I think lust definitely has it's place in a romantic relationship
I also think there is for sure a whole lotta lust between Yuu x Touko

Wait... Did they fuck??

Get the fuck out, dude. There’s more to romance stories than just fucking.

The truth has been spoken!
Seriously though, what's with people on this site and their fixation on sex in innocent romance manga or polyamorous ships that don't even make any sense.

Beats me. Can anyone who has such fixations explain it to us, please?

Reminds me of a joke Red Foxx once said:
A man went to see a shrink for an evaluation. The psychologist drew a circle on a piece of paper and asked the man,"Now, what do you see in this picture?"
The man replied, "A room full of naked women."
Then the psychologist drew a square on another piece of paper and asked again,"What do you see in this square?"
The man, again but more emphatically, said, "A room full of naked women!"
The psychologist put down his drawing and said, "My goodness! You have a fixation on sex!"
The man felt offended and retorted with, "Me with the fixation?! Heck, you're the one drawing the dirty pictures!"

Maybe if there weren't any dirty pictures, then there wouldn't be anyone on this website. (Joke too)

I think Maki deserves a gift certificate or something, but whether from Yuu or Touko I'm not completely sure.

I think what you meant is that Sayaka deserves a gift card from both of them.
And written in it will be "You will always be my #2".

OK, that's just mean.

But a nice charm from the aquarium gift shop might be appropriate.

A flounder, perhaps.

Now that's just as bad and more humorous to me. The word for a fish that also means indecisive, undetermined, or unfocused. That pun is fun.

last edited at May 2, 2019 9:10PM

Wait... Did they fuck??

Get the fuck out, dude. There’s more to romance stories than just fucking.

The truth has been spoken!
Seriously though, what's with people on this site and their fixation on sex in innocent romance manga or polyamorous ships that don't even make any sense.

Beats me. Can anyone who has such fixations explain it to us, please?

Some people don't believe in romance without lust.

Well, Touko's and Yuu's lust for each other has been shown before, especially in chapters 16 & 20. It's not like they are asexual. Whether the last volume will actually feature a sex scene or not, no one can really tell. Nakatani has said more than once that she enjoys drawing lewd, but whether she actually wants to draw it in her story and whether her editor will allow it, that's a whole different story. This manga doesn't need sex anyways, but after seeing Miyako and Riko cuddling in bed together, I wanna see something like with Touko and Yuu too (it happened in ch 22, but now as couple)

last edited at May 2, 2019 9:42PM

Guys we made it, its been 4 years.

Finally... happy tears :')

The deed is done.

I don't think we can actually speculate much on how the parents will react. I mean, nobody visibly freaked out about the gay themes in the play, but Yuu's dad was uncomfortable at the idea of Yuu having a girlfriend. But the thing about bigotry is that it's really kind of hard to predict where it will come out. It's divorced from reason and is sometimes viceral, and some otherwise very nice people can turn suddenly ugly when they find out somebody is gay. So I'm not placing bets, but I imagine Rei is going to have to do SOMETHING for them at some point.

If you read the side-chapter where Rei and Yuu go shopping again, Rei explicitly thinks that their father is a pushover who always goes along with what the others want in the end. Therefore we can easily predict the same happening here. Not everything is about bigotry...

In the same chapter Rei said that their mother would be the biggest obstacle.

Keep in mind that by this point Rei has basically figured out that Touko is the one Yuu is interested in, so these thoughts are already in context of a homosexual relationship.

Touko's parents couldn't stop her from hurting herself, so they can't stop her from dating a girl, but they appear to just want her to become herself again, so that's why I don't think they will mind the method much.

Yes yes yes

YAAAAAAASSSSSSS, I'm crying

Touko's parents couldn't stop her from hurting herself, so they can't stop her from dating a girl, but they appear to just want her to become herself again, so that's why I don't think they will mind the method much.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hurting herself" when it comes to Touko. Her family, or at least people at her sister's funeral, shamed her into believing that to be worth anything she had to be like her sister. It's a result of people not being able to accept death, especially when someone dies young, so they project the deceased onto someone living, and then expect the living to live on as the deceased. This is what hurt Touko not a case of self harming.

Well, Rei does think their mom might oppose it, but looking at the other times this has come up even jokingly, so far only Yuu's father has said anything at all about her possibly having a girlfriend, and even that was basically just admitting he wouldn't know what to do, while the rest of the family doesn't either seem to care either way or, in case of her sister, is clearly supportive.

I don't put much into what people say facetiously, that said her father was being honest and I don't think Rei was joking, at least not entirely.

You mean this? Seems more likely to be about her efforts to be like Mio than anything else.

The play was about moving beyond projected images and expectations of others as Touko's character finds the strength to live on as herself. The relationship with Sayaka's character continues as Sayaka promises to continue loving Touko even though she's "changed". The complete opposite of trying to emulate someone else. Her father did think that Touko was doing the play just for Mio's sake, but this was not entirely true. Yuu points out that no matter the expectations of others, she only knows Touko, and the play was something Touko also wanted to do for herself.

I think Touko wanted to do the play because she felt it would bring her closer to understanding her sister. And through the play, she learned she herself likes acting. I call that a positive. I would assume their discussion to be about Touko, not her sister, again.

last edited at May 3, 2019 5:05AM

[...] and I don't think Rei was joking, at least not entirely.

Well, her reactions when Touko finally visits show that she did not really expect it to be true, but seeing how the two behave does remind her of her own words and make her suspicious. Even more so in the extra chapter where Touko's reactions pretty much confirm things for Rei, enough that she actually proceeds to send Touko a photo of Yuu sleeping. Would not put it past her to have been stealthily probing Yuu even with that initial comment, though, she's clearly well aware that this is a possibility as well.

I think Touko wanted to do the play because she felt it would bring her closer to understanding her sister. And through the play, she learned she herself likes acting. I call that a positive. I would assume their discussion to be about Touko, not her sister, again.

Well, yes, it is obviously about Touko, but nothing suggests it's specifically about her sexuality or whom she's dating, but rather talking about all the things they've kept to themselves, both Touko and her parents. While the play is what prompts this change, the words used by her parents ("We've said too little for too long...") show that it's not a talk about some sudden realizations based on her character's orientation, but rather about things left unsaid during the past years.

last edited at May 3, 2019 5:11AM

Well, her reactions when Touko finally visits show that she did not really expect it to be true...

Right, which is why I say at least not entirely. She's surprised, but not taken aback.

Well, yes, it is obviously about Touko, but nothing suggests it's specifically about her sexuality or whom she's dating, but rather talking about all the things they've kept to themselves, both Touko and her parents. While the play is what prompts this change, the words used by her parents ("We've said too little for too long...") show that it's not a talk about some sudden realizations based on her character's orientation, but rather about things left unsaid during the past years.

I do not say it would be specifically about her sexuality only that I'd be surprised if the subject wasn't brought up. I meant that the discussion would be influenced by content of the play in context to Touko. I agree that it would be an open discussion. I mean, how much talk is needed to make up for talking too little? My surprise doesn't mean much compared to what the character's would feel needed to be covered for a successful conversation. That said, sudden openness can open doors of unexpected discussion. Even so, I can not say in entirety what Touko wants to share and learn and of what her parent's want to share and learn.

It doesn't even have to be brought up directly. Simply wishing for someone to be themselves and happy as they are, and offering to accept them for who they are, goes a long way. Well, when I came out my sister said she didn't believe me and years later I still have to remind my mom... so...

last edited at May 3, 2019 5:47AM

Ok finally, now time to fuck

^ Oh, c'mon, Chaussette! I was enjoying all the long comments that were elaborating on past events to give us a picture of what might happen next and was about to add another thing to it, and now you ruined my mood!

EDIT:
ahem Anyway...
I remember some posts talking about the reactions within Yuu's family, and it all comes back to that chapter that focused on Yuu and Rei. As others mentioned earlier, Rei is obviously supportive, and she thinks dad would go along it as well, while mom will be the biggest obstacle. However, if I remember correctly, Rei also thought that grandma would go with whatever mom goes with, so the "opposition" in the Koito family probably won't be just one-person-strong.

last edited at May 3, 2019 6:02AM

Touko's parents couldn't stop her from hurting herself, so they can't stop her from dating a girl, but they appear to just want her to become herself again, so that's why I don't think they will mind the method much.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hurting herself" when it comes to Touko. Her family, or at least people at her sister's funeral, shamed her into believing that to be worth anything she had to be like her sister. It's a result of people not being able to accept death, especially when someone dies young, so they project the deceased onto someone living, and then expect the living to live on as the deceased. This is what hurt Touko not a case of self harming.

It is rather simple to put the blame on her relatives, but that is wrong. Touko herself chose to interpret their words that way and tried to live up to such expectations. Her guilt for Mio's death and desire to appeal to them was the main driving factor for her decision to become Mio.
Very clearly her parents were not part of those misleading expectations as they did not want her to do it.

By continuing to act strong and "perfect" Touko kept hurting herself with that facade. Her parents told her to stop, yet she continued. So quite obviously, they could not stop her from hurting herself.

Touko was afraid to be herself, so the blame lies with her. It's understandable and a horrible situation to be in, but it was her decision. That's what she kept telling Yuu as well.

^ Quite. Remember, Touko stomps away from the dinner table when her father rather gently says that she doesn’t need to keep pushing herself (implicitly, pushing herself to imitate Mio).

At that point, the simulation is all she feels she has. I’m sure that her parents went along with the whole high-achiever project—most parents wouldn’t object to their child getting good grades and being respected by others—until the play came up, which drove home how much she was trying to compensate for the dead sister.

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration or misreading to see Touko’s base self-image as a form of self-harm, although I think guilt about her sister’s death can be overstated as the specific central motivation. While some degree of survivor’s guilt is implicit in the situation, Touko actually stresses how much she despised her weak, childish self and insists that she’s never going back to that way of being.

To be clear, the “self-harm” I mean is simply being locked into a pattern where she feels like a fake person who is unworthy of love.

On the other good news front, volume 7 is n°23 in the Oricon ranking this week, with 30,804 copies sold. A pretty decent score, even by non-yuri standards. =]

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration or misreading to see Touko’s base self-image as a form of self-harm, although I think guilt about her sister’s death can be overstated as the specific central motivation. While some degree of survivor’s guilt is implicit in the situation, Touko actually stresses how much she despised her weak, childish self and insists that she’s never going back to that way of being.

As far as guilt goes, I may have somewhat overstated it. This is more of a gut feeling to be sure. These two pages...
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch17#4
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch17#5
...have left a rather big impact on me. Even more so in the anime version of the scene. I cannot help but think that for someone so young, this innocent game of rock paper scissors is indeed the "reason" Mio died and thus makes it her fault. As Touko grew up she might have logically realized that it was not her fault, but emotionally we can see she has never gotten over it.

last edited at May 3, 2019 9:34AM

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration or misreading to see Touko’s base self-image as a form of self-harm, although I think guilt about her sister’s death can be overstated as the specific central motivation. While some degree of survivor’s guilt is implicit in the situation, Touko actually stresses how much she despised her weak, childish self and insists that she’s never going back to that way of being.

As far as guilt goes, I may have somewhat overstated it. This is more of a gut feeling to be sure. These two pages...
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch17#4
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch17#5
...have left a rather big impact on me. Even more so in the anime version of the scene. I cannot help but think that for someone so young, this innocent game of rock paper scissors is indeed the "reason" Mio died and thus makes it her fault. As Touko grew up she might have logically realized that it was not her fault, but emotionally we can see she has never gotten over it.

Right, guilt must play some kind of role, but what Touko actually says is that she “had to take her place,” then stresses the rewards of being praised.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch10#35

The overall effect of Touko’s thoughts on the matter (to me) don’t really seem to be about atonement for being at fault for her sister’s death, but more about having become the “Replacement Goldfish” (a la TV Tropes), she’s unwilling to give up that role, especially since to her the “real Touko” is a shy, sniveling dummy (although I personally think little crybaby Touko is adorable in the brief glimpse we get of her).

Right, guilt must play some kind of role, but what Touko actually says is that she “had to take her place,” then stresses the rewards of being praised.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch10#35

The overall effect of Touko’s thoughts on the matter (to me) don’t really seem to be about atonement for being at fault for her sister’s death, but more about having become the “Replacement Goldfish” (a la TV Tropes), she’s unwilling to give up that role, especially since to her the “real Touko” is a shy, sniveling dummy (although I personally think little crybaby Touko is adorable in the brief glimpse we get of her).

And to me those rewards sound much like an excuse. Which is not strictly addressed anywhere, so I will have to concede that the other parts weigh in more.

I just want to mention that especially with the play, the overall reasoning and tone was always "I am doing this for my sister. I will finally finish what you started. I have to do this. I will become Mio and do it." It naturally plays into her filling the void and abandoning her weak self, but does this not strongly point towards atonement to you?
Touko never even considered what she would do after the play. She only moved forward to reach this goal, the one thing Mio could never finish, because she died. If Touko only wished to become like her sister (or even become her), I just can't justify the constant reminders that she is doing it for Mio. Becoming a replacement for her own sake just never even felt like an option.

Maybe its just genre savviness, but the sentiment of "I will live the life you could never live for you." is something quite common and strong.

We're not disagreeing, BugDevil, but for me the genre expectations cut a bit the other way--in stories where the central issue is something like "I caused my sister's death," I'm used to getting much more direct callbacks to that theme, more about the sister herself and their previous relationship.

Notice that there's almost nothing about the sister in the wake of the play, no return to the gravesite to tell Mio that her quest has finally been fulfilled or any other "putting the guilt to rest" scene, etc.--it's all about Touko going forward.

It's true that the play became her goal because of her sister, but that seems to me primarily because Touko was modeling herself on her sister, and the play happened to be the last thing her sister planned to do while she was alive (except getting the milk, of course). Touko's not unlike a ghostwriter who takes over a series after the original novelist's death--once the dead writer's notes have run out, where do you go next? (Which is exactly the question Touko asks herself.)

In fact, Touko's taking up with Yuu in the first place indicates that from the very start she really wants some way out of the prison she's built for herself.

In a lightly related matter, one of the remarkable things about this series is that it creates drama and conflict without anyone doing much of anything that's unequivocally wrong. I'm sure I'm forgetting something but the closest things to real "bad behavior" in the entire series that I can recall are:

• Touko's family/friends at the funeral pressuring her to be like Mio
• Akari's senpai lying that he doesn't already have a girlfriend when he rejects her
• Sayaka's senpai dumping her because of Lesbian Until Graduation syndrome

I've kind of had it lately with stories about good guys and bad guys and people plotting against each other--it's a relief to see a non-fluffy, non-boring story where people are mostly trying to do right by one another, and mostly succeeding to varying degrees.

I don't think we can actually speculate much on how the parents will react. I mean, nobody visibly freaked out about the gay themes in the play, but Yuu's dad was uncomfortable at the idea of Yuu having a girlfriend. But the thing about bigotry is that it's really kind of hard to predict where it will come out. It's divorced from reason and is sometimes viceral, and some otherwise very nice people can turn suddenly ugly when they find out somebody is gay. So I'm not placing bets, but I imagine Rei is going to have to do SOMETHING for them at some point.

If you read the side-chapter where Rei and Yuu go shopping again, Rei explicitly thinks that their father is a pushover who always goes along with what the others want in the end. Therefore we can easily predict the same happening here. Not everything is about bigotry...

In the same chapter Rei said that their mother would be the biggest obstacle.

Keep in mind that by this point Rei has basically figured out that Touko is the one Yuu is interested in, so these thoughts are already in context of a homosexual relationship.

Touko's parents couldn't stop her from hurting herself, so they can't stop her from dating a girl, but they appear to just want her to become herself again, so that's why I don't think they will mind the method much.

Yes, I know that, but my point is people will surprise you. People that are staunchly opposed to same-sex relationships can turn around surprisingly quickly once it's -their kid-, while at the same time, people that you expect might be tolerant can have visceral reactions to homosexuality within their family.

So it's somewhat of a question. Is Rei right? was that foreshadowing on Nakatani's part, or is she establishing expectations so that we can share the character's surprise when they turn out wrong? Honestly, I don't see any real reason to assume Rei is wrong, so that's kind of fair enough, but when it comes to Touko's parents, I think they're much more of a question mark. Her dad could view being gay as just another way that she's acting out. He could blame it on the play. He could embrace it and be super cool about it. My point is that we don't know, because we've seen and learned less about Touko's family compared to Yuu's.

last edited at May 3, 2019 12:19PM

[...] and I don't think Rei was joking, at least not entirely.

Well, her reactions when Touko finally visits show that she did not really expect it to be true, but seeing how the two behave does remind her of her own words and make her suspicious. Even more so in the extra chapter where Touko's reactions pretty much confirm things for Rei, enough that she actually proceeds to send Touko a photo of Yuu sleeping. Would not put it past her to have been stealthily probing Yuu even with that initial comment, though, she's clearly well aware that this is a possibility as well.

I don't think she was joking at all, honestly, I mean, look at the context of the scene. She comes in on her mom talking about how nice someone is and how Yuu is lucky to have them around. She naturally jumps to "Oh, Sis has a boyfriend?" Then they say they're talking about a girl, and she goes to "girlfriend?" naturally, because she hasn't let go of the initial assumption: It sounds like they're talking about a romantic relationship.

I think it's more of an offhand comment than a joke. The way I read it, she's catching up on a conversation in progress, that's all. Once she's told that it isn't a romantic relationship, she lets go of the idea, but then comes the planetarium device, and then she meets Touko, and Touko is very keen on knowing how to make Yuu's favorite foods, and at that point she knows what's up.

But one thing that has always jumped out at me in that scene is Yuu's reaction to her dad's comment. In the first translation I saw, he said something about putting his foot down, which sounds more opposed, in this it's more just like "Man, I wouldn't know what to do". I'm not sure which is more accurate to the original, but either way, I know that feeling. That little silent awkward lonely moment after somebody you love and respect unknowingly says something negative about the identity that you're discovering for yourself. Rei may have identified Mom as the problem, but I bet that Yuu is more apprehensive about what her dad will do or say about it.

But one thing that has always jumped out at me in that scene is Yuu's reaction to her dad's comment. In the first translation I saw, he said something about putting his foot down, which sounds more opposed, in this it's more just like "Man, I wouldn't know what to do". I'm not sure which is more accurate to the original, but either way, I know that feeling. That little silent awkward lonely moment after somebody you love and respect unknowingly says something negative about the identity that you're discovering for yourself. Rei may have identified Mom as the problem, but I bet that Yuu is more apprehensive about what her dad will do or say about it.

You are talking about this scene right?
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch04#10

I feel a sense of deja vu here, but anyway... You are probably interpreting too much into it due to a prior bias (we all have those). That scene really doesn't show Yuu reacting negatively in any way and there is no indication that her silence has anything to do with what her father said. If anything she is just in thought because of what Rei said. A thought a la "Is that really what we look like to others?"
The entire "discovering her identity" thing was not even relevant back then. At this point Yuu firmly believed she wasn't in love or could ever love.
I have real trouble seeing Yuu be apprehensive about it because her father made a random remark once that she barely even registered. It's not impossible, but if Yuu has any hang ups about coming out to her family, I doubt it would be because of that.

last edited at May 3, 2019 1:06PM

I tend to agree with a more neutral reading of that line from the dad (or rather, Yuu’s reaction to it). We tend to put a lot of emphasis on the nuances of that scene because it’s one of the few scraps of evidence we have on the matter of the family’s potential reaction to Yuu coming out (besides Rei being a staunch ally, of course).

But of course Yuu already has all the evidence about those potential reactions that we never got just by, like, living in her family her whole life. And who knows, for all we—or even Rei—know, maybe the grandma will rise up as a homophobic dragon, or, on the other hand, maybe she went to a girl’s school herself and has never forgotten the loss of her tomboy best friend.

Purely from a narrative point of view, it’s logical that Rei has been established as an unspoken support for Yuu’s sexuality in order to play some role beyond mere cheesecake-recipe distribution, which implies at least some token initial resistance in the family for her to help overcome. But, going strictly by the evidence in the text, it’s at least as likely that we get a scene where Yuu and Touko spill the beans to the family and Rei says, “See, it’s like I’ve been telling you guys all along—Yuu’s pretty senpai is your new daughter-in-law.”