Yeah, still don't really know what you're going on about at the top, sorry. I was addressing a specific subset of people trying to claim that being uncomfortable with this manga was unreasonable/wrong/some other dismissive adjective and the fact that none of their arguments really swayed me on the subject partially because discomfort is subjective and thus can't be wrong and partly because the arguments are just all kind of ill-conceived and lacking empathy.

If that was what you were refering to, then as a reply to my post it was off-topic. And you are really not one to talk about empathy after completely ignoring the context of the characters' feelings in the matter...

"It's just a joke" is not really a good defence for why people shouldn't take issue with something. Besides it's not like I'm frothing with rage I read the chapter and my response was an exasperated sigh because I really like this manga and that development skeeved me out.

If a rather harmless act being a punchline in a joke isn't a good defense of why it shouldn't be treated as something bad... well then nothing really is. In which case you clearly don't want to be open minded about it.
Another irrelevant point. I have said nothing about you acting angry, because I didn't perceive it that way.

Fictional characters don't have the ability to make decisions or moral judgments they are a vessel for the narrative the author wants to happen. If she were a real girl and this were a real situation my response to people uncomfortable with it would be "Mind your business unless she says otherwise" but she's not and thus her responses and decisions simply don't have the same weight. It's the same reason "Well, she CHOOSES to dress like that" falls flat as a justification for skimpy outfit designs. Koguma didn't choose anything, the author did. Also, I love teasing as much as the next girl but if someone I had a crush on peeked at my underwear while I was sleeping without my consent that crush would die a very quick death.

Fictional characters don't have any choices, so no story has any meaning or depth, because it's just make believe. What a futile way of argumentation. This is how the characters are portrayed, so if you put real life standards into it, you have to treat their actions and reactions as real as well. If you dislike it, you may say that Hino is a bad person or Koguma is not resolute enough, those are character traits.
Skimpy outfits are the choice of the character in-universe. If you want to discuss meta reasons, then that's a different topic. Never conflate the two.

Good for you, that's your ultra specific personal reaction to it. Other people might laugh it off or be a bit embarrassed, but not mind it etc.

There is not enough popcorn in the world to read through all of this, it's not even amusing anymore. And this kind of "problematic serious talk" appears every time I visit a discussion on this site.

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:17PM

There is not enough popcorn in the world to read through all of this, it's not even amusing anymore. And this kind of "problematic serious talk" appears every time I visit a discussion on this site.

it's literally the same tiny group of people doing it every time too.....

Prioritizing the feelings of fictional characters that do not in fact have feelings over those of real people is delusional. Empathizing with them within the context of their stories? Perfectly reasonable and part of the point of stories. Thinking they have the same ethical standing as actual people in a real world context? Psychologically unwell.

Depending on the situation I would certainly prioritize the feelings of the characters over the feelings of real people.

Like, say, a very common type of person that would feel threatened by a potential lesbian couple in fiction because it damages their ability to enjoy the story. I often wonder what kind of person would want to destroy the feelings of the characters for the sake of their own self-satisfaction. That would count as prioritizing a fictional character's feelings over a real person's.

I suppose that makes me psychologically unwell. Who knew?

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:22PM

majere posted:

Koguma is not a real person therefore her feelings have no bearing on ethical considerations outside the text.

Not everyone consumes fiction this way, nor are they obligated to or should do so in this way.

Prioritizing the feelings of fictional characters that do not in fact have feelings over those of real people is delusional. Empathizing with them within the context of their stories? Perfectly reasonable and part of the point of stories. Thinking they have the same ethical standing as actual people in a real world context? Psychologically unwell.

I actually agree with your arguments in general, but then you go and write this sort of crap...

Do you think we should treat real people and fictional characters with the same level of ethical priority? If the trolley problem had your favourite fictional character (who doesn't exist) on one track and an actual living breathing human being on the other would you be conflicted about saving the actual living breathing human? Like that's what I'm talking about here not like really loving fictional characters and investing in them but straight up believing they have the same intrinsic worth as actual human life.

There is not enough popcorn in the world to read through all of this, it's not even amusing anymore. And this kind of "problematic serious talk" appears every time I visit a discussion on this site.

it's literally the same tiny group of people doing it every time too.....

it would be fine if it was relevant, but its all about lolicons and bdsm. which are not in this manga

Do you think we should treat real people and fictional characters with the same level of ethical priority? If the trolley problem had your favourite fictional character (who doesn't exist) on one track and an actual living breathing human being on the other would you be conflicted about saving the actual living breathing human? Like that's what I'm talking about here not like really loving fictional characters and investing in them but straight up believing they have the same intrinsic worth as actual human life.

Well, the equivalent of the fictional character on the track would be the concept of the fictional character being erased from existence, as that would be the equivalent of death for them.

And to answer your question. It depends a lot on the identity of the person on the track.
(and to a lesser extent, the character whose existence is in question on the other.)

I mean I can count a lot of fictional characters that bring greater joy and good to the world than quite a few real people.

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:25PM

Do you think we should treat real people and fictional characters with the same level of ethical priority? If the trolley problem had your favourite fictional character (who doesn't exist) on one track and an actual living breathing human being on the other would you be conflicted about saving the actual living breathing human? Like that's what I'm talking about here not like really loving fictional characters and investing in them but straight up believing they have the same intrinsic worth as actual human life.

Why do you debate an argument nobody made then?

Prioritizing the feelings of fictional characters that do not in fact have feelings over those of real people is delusional. Empathizing with them within the context of their stories? Perfectly reasonable and part of the point of stories. Thinking they have the same ethical standing as actual people in a real world context? Psychologically unwell.

Depending on the situation I would certainly prioritize the feelings of the characters over the feelings of real people.

Like, say, a very common type of person that would feel threatened by a potential lesbian couple in fiction because it damages their ability to enjoy the story. I often wonder what kind of person would want to destroy the feelings of the characters for the sake of their own self-satisfaction. That would count as prioritizing a fictional character's feelings over a real person's.

I suppose that makes me psychologically unwell. Who knew?

They don't have feelings. They don't exist. Yes, the bigot should be ignored but their feelings that actually exist still outweigh nothing it's the feelings of the real gay people who would gain from lesbian representation that outweigh theirs and should be prioritized.

...English isn't my native language, and I just recently learned the term "strawman".
It's very educating seeing it used in so many examples at once...

They don't have feelings. They don't exist. Yes, the bigot should be ignored but their feelings that actually exist still outweigh nothing it's the feelings of the real gay people who would gain from lesbian representation that outweigh theirs and should be prioritized.

You can see it that way, sure, but the feelings of the real people or the gay community don't come into mind for me. Except for mine. I mean I hate the anti-yuri folks, so I get that satisfaction, I guess. But primarily I'm thinking about the characters. If you're going to argue that the bigot's unsightly and ugly feelings stand above the love of the character's, well I can't agree on that.

I don't read yuri to fist pump that it's another victory for the gay community, I read them because I love the characters and the way the interact with each other.

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:31PM

hey mods can you put a stop to this?
it's going in circles and majere has no indication of stopping their strawmans.

Do you think we should treat real people and fictional characters with the same level of ethical priority? If the trolley problem had your favourite fictional character (who doesn't exist) on one track and an actual living breathing human being on the other would you be conflicted about saving the actual living breathing human? Like that's what I'm talking about here not like really loving fictional characters and investing in them but straight up believing they have the same intrinsic worth as actual human life.

Why do you debate an argument nobody made then?

They actively disagreed with my stance on a pretty binary point. I'm trying to determine if they misunderstood my point by clarifying it.

Yeah this has gone on way too long I'll leave my posts for posterity but if a mod wants to wipe this whole mess I totally get it.

Can't we talk about cute things and shipping instead? In general I mean. People can see a work of art in a different way, but that's how it is.

I'm seriously lost what "Me and other people find some elements of this story uncomfortable and our feelings shouldn't be dismissed" (which I agree with) have to do with "They don't exist, therefore my hurt feelings are more important than theirs" bs.

Well I thought it was wholesome that Hino could see Koguma's exhaustion and offered her a lap pillow. She even woke her up for class, even though she could have easily exploited it to skip.

Oh and she denied the idea that being unable to sleep after a horror movie was childish, once again knocking Koguma's immature impression of herself.

What the hell, people?

This entire discussion is embarrassing to look at. Personal attacks. Bad faith arguments. Accusations of wanting to ban things. Slippery slopes. And whatever that "if someone complains about pedophelia they're a pedophile" nonsense is supposed to be.

Does anyone think any of this is reasonable?

I'm seriously this =>][<= close to locking this entire discussion and deleting the past five or six pages just to make sure all of the trash is taken out, and that gap is narrowing fast.

But I'm giving you all a chance to walk away from the brink. Take a break. Maybe don't post anything for an hour or two, to cool down. Do something, but for Christ's sake don't keep at this. Don't get one last retort in. Don't explain yourself or your reasoning. Don't try for some kind of closure. Don't post some no doubt brilliant observation that everyone else missed. Just...don't.

And then, once you've gotten out of Fight Mode, maybe we can get back to something resembling a civil manga discussion.

I'm seriously lost what "Me and other people find some elements of this story uncomfortable and our feelings shouldn't be dismissed" (which I agree with) have to do with "They don't exist, therefore my hurt feelings are more important than theirs" bs.

Okay last post in this thread just to clarify: They don't have feelings because they don't exist. If you told me saying "Hatsune Miku sucks" (I do not have any opinion on Hatsune Miku) hurt her feelings I would not care because she doesn't exist and has no feelings. They can't actually be hurt and real people can therefore real people are a higher priority. If you have further issues with this I won't be responding because this is getting hella off topic.

How did this thread degenerate into such a shitshow so fast?

Also imagine getting that butthurt about fictional characters lmao

Edit: Nez's comment was posted while I was in the middle of writing my post, plz no banerino

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:43PM

I actually thought Hino was going to give sleeping Koguma a kiss when she gently wiped her hair back... ^^; (maybe she did?)

Well I thought it was wholesome that Hino could see Koguma's exhaustion and offered her a lap pillow. She even woke her up for class, even though she could have easily exploited it to skip.

Oh and she denied the idea that being unable to sleep after a horror movie was childish, once again knocking Koguma's immature impression of herself.

Honestly, that was all super cute and I loved it. I really liked how Hino knew that making Koguma skip class like that would have been actually hurtful to her unlike her usual teasing.

...since the actual on-topic discussion seems to be a bit farther away and I don't even know if anyone answered this already at all:

Does anyone know how far along this manga is, and how caught up we are with the translations?
...I fear the end of the current upload spree ^^;

Can't we talk about cute things and shipping instead? In general I mean. People can see a work of art in a different way, but that's how it is.

I thought you wanted to put out the flames not to fan them.

...since the actual on-topic discussion seems to be a bit farther away and I don't even know if anyone answered this already at all:

Does anyone know how far along this manga is, and how caught up we are with the translations?
...I fear the end of the current upload spree ^^;

I think someone earlier said there were 32 or 33 chapters so far. Can I get a confirmation?

And a halleleujah while we're at it?