be together again, and where it goes remains to be seen.

But this weird grownup ménage with Rei in the same apartment building under uncertain emotional conditions, I dunno . . .

I broadly agree, the story was about the emotional arc/personal growth, not about getting them together or not;

Had those emotional arcs been fully completed, I wouldn’t (actually did not) particularly care how the outcome fell out one way or the other. But the ending is a cop-out on that score as well.

last edited at Oct 21, 2020 11:19PM

I have agreed all along in these discussions that readers are capable of making up material in their own heads that will enable this story to make sense--readers have in fact expended enormous amounts of imaginative labor doing so.

But I don't think anybody can point to one single piece of evidence contained in the actual text itself that Kaoru has ever had any sexual interest in girls generally or in Uta in particular. We do know, however, that she has had a serious and long-lived interest in heterosexual relationships, and we have seen her in sexual situations with her husband.

If the story means for us to believe that she has now developed romantic feelings for Uta, that means that we have had dozens of chapters showing in great detail Kaoru's growing awareness that her marriage was unsatisfactory, and exactly zero panels depicting her romantic/sexual feelings toward Uta.

Relationship**s**? I know it is a limitation of grammar, but let's not lose sight of the fact that it is just the one, and with special circumstances. Not much of a sample. When has Kaoru shown any sexual interest in anyone who wasn't Reiichi? As you say, the series has dwelt at length on how that was far from a case of simple uncomplicated het-attraction (a bad case of idolizing her onii-san). Not that prior het relationships have any bearing on the credibility of wlw in the first place.

I suspect this entire issue is a bit pointless, since I'm pretty sure the main reason for the lack of material on Kaoru's orientation (especially in the last chapter) is that the author was avoiding committing to a romantic outcome vs sororal.

The last chapter makes it very clear that Kaoru cherishes Uta's love for her, she even blushes when she talks about it. Her friends would presume she is talking about a hypothetical prince charming, but we know she is talking about Uta. That is about as far as it can go without committing to a romantic outcome.

It is pretty clear that the author was determined not to commit to whether they end up as a romantic couple or a platonic one. In that context there wasn't much "more" they could do, any detail is bound up in one of the options (although I can't help feel that a non-committed ending should not have time skipped to a point where they presumably had resolved things one way or another - that is just teasing us).

Yeah, agreed. In that case, leaving us basically at the end of the previous chapter would have been okay, maybe with a little more development—they really want to be together again, and where it goes remains to be seen.

I spent too long posting my other comment to it crossed over rather.
Yes, I've said elsewhere that the end could have been better executed if, as it seems, ambiguity was the goal (shorter time skip).

But this weird grownup ménage with Rei in the same apartment building under uncertain emotional conditions, I dunno . . .

As someone who gets on really well with my siblings it doesn't seem that weird to me, choosing to live close to the people you care about. Reiichi was never in love with Kaoru, or emotionally invested in their marriage, so although he might have been a bit upset about her rejection of his "help", I don't think there is any reason for it to be a painful issue for either of them long-term, reverting to being "good friends" as Kaoru hoped.

circamoore posted:

I suspect this entire issue is a bit pointless, since I'm pretty sure the main reason for the lack of material on Kaoru's orientation (especially in the last chapter) is that the author was avoiding committing to a romantic outcome vs sororal.

The last chapter makes it very clear that Kaoru cherishes Uta's love for her, she even blushes when she talks about it. Her friends would presume she is talking about a hypothetical prince charming, but we know she is talking about Uta. That is about as far as it can go without committing to a romantic outcome.

I'm sorry, but then what's the point of entire manga? If you begin story with character being in love with someone they can't be with and tries to overcome it, the only satisfactory resolutions are that she accepts it and moves on, doesn't move on, but accepts it'll be forever unrequited (what first half of last chapter seemed to go with and honestly should have stuck with) or actually managed to make unrequited love requited (happy ending majority of readers here were hoping for). Ending entire thing without any kind of confirmation is literally leaving the story unresolved and robbing readers of any possible emotional climax to the story. And just to make it clear, I read this story for Uta's angst and fully expected for love staying unrequited. I was expecting the worst possible outcome and I still feel cheated by this lack of resolution and impact. Instead of people talking about how satisfying or not the emotional journey was, people instead are left questioning what this ending was even supposed to meant. You can't simply not give any reward to your readers after basic your entire story on emotional struggles of its main characters. Manga literally ended with the status quo it started with. Uta and Kaoru still live together, Uta still loves Kaoru and we still don't know whatever Kaoru will ever reciprocated Uta's feelings or not. That's definition of bad writing.

last edited at Oct 21, 2020 7:48PM

Nah, if you get axed 30 chapters in, they give you a couple of chapters to wrap the story up. Let's say she got two, ch36 and ch37, for a total of 59 pages. She just wrote ch35, where Kaoru talks with Risako, learns the truth about her husband and ends up in tears.

So, how she starts her remaining two chapters? 13 pages to get from point A to point B, with 22% of the remaining pages wasted instead of being used more meaningfully. No way. If she just wanted Kaoru talk with Uta she could have continued from ch35 and made Kaoru go to Uta in tears, saying that she had nowhere else to go. Two panels instead of 13 pages, with the rest for more important stuff. Not the best, but better than this.

If she put those 13 pages it's because they are more important than the content of this chapter. Why? Simple, reread the last chapter and you'll see that that is the ending. The story of Uta's unrequited love ended last chapter with Uta saying that she'll keep her unrequited love, and it's now up to Kaoru. This chapter is just the aftermath.

The point of Kaoru's emotional growth over the recent chapters is that she doesn't do that anymore, she is learning to face her problems and is determined to make her own way. Uta was avoiding Kaoru, and Kaoru wanted to respect that - it needed a push to get them talking (the sequence also served to show Kaoru's resolve). It was because Kaoru wasn't having a breakdown that they could finally talk properly.

But I think you might be right about the ending not being forced on the author, since looking back I can't really find a point where the story abruptly changed pace/direction.

Back when that chapter was posted I commented that ch36 represented a climax of sorts for the evolution of Uta's feelings, an ending of sorts, and it seemed to follow fairly uniformly from the rest.

After Kaoru admitted she had been doing the same thing as Uta (on a slightly different wavelength), Uta finally stopped seeing her feelings as something she did wrong, a problem and a source of guilt even after she decided she liked them, and instead re-framed them as just a failure to connect. Combined with Kaoru's impending divorce she even opens herself to the possibility that they might connect some day.

Which makes ch37 an epilogue, where it fits fairly well apart from the issues around ambiguity I've mentioned elsewhere.

Uta came to terms with her feelings, starting a different story, although unlike Citrus+ I doubt we'll get to see this one.

circamoore posted:

I suspect this entire issue is a bit pointless, since I'm pretty sure the main reason for the lack of material on Kaoru's orientation (especially in the last chapter) is that the author was avoiding committing to a romantic outcome vs sororal.

The last chapter makes it very clear that Kaoru cherishes Uta's love for her, she even blushes when she talks about it. Her friends would presume she is talking about a hypothetical prince charming, but we know she is talking about Uta. That is about as far as it can go without committing to a romantic outcome.

I'm sorry, but then what's the point of entire manga? If you begin story with character being in love with someone they can't be with and tries to overcome it, the only satisfactory resolutions are that she accepts it and moves on, doesn't move on, but accepts it'll be forever unrequited (what first half of last chapter seemed to go with and honestly should have stuck with) or actually managed to make unrequited love requited (happy ending majority of readers here were hoping for). Ending entire thing without any kind of confirmation is literally leaving the story unresolved and robbing readers of any possible emotional climax to the story. And just to make it clear, I read this story for Uta's angst and fully expected for love staying unrequited. I was expecting the worst possible outcome and I still feel cheated by this lack of resolution and impact. Instead of people talking about how satisfying or not the emotional journey was, people instead are left questioning what this ending was even supposed to meant. You can't simply not give any reward to your readers after basic your entire story on emotional struggles of its main characters. Manga literally ended with the status quo it started with. Uta and Kaoru still live together, Uta still loves Kaoru and we still don't know whatever Kaoru will ever reciprocated Uta's feelings or not. That's definition of bad writing.

A little goal oriented aren't we? I won't say I wouldn't have preferred an ending that resolved the issue of Uta and Kaoru's relationship (preferably with them together), but I don't consider that it was required, which I suppose would make it fan-service, not that there is anything wrong with that. It would have been nice.

I have a feeling I said this many chapters ago, but the story is about dealing with feelings - the final external resolution is just a detail of the ending.

In a coming of age/quest story the protagonist goes on a dramatic journey, slays dragons etc - but that is just the medium in which their growth is painted - a literary device casting emotions into real action; at the end they return to the same town, the same people and sometimes even the same role, but grown - it is a change of perspective.

Uta starts out the story weighed down by self-loathing and guilt about her inappropriate feelings seeing them only as a burden that she must rid herself of. The story takes us on a long journey with her as she finds herself and her perspective broadens, first to recognize the happy moments, growing in understanding, articulating her feelings, embracing them as part of her identity (that she likes), and finally at the end shedding her guilt (ch36 she finally accepts her feelings as legitimate, possibly even requited one day) - dragon slayed. Then she returns home, still the same person, still in love with Kaoru, but changed and matured in her perspective.

Uta might hold on to her feelings, or not. Act on them, or not. But whatever way it goes she is at peace with them.

I'm not saying it has been an exemplar of good writing, but having been involved with fanfiction for decades I have a bar for bad writing that is on a whole other level. I prefer to dwell on what a writer has achieved in their story telling rather than what they haven't.

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story, and while it is a bit rough in places and the ending wasn't great, the nett experience is positive so I'm reluctant to call it bad.
As a fairly passive introvert, I'll even grant it an "interesting perspective" bonus in that I rarely see stories where a protagonist evolves primarily by introspection - thinking, watching and talking - rather than by doing.

That was.... Horrible way to end... Disappointing and not even one kiss to help us cope

agree

circamoore posted:

A little goal oriented aren't we?

No clue where you got that from.

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story, and while it is a bit rough in places and the ending wasn't great, the nett experience is positive so I'm reluctant to call it bad.

You won't convince me that author that makes main character confess her love at the end of last chapter of the volume and then only in second chapter of next volume tells us how MC's unrequited crush reacted with just half page of flashbacks and narration is writing a good gripping emotional story. Leaving readers hanging and grasping for resolution for anything was a hallmark of this series. This author has no clue how to explore anything. Author of Hanigare do.

last edited at Oct 21, 2020 9:36PM

I have to admit I'm finding myself getting more and more sympathetic towards tmnr's decision to end ambiguously.

It would be frustrating to write a 35 chapter story about self discovery and emotional growth, only to have people's entire perception of it framed around whether they agreed (or not) with Uta ending up with Kaoru romantically (or not) in the last chapter.

Judged by the standards of fanfiction I cannot say, since I have fairly limited experience with fanfic.

But judged by the standards of yuri mangaka who get to ply their craft over this many chapters of professional publication, I would call this a botched job by an inattentive author, one with a definite, albeit limited, flair for character conception and some scene construction, but with at best very erratic control over the pacing of chapters, consistency of plot and character detail, and structural proportion (as in lingering for pages over side issues and plot mechanics—getting a character from point A to point B, for example—then rushing through or abruptly ending crucially important scenes).

Finally, by posing a central narrative conflict and then not resolving it (and if properly developed any of the plausible outcomes would have been fine with me), the series ends with one of the most egregious authorial copouts that I have ever seen (worse even than Citrus, and that’s saying something).

But judged by the standards of yuri mangaka who get to ply their craft over this many chapters of professional publication, I would call this a botched job by an inattentive author, one with a definite, albeit limited, flair for character conception and some scene construction, but with at best very erratic control over the pacing of chapters, consistency of plot and character detail, and structural proportion (as in lingering for pages over side issues and plot mechanics—getting a character from point A to point B, for example—then rushing through or abruptly ending crucially important scenes).

I completely agree. If the manga was ACTUALLY about Uta’s and only Uta’s love, it could have been 10 chapters max. Instead, it meandered all over the place and only managed to get itself back together by dropping all of the other subplots towards the end.

It would have been better if the author only focus on one time skip wherein Uta and Kaoru are reconfirming their feelings for each other or if there is any to begin with on Kaoru's part instead of jumping from timeline to another timeline.

It is also funny that it was the side couple Kuro and Miyabi who got their happy ending but the final stab in the back is seeing Reeichi live next door with Uta and Kaoru lol. You can just imagine an NTR plot twist waiting to happen on those last panels. Tsk tsk

last edited at Oct 21, 2020 10:40PM

circamoore posted:

A little goal oriented aren't we?

No clue where you got that from.

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story, and while it is a bit rough in places and the ending wasn't great, the nett experience is positive so I'm reluctant to call it bad.

You won't convince me that author that makes main character confess her love at the end of last chapter of the volume and then only in second chapter of next volume tells us how MC's unrequited crush reacted with just half page of flashbacks and narration is writing a good gripping emotional story. Leaving readers hanging and grasping for resolution for anything was a hallmark of this series. This author has no clue how to explore anything. Author of Hanigare do.

Everyone complaining here held on though 37 chapters, there must have been something there.

I have agreed all along in these discussions that readers are capable of making up material in their own heads that will enable this story to make sense--readers have in fact expended enormous amounts of imaginative labor doing so.

And herein lies the problem. People have developed sometimes more, sometimes less elaborate fanfics that enable the story to function, and then they mistook the whole package (the actual story + their own headcanon) as quality writing, never realising that the sole reason they had to resort to their own imaginations this much is precisely because the writing in the actual story is bad.

I think the main reason for this disconnect is something I pointed out years ago in this thread; there is a difference between liking something and that something being of quality, but said difference is lost to many people. There are folks who liked the series and were heavily invested into it, and amongst them many have equated this with the story being well written.

circamoore posted:

A little goal oriented aren't we?

No clue where you got that from.

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story, and while it is a bit rough in places and the ending wasn't great, the nett experience is positive so I'm reluctant to call it bad.

You won't convince me that author that makes main character confess her love at the end of last chapter of the volume and then only in second chapter of next volume tells us how MC's unrequited crush reacted with just half page of flashbacks and narration is writing a good gripping emotional story. Leaving readers hanging and grasping for resolution for anything was a hallmark of this series. This author has no clue how to explore anything. Author of Hanigare do.

Everyone complaining here held on though 37 chapters, there must have been something there.

Honestly, the ending was what we were waiting for, at least I was. I wanted to see everything get resolved, and the chapters 36 and 37 threw that out the park. Now that we are looking at it as a complete work, it fails in so many aspects, most of which could have been fixed if there were more chapters, although arguably it probably wouldn’t have made the past chapters any better.

Edit: not to say that it wasn’t entertaining, it was just disappointing to see it end that way when it could have been so much better. As I said, if this is the ending we were going to get, this manga needed only to be 10 chapters.

last edited at Oct 21, 2020 11:04PM