Yamada x Mikawacchi is the new OTP.

One of the primary aspects of heteronormativity is the adherence to gender roles and the traditional gender roles within a heterosexual relationship are the man as dominant provider/protector and the woman as a submissive dependant. There are massive religions devoted to propping up this model. Kase's behaviour and how Yamada is portrayed is reflective of this model imposed onto a WLW relationship. Learn about concepts before you lazily dismiss someone elses completely accurate representation of them.

"If you don't dress more conservatively you'll be harassed by men" is like the go to justification men use to shame women into wearing what they want them to. It ain't a good look regardless of motive and certainly if that motive is just your own comfort.

I suppose if you really want to go the whole 10 yards you can see it that way.
Antiquated gender roles have nothing to do with modern heterosexuality and pretending that such relationships these days have anything to do with control and the like is simply idiotic, which is why the term heteronormativity is terribly insufficient in the first place. The usual intention of using heteronormativity is to address that society views hetero relationships and all that it involves as the standard. The way you use it here is just another ideological buzzword. Just say gender roles if you wanna harp on gender roles.

Sure, if this was a serious demand Kase made or if it was actually enforced in any way, it would be a pretty bad look. But as we know, Yamada does what she wants and Kase will be annoyed and try to be protective, but not actually stop her. This was an embarrassed response to feeling aroused, not a rule she set up and Yamada didn't just cave in either.

It's not just that Cryssoberyl's comment was entirely correct to begin with. It doesn't take a genius to understand the clear link between 'control' and 'heteronormativity', since the most heteronormative relationship, according to creepy dudes, is one where a man controls a woman. Where the woman is innocent and pure and clueless and pretty much a child, while the dude is the adult that holds all the cards, and has to "protect" said woman from herself.

Uhuh. If you say so lmao
You live in the past and that's why you make such terribly backwards assumptions. If that is just how creepy dudes see a heteronormative relationship, doesn't that mean you are a creepy dude, because you also think that's how that term is supposed to be interpreted?

In the first place those are not just hetero traits, they are traits that appear in any relationship across the board, hetero, gay or lesbian. Whether it's good or bad, many of these things are just natural human behaviour to a certain extent.This goes back to the whole power dynamics talk. One partner will often be more dominant than the other and that is not at all related to hetero thinking.
As you no doubt will somehow manage to get the wrong idea, as your type usually does, let me say ahead of time: No I do not support any of those things. I don't like heteronormativity or think that Kase is doing the right thing. Those are two different matters however.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 10:16AM

One of the primary aspects of heteronormativity is the adherence to gender roles and the traditional gender roles within a heterosexual relationship are the man as dominant provider/protector and the woman as a submissive dependant. There are massive religions devoted to propping up this model. Kase's behaviour and how Yamada is portrayed is reflective of this model imposed onto a WLW relationship. Learn about concepts before you lazily dismiss someone elses completely accurate representation of them.

"If you don't dress more conservatively you'll be harassed by men" is like the go to justification men use to shame women into wearing what they want them to. It ain't a good look regardless of motive and certainly if that motive is just your own comfort.

I suppose if you really want to go the whole 10 yards you can see it that way.
Antiquated gender roles have nothing to do with modern heterosexuality and pretending that such relationships these days have anything to do with control and the like is simply idiotic, which is why the term heteronormativity is terribly insufficient in the first place. The usual intention of using heteronormativity is to address that society views hetero relationships and all that it involves as the standard. The way you use it here is just another ideological buzzword. Just say gender roles if you wanna harp on gender roles.

Sure, if this was a serious demand Kase made or if it was actually enforced in any way, it would be a pretty bad look. But as we know, Yamada does what she wants and Kase will be annoyed and try to be protective, but not actually stop her. This was an embarrassed response to feeling aroused, not a rule she set up and Yamada didn't just cave in either.

So you're either clueless or being wilfully obtuse because the idea that traditional gender roles are no longer an issue in modern relationships is just wildly absurd. Like this is just a pointless discussion because you're either so incredibly uninformed I have to explain rudimentary gender politics to you or you're being incredibly disingenuous.

Gender roles have nothing to do with "modern" heterosexuality people. Congrats, we fixed it. In every age, in every place, it has been a pervasive and fundamental problem throughout human society, but BugDevil says its gone now so we can all pat ourselves on the back, job well done having scrubbed it clean from the Earth.

So you're either clueless or being wilfully obtuse because the idea that traditional gender roles are no longer an issue in modern relationships is just wildly absurd. Like this is just a pointless discussion because you're either so incredibly uninformed I have to explain rudimentary gender politics to you or you're being incredibly disingenuous.

No, you are simply pretending that because these issues still come up, that somehow means the modern heterosexual relationship model is still reflective of those issues.

The modern man and woman both have jobs, share expenses, make decisions together and will take responsibility on both accounts.

The fact that often this new model will be strayed from is not an indicatior that it is not in fact the modern model. Back when religious nuts controlled the world and shitty gender roles were the norm there were also always people straying from that model. The difference is that back then those actions could lead to heavy consequences, while these days they do not. The more liberal a society gets, the more differnet lifestyles will become viable. Many people will still follow old gender roles, no doubt, but they don't reflect the general model anymore.

At best you could claim we are still in a transitional period where gender roles finally get obliterated, but no, the things you have claimed to be heteronormative are far from "normative" anymore (assuming we are talking about secular 1st world countries here).

Gender roles have nothing to do with "modern" heterosexuality people. Congrats, we fixed it. In every age, in every place, it has been a pervasive and fundamental problem throughout human society, but BugDevil says its gone now so we can all pat ourselves on the back, job well done having scrubbed it clean from the Earth.

You are almost funny. Outright made me chuckle.

Also love how everyone here ignores my actual arguments related to the story, because the only thing they are interested in is throwing around buzzwords and argue ideology, rather than seeing how completely ridiculous all of this gender role talk is when these are just general character traits and flaws that have nothing to do with such specific concepts.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 10:50AM

Don't know how i feel about the fact that what it mean to be a somewhat innocent sentence of Kase blowup to such proportions. It was just to show Kase's insecurities about their relation not to people suddendly debate if Kase is a tyrant who want Yamada to do what she told her. All Kase said was suggestions not orders, she don't threat Yamada in any kind. You should seriously stop seeing problems where is none yet.I mean yes, if Kase continue to be like this it could be a problem but there isn't right now.

Don't know how i feel about the fact that what it mean to be a somewhat innocent sentence of Kase blowup to such proportions. It was just to show Kase's insecurities about their relation not to people suddendly debate if Kase is a tyrant who want Yamada to do what she told her. All Kase said was suggestions not orders, she don't threat Yamada in any kind. You should seriously stop seeing problems where is none yet.I mean yes, if Kase continue to be like this it could be a problem but there isn't right now.

I believe the main reason why some people here jump on this so hard is that those issues actually did come up in previous chapters. It's not like there is no precedence. If Kase had never said anything of the like before this chapter, I think even these hardheads would have just waved it aside as a harmless embarrassed reaction.

Those issues will be tackled later when they are actually relevant.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 10:50AM

You have no arguments. What's depicted in the story has everything to do with it, and your unwillingness to admit you got caught propping up heteronormative bullshit under the shield of "gender roles don't exist anymore guys" is why you find yourself isolated in this discussion. You exposed yourself, and instead of owning up to that you attempted nothing less than an out-of-hand dismissal of the very idea that it might somehow inform how two humans are conducting a romantic relationship.

There's still time to reverse course from this insanely absurd path you've embarrassed yourself by taking.

You have no arguments. What's depicted in the story has everything to do with it, and your unwillingness to admit you got caught propping up heteronormative bullshit under the shield of "gender roles don't exist anymore guys" is why you find yourself isolated in this discussion. You exposed yourself, and instead of owning up to that you attempted nothing less than an out-of-hand dismissal of the very idea that it might somehow inform how two humans are conducting a romantic relationship.

There's still time to reverse course from this insanely absurd path you've embarrassed yourself by taking.

That ain't gonna happen but I think it's time to end this before the mods step in.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 10:55AM

Yep i had the feel it's becoming a little too much personal.

BugDevil is just appears “isolated” because they stay in obviously fruitless conversations longer than many others.

This thread long ago made the argument that, taken at a sufficient level of abstraction, certain elements of the text can be interpreted as “disturbing.” As a meaningful discussion of the text as it actually is, mileage varies.

A lot.

You have no arguments. What's depicted in the story has everything to do with it, and your unwillingness to admit you got caught propping up heteronormative bullshit under the shield of "gender roles don't exist anymore guys" is why you find yourself isolated in this discussion. You exposed yourself, and instead of owning up to that you attempted nothing less than an out-of-hand dismissal of the very idea that it might somehow inform how two humans are conducting a romantic relationship.

There's still time to reverse course from this insanely absurd path you've embarrassed yourself by taking.

Yeah, I expected you to say something nonsensical like this. Isolated by whom? Three people who made the same argument in the first place? Go back a few pages and look at all the people who do not agree with this interpretation of the story lol

There is still time to admit that this entire thing is completely irrelevant to the story. But you never will.

Blastaar, we may have disagreed heatedly before, but I still expected more from you than to be a surrogate for someone who just unironically claimed that gender roles, whole-cloth, no longer exist and no longer inform society or interpersonal relationships (or depictions thereof). Do you genuinely want to act as an apologist for someone taking such a stance?

And yes, trying to reason with BugDevil is always, indeed, a fruitless conversation, but a flight of fancy as wild as the aforementioned requires an injection of reality, however lost on them it undoubtedly is.

Now that's just personal. I sugger for both of you to step down before it get too far. I don't think Kase-san thread is a good place for that.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 11:35AM

Blastaar, we may have disagreed heatedly before, but I still expected more from you than to be a surrogate for someone who just unironically claimed that gender roles, whole-cloth, no longer exist and no longer inform society or interpersonal relationships (or depictions thereof). Do you genuinely want to act as an apologist for someone taking such a stance?

Stop this nonsense. I didn’t say I subscribe to all of BugDevil’s arguments, I said the argument is not completely one-sided.

Such tendentious characterizations are among the reasons we have clashed in the past.

As you like. I note that you don't deny that that was the substance of their argument, which is satisfying enough. Certainly a good and rational note on which to stop.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 11:55AM

I see Kase's request that Yamada not wear those clothes in fireworks festivals in Tokyo as possibly coming from a place of jealousy, but also coming from a place of concern. Yamada's shown herself to be naive about guys, in the chapter where they're at the swimming pool and the college men are trying to hit on her before Kase rescues her, she both misunderstands the situation, doesn't know how to handle it, and doesn't like it (https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/kase_san_ch10_1#26). Kase is presented as much more worldly than Yamada, and thus is protective of her. But there are many ways to view it. I'm opting for Kase just giving advice to keep Yamada out of a situation Yamada would find awkward VS Kase is controlling.

Granted Kase's reaction isn't the most woke take about this type of situation (feelings of concern over a partner's attire), but this comic is meant to be lighthearted and fluffy - a romcom where the plot is driven by simple misunderstandings between well-meaning characters, not a treatise on healthy relationship dynamics between adults, frankly how little they honestly talk about what's bugging them would be a huge red flag in a real relationship (but it fuels most of the comics).

frankly how little they honestly talk about what's bugging them would be a huge red flag in a real relationship

Honestly that's the biggest problem so far since they start going out. They barely talk to each other of their problems, you thought you could have be over that after one or two problems but nope.

Kase is a tomboy.

It's clearly mimicking a het relationship.

Dropped.

/s

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 1:14PM

Kase is a tomboy.

It's clearly mimicking a het relatioship.

Dropped.

/s

You kid but it does feel like this story leans hard into the "but who's the guy" mentality people often apply to sapphic relationships.

Kase's preoccupation with regulating Yamada's clothing choices needs to stop. It is the most heteronormative aspect of their frequently het-mirroring relationship, and this case directly calls back to Kase actually insulting Yamada's appearance in order to keep her under control. The "don't wear X for your own good!" was not acceptable in Their Story (and called out as such in that work) and it is not acceptable here - even less so here, in fact, manifesting as it did as Kase negging her significant other.

A simple thing to do is to see their relation as a Mom/Daughter one. Kase is just a mom who is afraid that her daughter can't do anything right and had to back her up everytime when said daughter is just doing her best.

Except that is not their relationship and thus should not be their dynamic. It is not Kase's job to manage and mother Yamada, it is her job as her girlfriend to be an equal partner who respects her choices and doesn't seek to control her for her "own good", let alone for Kase's good:

I think I'm finally starting to realize that Kase's whole "could you please not wear that" schpeal is more for her sake than any jealousy over the boys seeing her.

Someone gets it.

Someone gets that it's even worse than it appears? Making insincere appeals to scary boys as bogeymen to frighten Yamada into doing what she, Kase, wants for her own comfort would be blatant and cynical emotional blackmail in exactly the same way women are forced into rigidly "modest" clothing the world over for the peace of mind of their self-appointed owners. Even I don't think Kase is terrible or selfish enough to be doing that, at least not intentionally.

I don't hate Kase or this manga, but she has a problem that continues to manifest, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

THIS

Sorry, you are the weirdo who just equated a need to control to heteronormativity, I'm not sure I can take you seriously lol

Must take some effort to be so thoroughly embarassingly wrong.

It's not just that Cryssoberyl's comment was entirely correct to begin with. It doesn't take a genius to understand the clear link between 'control' and 'heteronormativity', since the most heteronormative relationship, according to creepy dudes, is one where a man controls a woman. Where the woman is innocent and pure and clueless and pretty much a child, while the dude is the adult that holds all the cards, and has to "protect" said woman from herself.

Now, what were the criticisms of this chapter about again? Oh, right, exactly that very topic. Who'd have thought?
Still cracking me up that the Hyperfan-Defensesquad thought "B-but kase is the mom and yamada the wee kid" actually helped matters, lol.

Apparently denile is not just a river in Egypt...

And apparently some don't know when to stop. Can we stop the conversation for real ?

And apparently some don't know when to stop. Can we stop the conversation for real ?

Jeez, really?? Don't Kase me

You know that nothing good will come by provoking . The conversation need to stop because there no point to continue it.