BugDevil posted:

For example there is nothing wholesome about BDSM to me, even if both parties are completely comfortable with the arrangement. And no... aftercare is not wholesome. it's just the bare minimum recompensation after something close to voluntary abuse.

Wow, and you just proved you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It was a while since I read something so ignorant and grossly misunderstanding something, I'll just pretend I didn't see it.

Funny coming from you of all people. Hypocrites will always be hypocrites, alas.

You missed the point Nevri. This is not about BDSM. It was merely an example of something that does not fit under the wholesome tag, whether it's happy, nice, good or whatever else you believe it to be. There is no version of BDSM that fits under this tag. You may be offended by my overstated phrasing, but it does not mean I am ignorant.

Secondly, it implies that BDSM doesn't involve expression of love.

What a joke. You sure love putting words into people's mouths. Ew.

At least your little rant proved my point once again. If everything can be wholesome, then it sure is hard to define.

last edited at May 15, 2020 12:50PM

No Wholesome for you two either anymore. You both also now get Feet instead.

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

No Wholesome for you two either anymore. You both also now get Feet instead.

Yo, what's wrong with Feet? D:

No Wholesome for you two either anymore. You both also now get Feet instead.

I could think of worse punishments. LIke the Glasses tag. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

No Wholesome for you two either anymore. You both also now get Feet instead.

Yo, what's wrong with Feet? D:

They know what they did.

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes. And also Feet.

I could think of worse punishments. LIke the Glasses tag. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I've worn glasses for the last 30+ years, I AM the Glasses tag. D:

I could think of worse punishments. LIke the Glasses tag. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I've worn glasses for the last 30+ years, I AM the Glasses tag. D:

Welp. If you are the Glasses tag then I guess I'll just have to become M for you.

I wonder if that makes this wholesome S&M...

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes.

A bridge too far.

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes.

A bridge too far.

You are now forever cursed with lots of JPG artifacts.

No Wholesome for you two either anymore. You both also now get Feet instead.

I could think of worse punishments. LIke the Glasses tag. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Hey! If you don't take that back right now, you do not get to come to the barbeque next thursday!

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes.

A bridge too far.

You are now forever cursed with lots of JPG artifacts.

And you are ALSO from now endlessly besmirched with Weird Nipple Shit. Good thing that those JPEG Artifacts can KINDA act like a censor mosaic.

last edited at May 15, 2020 1:24PM

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes. And also Feet.

Can you remove the Feet part? Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes? That's not a punishment, that's my average tuesday!

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes. And also Feet.

Can you remove the Feet part? Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes? That's not a punishment, that's my average tuesday!

Nope. In fact now you get Twice As Much Feet: Now With More Feety Goodness

BugDevil has decided to move on to greener pastures. We wish them the best at whatever other site they choose to call home.

BugDevil posted:

Funny coming from you of all people. Hypocrites will always be hypocrites, alas.

Good to know.

You missed the point Nevri. This is not about BDSM.

That's exactly why I wrote "And I think that can apply to any fetish." I simply talked about BDSM, because that's what I have the most knowledge about and what is the most often misunderstood.

It was merely an example of something that does not fit under the wholesome tag, whether it's happy, nice, good or whatever else you believe it to be. There is no version of BDSM that fits under this tag.

And I was explaining why I disagree with your opinion.

You may be offended by my overstated phrasing, but it does not mean I am ignorant.

The fact you think I called you ignorant, because I'm offended and not because I just give you explanation why you're ignorant, is honestly all the proof I need to know you have no clue what you're talking about. Also you can't offend me, because I got exactly what I expected from you.

What a joke. You sure love putting words into people's mouths. Ew.

Funny coming from you of all people.

If everything can be wholesome, then it sure is hard to define.

I only implied it, but the point was that they said that wholesome only apply to stuff that focus more about feelings than naughty bits, which excludes fetishes by default. My point was that it's misunderstanding fetishes, by assuming they can't be about feelings. I wasn't saying all fetishes deserve a wholesome tag, but that you can depict them in a way that focuses more on feelings than sex, even if they're fetishes. So you missed my point.

last edited at May 15, 2020 1:15PM

Well first of all BDSM is a spectrum so just labeling entire thing as "extreme" is a little. Not to mention everyone has different line when something becomes "extreme". Secondly, it implies that BDSM doesn't involve expression of love. Sure I can understand why some people could not understand it (it's not for everyone for a reason), but to blindly saying there can't be BDSM play that focuses more on feelings is just plain ignorant. Something many people don't know or forget about is that entire premise of BDSM is based on unquestionable trust for your partner, that they won't take advantage of you when you allow them taking control over you. The act itself might seem to other people as very vulgar, but the feelings behind it are very pure and deep. So to simply dismiss it as something that can never be wholesome in nature is incredibly ignorant. And I think that can apply to any fetish. Ultimately it's all about strong bond those people are sharing that they're willing to act on their biggest fantasies without feeling ashamed or embarrassed about them.

I never said, nor was I implying even the slightest bit, that bondage can't involve love. However, the central principle of almost all fetishes is that they they're about finding pleasure in negative emotions - whether that's pain, shame, immorality, jealousy, disgust, or something else. Although it's a testament to the human ability to shape the world to our liking, that we can find a way to turn negative emotions into something that make us feel good, that kind of thing is mutually exclusive with wholesomeness because negative emotions are largely absent from wholesome stories. Fetishes are acquired tastes, and without having developed such a taste, a reader is only left with the negative emotion the taste is based on, not the pleasure others may associate with it. It's not wholesome if only people who have developed that positive association can enjoy reading a given manga.

^ I'd rather have wholesome, but if you take it from me, please have the decency to give me childhood friends instead.

Nope. You get Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes. And also Feet.

Can you remove the Feet part? Inexplicable Fourth Tier Historical Memes? That's not a punishment, that's my average tuesday!

Nope. In fact now you get Twice As Much Feet: Now With More Feety Goodness

What did I do to deserve such punishment?

shadesofgreymoon posted:

No Wholesome for you two either anymore. You both also now get Feet instead.

It's fine. I'll just hid myself in my Floof

last edited at May 15, 2020 1:56PM

Nah, it's probably better no one ever does.

The whole argument was uncalled for. I can understand heated argument on thing like Subtext or Bisexual but on Wholesome really ?

I'm guilty as charged, but in the defense of myself and other participants, people have a tendency to become overly passionate about the things they care about. And, if not arguing about it, there's certainly merit to discussing the tag. Personally, I really don't want to click on a manga with the Wholesome tag only to see **** because somebody thought it would be funny to meme about, so I think establishing an understanding of what the community thinks is fit for the tag isn't a bad thing. At the same time, I don't want to see this tag relegated to non-use even if it's a bit subjective, since I believe it fills an important gap in helping people find the kind of manga they want to read.

Ironic how it was a discussion on the tag wholesome fell into chaos so quickly. Several people, especially shadowofgreymoon, started throwing the feet tag around as a weapon, and BugDevil (who, despite how easy they fall into arguments, was actually among some of my favourite Dynasty Readers (I mean, the circle of those I consider that is actually quite extensive, so that's not really telling all that much in retrospect, but still)) got perma-banned. long deep sigh

And, if not arguing about it, there's certainly merit to discussing the tag. Personally, I really don't want to click on a manga with the Wholesome tag only to see **** because somebody thought it would be funny to meme about, so I think establishing an understanding of what the community thinks is fit for the tag isn't a bad thing.

I agree with the rest of your sentiment, but I would just say that all tags complement each other by default. If a manga has Wholesome and Comedy and no Drama or NSFW, then it would be safe to assume that it's Wholesome as you'd like to employ it. However, there may be cause - I don't know presently - to pair Wholesome with a tag you wouldn't do the same with. I'm pointing this out because when considering what to read, one should always consider all tags present before making a determination. Hopefully that makes sense.

I'm sorry for your loss, BV :(

last edited at May 15, 2020 3:57PM

OrangePekoe posted:

However, there may be cause - I don't know presently - to pair Wholesome with a tag you wouldn't do the same with.

Wholesome BDSM stares