She was supportive of Sumin about the parents, she was just trying to get her out of depression by saying it was enough and she needed to react. Yes, in a rough way, but also Sumin was acting extremely defeated, and Seju was super worried. It wasn't unreasonable behaviour from Seju. I've had my gf do the same when I am acting like giving up on life because of difficulties. The proof that Sumin didn't think it was such a big deal, was because she wanted to make it up.

That’s based on your character. Sumin is designed differently from you. And the motivation that it was done out of tough love is lost in translation because Seju declares that she was afraid that Sumin was going leave her; hence why she picked a fight and got drunk.

Fear was what motivated Seju to be pushy, not love.

And like Sumin said, she pushes herself to move on because Seju is all she has left. It was more like ‘I’ll move on because that’s what you want and you’re the only person I have and I don’t want to lose anymore’ rather than ‘It’s not a big deal that you don’t understand me.’

I suspect that's the core of our difference in interpreting these characters. You seem to think understanding someone means being a doormat, not asking questions, not ever demanding anything. I don't see it that way. For me, this kind of thing is super unhealthy. But hey maybe in Korea it's some kind of ideal.

Like I said, it’s due to her inexperience/eagerness. She’s flawed but her flaws are intended to make her a more suitable partner for Sumin.

Sumin needed someone new and semi-desperate for her love in order to put up with her bullsh*t in the beginning. But slowly we’re seeing that it’s paying off.

I say slowly because the narrative’s being prolonged.

You just interpret every one of Sungji's actions as some kind of selfless act. Every time she was hurt and angry, she took off. Seju was hurt and angry too, her whole life, but she stayed.

Not every act. Her leading her friend on in order to see if she could move on from Sumin is scummy. She was still remembering Sumin so it’s clear she wouldn’t be able to give her friend any love. Also, I could say that the reason she’s so willing to be a doormat is because she wants Sumin to stay with her, which is selfish and unhealthy.

Provide a specific example as to how Sungji just ran off because she was hurt and angry. I’m not trying to goad you or anything. I’m really trying to understand your point of view and it’s been a while since I read the manga so there might be stuff I’m missing.

But Seju did run off because she was hurt and angry. The difference is something happened with Seju, something that cost her her forever, so she learned her lesson. She stopped drinking because she made a mistake.

Precisely my point: she is not a character, she is a plot device and "understanding of Sumin no matter what" is her only visible characteristic at this point, after starting out as an interesting character.

The way I see it, she doesn’t accept Sumin back after the cheating because she understands or has forgiven Sumin. I feel like she did it because she wants to keep loving her. It was hard trying to get over her so she just stopped resisting and Sumin was leaving and she didn’t want to lose her.

It’s a lot like that trope of why girls love bad boys. The whole ‘I can change them’ attitude.

Which seems to pay off because Sumin was the one who followed her to her friends wedding in hopes of reconciliation/just because Sumin wanted to see her. Sumin is also more open now about things, about her insecurities, and her past.

The plot device in the story are Seju’s family members and Nami.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 12:01AM

So much Deja'vu in this thread. Life really is cyclical in nature.

Ha. Really? Like I said, new to the thread.

@anim8tur: we are apparently the more polite reincarnation of yoonie (SejuxSumin) vs sunbaenim (SungjixSumin) LOL They have literally dozens of discussion pages. I was even being accused of being the literal yoonie by sunbaenim.

We will reach a conclusion at some point. Stay tuned for the next chapters, that's all we can do now.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 12:14AM

So much Deja'vu in this thread. Life really is cyclical in nature.

Ha. Really? Like I said, new to the thread.

Nothing new is really being argued and it's mostly the same points, only difference is that the SungjixSumin side comes across as more factual rather than emotive this time round.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 12:52AM

@matsuri_wins Do you have any counterpoints to offer in regards to my observations from my previous post?

Like I said I’m not trying to start an argument or even change your mind. I’m really trying to comprehend your view point so I’m curioius as to what you have to say.

I confess to you and Es0teric that my objectivity and ability to remain logical and factual stems from my desire to understand where TG went wrong with their character portrayals.

I wish to know where TG lacked to depict key moments/situations/motivations/etc.

I’m not here because I have a side. I’m not here to fight for a character fave. I’m not here to try to debunk your beliefs. I’m not here because I feel you’re wrong and I’m right.

You have your reasons to feel the way you feel.

I’m simply trying to understand what’s missing in the story to make you believe that way so please, feel free to offer counterpoints.

Also, I’m enjoying the exchanges.

It’s nice to see that there are people capable of having healthy discussions even though we have opposing ideals.

This thread is so popular it keeps popping up in the front page xD And all I see is this one huge argument spinning around in circles. I read everything, and—People keep saying the same things back and forth bc of lack of understanding and unity. I’d say to just move on already and shake hands haha.

@matsuri_wins Do you have any counterpoints to offer in regards to my observations from my previous post?

I already offered them. You don't accept them or agree with them, which is understandable since all we have mentioned are valid interpretations, but still interpretations of what happened. In this story, as I mentioned, there are in fact 2 narratives being told which people capture according to their own beliefs and preferences:

"WDTFS is about a girl, Sumin, escaping from a toxic relationship with problematic, unempathetic Seju by loving new girl Sungji"

"WDTFS is about 2 people who are true love for each other, Sumin and Seju, going through a crisis due to mistakes and immaturity on both ends, plus some horrible circumstances, and healing in a convoluted manner including by meeting new people".

That's why the arguments are always the same and people go around in circles, and nobody can ever decide between Seju or Sungji. Well, that's how the authors make their money so I'm not gonna complain.

Like I said I’m not trying to start an argument or even change your mind. I’m really trying to comprehend your view point so I’m curioius as to what you have to say.

I confess to you and Es0teric that my objectivity and ability to remain logical and factual stems from my desire to understand where TG went wrong with their character portrayals.

You are not objective and I'm not either. When it comes to a story like this, it's simply not possible since a lot of things are shown but to give it a judgement of value, you are using your preferences and beliefs from your own personal life. As an example, one person is shown the post sex scene in chapter 108, and they will interpret "Sumin is slowly moving on in life". Another will interpret "Sumin doesn't truly love this girl". The reason is because the story is just showing you things and not being clear about how to understand them. And again this is just on purpose, it keeps people engaged in time-sucking discussions like this lol

I wish to know where TG lacked to depict key moments/situations/motivations/etc.

I’m not here because I have a side. I’m not here to fight for a character fave. I’m not here to try to debunk your beliefs. I’m not here because I feel you’re wrong and I’m right.

You have your reasons to feel the way you feel.

I’m simply trying to understand what’s missing in the story to make you believe that way so please, feel free to offer counterpoints.

Also, I’m enjoying the exchanges.

It’s nice to see that there are people capable of having healthy discussions even though we have opposing ideals.

What's missing in the story, and what's structurally wrong with the story...let me summarize my points from a previous post. This is the gist of my argument, and I got nothing else to say really until Team GJ proves me wrong. It's what I wrote before with some points added and better articulated.

I like Sungji as fictional person (her traits as a kind and nice person). But I dislike her as a character in this story because of the failure to make her stand out enough as a lead. In order to be a true lead, she would need to be shown to steal Sumin's heart away not simply due to "being understanding of Sumin": besides feeling inherently linked to her inexperience (would Sumin dating any very young girl do?), her being understanding is also badly written to the point of feeling artificial. In order to feel real, she would need to have other, active personality characteristics. Which she did show at first in the series but they were quickly forgotten in favour of her just being understanding and classic "Nice Girl". Simultaneously to that, Team GJ increased Seju's depth as a character from an initial "I'm a bitch and I know it" portrayal.

Instead of making Sungji super special so as to convince us she is Sumin's fated love, after literally 108 chapters the author's choices continuously tip the balance towards an interpretation of the story in which Sumin is so afraid of her love for Seju (shown at all times as the "fated love"), that she needs to find a replacement. Their scenes are more impactful every single time as far as classic depictions of true love goes, with no attempts at showing the relationship with Sungji as something that shines on its own. In fact, the scene by scene comparisons to better versions of what happened between Seju and Sumin in the past has only increased as the series progressed.

If the intention is to show Sumin healing and moving on with a different person, they could choose to show her experiencing new things and emotions with Sungji progressively. Even if this is an abnormally slow healing story, you still gotta show people actually healing rather than tied to the past. It's been 108 chapters and we are now in side story territory, with both Paradise and One being Seju-centric, and SejuxSumin feeling more fated than ever lol When are they planning to develop Sungji and make her the "it" girl, during the final side story only? If so, okay, but this is just plain bad writing.

So structurally speaking, the narrative itself points to SejuxSumin as true love despite their flaws (which they are now working to fix I guess), and it's easy to know why that's not the ending we got: because the story isn't over yet.

If Team GJ ever makes SejuxSumin get back together, the narrative would absolutely end there. What else would they have to tell us? Whether that means they will keep this structure until the very end and then switch to show that SungjixSumin are true love in a hurry, or if they intend to get SejuxSumin together I have no clue. But one is bad writing, the other is genius writing. Since bad writing is more common, my bet is they will switch to "look how SungjixSumin are perfect" in a hurry.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 9:43AM

^
So that was clear, nuanced, even-handed, and well-supported.

Who are you, and what did you do with my old sparring partner matsuri_wins?

(I was tempted to extend the gag with a “yoonie, that is you, isn’t it?” joke, but then thought better of it.)

Shocking I know. Who knew I could reason anything beyond “when is the 3P?”, “even if they are not in love, they could just make out” and “time for Truck-kun!” :P

I am sure yoonie would be proud. Whomever they are lol

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 3:42PM

matsuri_wins You're unlikely to be Yoonie as you seem to understand objectivity, where as they did not when i made a similar argument against them.

In saying that we could apply that very argument against your interpretation of the narrative structure and what you think is "genius" writing. It's still based of how you interpret the story structure, narrative and "mis-en-scene" and that comes from both your experiences in life and biases for and against characters.

anim8tur While i agree with a lot of what you say and read into the story/narration/structure in a similar way i don't think you are completely objective either because it's not possible by the way of human nature itself. When i said the closest commenter to being objective i didn't mean to infer that i thought you were completely objective sorry.

Let's all try to keep our egos in check, otherwise this may just become another Nora/Foxy saga.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 6:55PM

^
So that was clear, nuanced, even-handed, and well-supported.

Who are you, and what did you do with my old sparring partner matsuri_wins?

(I was tempted to extend the gag with a “yoonie, that is you, isn’t it?” joke, but then thought better of it.)

Blastaar rn :v

matsuri_wins You're unlikely to be Yoonie as you seem to understand objectivity, where as they did not when i made a similar argument against them.

In saying that we could apply that very argument against your interpretation of the narrative structure and what you think is "genius" writing. It's still based of how you interpret the story structure, narrative and "mis-en-scene" and that comes from both your experiences in life and biases for and against characters.

That part is not interpretation, it’s basic knowledge of how to write stories and evaluating their quality.

If Team GJ is writing the story type A (“Sumin escapes from toxic relationship into arms of lovable new girl”) they are writing a BAD story, by putting excessive attention to all things Seju: all these backscenes throughout the main story, Seju and all her family problems hijacking the 2nd half of the story (there was a point I literally found myself surprised Sungji was still part of it lol), then Paradise, and when they finally show Sungji-centric chapter it’s just rehash of Seju scenes. What the actual f?

As a comparison, a good type A story in the world of Yuri manga is Pulse. Gave plenty of backstory to the toxic “villain”, even made her somewhat relatable, but in no point of the story do you doubt, for a nanosecond, that the new girl is right for the “healing girl”, and you cheer for them intensely all along. The new girl is developed really well and is highly memorable from a storywriting standpoint. Also: in no moment the “healing girl” tells the ex she is leaving with the new girl but still loves her so much that in order to stay with new girl they need to part (what a bucket of cold water that would be, putting in question the entire love story!)

Now if Team GJ is writing story B (“fated couple has a lot of problems, date other ppl who are also important characters, find way back”) then there might be a light at the end of the quality tunnel here, because then they are justified in writing things the way they have been. So what I have, as far as the analysis of the story structure goes, is not bias but rather the hope that what I am reading is a good story rather than a story that failed at a basic narrative level.

Now am I biased towards certain characters? Yeah of course. I don’t like Sumin. But that doesn’t have anything to do with this analysis, I would have been happy with a story type A if it’s a good one. But it’s not lol

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 7:18PM

matsuri_wins You're unlikely to be Yoonie as you seem to understand objectivity, where as they did not when i made a similar argument against them.

In saying that we could apply that very argument against your interpretation of the narrative structure and what you think is "genius" writing. It's still based of how you interpret the story structure, narrative and "mis-en-scene" and that comes from both your experiences in life and biases for and against characters.

That part is not interpretation, it’s basic knowledge of how to write stories and evaluating their quality.

If Team GJ is writing the story type A (“Sumin escapes from toxic relationship into arms of lovable new girl”) they are writing a BAD story, by putting excessive attention to all things Seju: all these backscenes throughout the main story, Seju and all her family problems hijacking the 2nd half of the story (there was a point I literally found myself surprised Sungji was still part of it lol), then Paradise, and when they finally show Sungji-centric chapter it’s just rehash of Seju scenes. What the actual f?

As a comparison, a good type A story in the world of Yuri manga is Pulse. Gave plenty of backstory to the toxic “villain”, even made her somewhat redeemable/relatable, but in no point of the story do you doubt, for a nanosecond, that the new girl is right for the “healing girl”, and you cheer for them intensely all along. The new girl is developed really well and is highly memorable from a storywriting standpoint. Also: in no moment the “healing girl” tells the ex she is leaving with the new girl but still loves her so much that in order to stay with new girl they need to part (what a bucket of cold water that would be, putting in question the entire love story!)

Now if Team GJ is writing story B (“fated couple has a lot of problems, date other ppl who are also important characters, find way back”) then there might be a light at the end of the quality tunnel here, because then they are justified in writing things the way they have been.

Hey, I know I haven’t been part of the conversation but I have to disagree. Sumin legitimately fell in love with Sungji imo. At first Sumin just thought Sungji was just one of those girls blindly attracted to her and want sexual favors, but the moment they shared moments together (like Sungji hugging her and being there for her when she needed consolation instead of something sexual, conversations, incidents where Sumin had to butt in to save her, etc.), Sumin progressively got attached to her. Sumin was attracted to her bc of her honesty and untainted nature. Sungji is definitely not a replacement because Sumin didn’t fall in love with her in a way she compared her to somebody else. She fell in love because Sungji was Sungji.

I think the moments that she thinks about Seju are there because she also feels a bit guilty about what she and Seju have become now. There is no indication that she still thinks of her as a romantic interest. She’s just worried about Seju because of the crap she had to go through bc of her family, and the abuse Seju has to deal with, etc.

Sungji was an effective healer because Sumin learns her mistakes through Sungji forgiving her, telling her things that give her insight, etc.

As I mentioned before, this is a healing drama where “gray” people (not black or white or bad or good), ie, realistic people, learn to forget and forgive past issues.

No one is really in the wrong or right.

^ Just to make clear, I am not talking about what the story tells but how the story is telling it. All I am saying is that if this is the story above they are telling (and I suspect it is, but hope it is not), the story is simply not told well. Because it fell flat to a significant portion of the readers despite them knowing that the SungjixSumin end was inevitable, it was a total letdown. Sungji should have been more developed and eclipsed Seju in importance if she is the chosen love interest.

I myself am still waiting for her to be developed beyond rehash scenes and to have meaningful conversations with Sumin. Even something basic like: what is this giant tattoo on your shoulder? Lolz But it’s been 108 chapters so I am not holding my breath for it.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 7:38PM

I’m trying to pinpoint the cause of disarray. If it’s bias that might be subconscious because of a character preference, or if it’s a conflict of personal ideologies between characters and readers, or a lack of proper portrayal, or a detail that was missed, or a combination of all those things.

Of course our interpretations are based on our beliefs and experiences but some of the things I mentioned are not emotion/experience based. I’m not insinuating that I’m a robot and if I’m coming off as egotistical, well I guess that’s your interpretation. ; D

Anyway, some points were merely a rehashing of things which actually happened and things characters explicitly did or said.

Crucial occurrences that seem to have gotten lost in translation/forgotten/ignored.

But I think most of us can agree that TG is squeezing the story (for every penny it’s worth but this could just be me) and the story and characters are suffering for it.

It feels like neither stories are over.

Regardless of how we interpret the new chapters so far, if Paradise was supposed to be Seju centric then why, this late in the game, were we introduced to a new character that has nothing to do with her coming story arc?

TG could have just shown all of Sumin’s friends getting rejected repeatedly by her until they gave up trying, so why bother with the creation of Sunhwa?

It’s that plus Sumin’s whole ‘I’m afraid my past will hurt you.’ attitude, which demonstrates her healing isn’t finished in 108, that makes me think that even Sungjimin isn’t done either.

Begs the question: Sumin already cheated on Sungji with her first love so what more can possibly happen?

Honestly, TG is kind of repeating things at this point. Sunhwa is just like Sungji’s friend. They’re both characters that have been in love with the mains since high school who don’t get to be with their first love.

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 7:50PM

Now am I biased towards certain characters? Yeah of course. I don’t like Sumin. But that doesn’t have anything to do with this analysis, I would have been happy with a story type A if it’s a good one. But it’s not lol

I swear I’m not trying to be contrary on purpose! It’s just that Pulse doesn’t nearly have as much drama as WDTFS.

Both are healing fics but Pulse is less complicated than WDTFS.

And like Es0teric said, your interpretation is based on your beliefs/experiences. That’s why you’re interpreting a lack of evidence while there are those that feel like there has been enough content to display that Sumin and Sungji are a better fit than Seju and Sumin.

Honestly, who wouldn’t like a dying girl who wishes to experience love for the first time?

But I think most of us can agree that TG is squeezing the story (for every penny it’s worth but this could just be me) and the story and characters are suffering for it.

Lol since I like Seju the most now, and loved Paradise, I'm fine with reading One. But might drop it afterwards.

It feels like neither stories are over.

Regardless of how we interpret the new chapters so far, if Paradise was supposed to be Seju centric then why, this late in the game, were we introduced to a new character that has nothing to do with her coming story arc?

TG could have just shown all of Sumin’s friends getting rejected repeatedly by her until they gave up trying, so why bother with the creation of Sunhwa?

I think Sunhwa is plot device like Da Woon. She is not meant to be taken seriously. She is probably there for foreshadowing, like Seju and Sumin might become friends again if Seju gets over Sumin. Or something.

It’s that plus Sumin’s whole ‘I’m afraid my past will hurt you.’ attitude, which demonstrates her healing isn’t finished in 108, that makes me think that even Sungjimin isn’t done either.

Begs the question: Sumin already cheated on Sungji with her first love so what more can possibly happen?

Sunhwa is the new CEO. Sumin loves banging CEOs. Chaos ensues.

Lol since I like Seju the most now, and loved Paradise, I'm fine with reading One. But might drop it afterwards.

I’m gonna wait til it’s all over before I read it. The drama will be rich and I don’t want to left hanging every week.

I think Sunhwa is plot device like Da Woon. She is not meant to be taken seriously. She is probably there for foreshadowing, like Seju and Sumin might become friends again if Seju gets over Sumin. Or something.

Agree on foreshadowing.

Sunhwa is the new CEO. Sumin loves banging CEOs. Chaos ensues.

Lol. Imagine she sets her eyes on both instead? Threesome ensues...

last edited at Apr 14, 2019 8:17PM

Well, I think we can all agree that Sungjil presence in the story was underwhelming, thanks to the overdramatization of Sumin and Seju. It's like whatever Sungjil does, there's always this constant flashback or mention about Seju and what she did together with Sumin in the past. That must be a tad frustrating for those who are on Team Blonde.

If Seju and Dowon are really going to be a thing in the next side-story, I really hope Seju doesn't keep constantly recalling her past memories with Sumin like every chapter. That's not moving on at all. Not saying she shouldn't forget about her first love completely, but she should be prioritizing what's more important to her at the moment and push those thoughts about Sumin to the further back of the queue.

Well, I guess a part of the fans, as anim8tur mentioned, don't actually think Sungji's presence was underwhelming, and are happy with the way the story was handled on that front. Blows my mind.

And yeah tbh since I am tired of flashbacks, if this is the basis of Seju's romance with Dowon it's going to be "yet another not-quite love story"...

Holy crap, NO FLASHBACKS. Bye a-hole Sumin, see you never!

last edited at Apr 15, 2019 7:54PM

Holy crap, NO FLASHBACKS. Bye a-hole Sumin, see you never!

Lets not start that again, save that for 4chan :P

last edited at Apr 15, 2019 8:59PM

I'm back to ask sth stupid again.

I thought they're going to have suminxsungji's happily ever after so I stopped reading but apparently it was only one chapter? So the suminxsungji's side story is only one chapter or this is just a preview for their side story later on?

And can someone summarize that chapter for me? Cause I'm too lazy to read about suminxsungji, lolllll.

dont read this trash anymore go read moonlight garden and her shimcheong

last edited at Apr 16, 2019 3:54AM by

I'm back to ask sth stupid again.

I thought they're going to have suminxsungji's happily ever after so I stopped reading but apparently it was only one chapter? So the suminxsungji's side story is only one chapter or this is just a preview for their side story later on?

And can someone summarize that chapter for me? Cause I'm too lazy to read about suminxsungji, lolllll.

Sungji and Sumin were celebrating Valentine’s Day. Sungji is trying to bake cake, Sumin helps and produces a strawberry cake, a bigger pro version of the one she baked for Seju in Paradise. Sumin has flowers and wine for Sungji. Then Sungji shows up dressed up as bunny (just like Sumin in one ch of Paradise), Sumin has face paralysis so it’s hard to know if she is super into it or not but I guess she is? Cut to end of sex scene, Sumin has depressing face on saying she is tired (it's actually a really sad/haunted face, I don't think it's there for no reason). Show mirror scene to when Seju hugs her waist when she is trying to leave bed, except this time Sumin is just like “Ah right” rather than saying something romantic or whatever. Sumin proceeds to apologize for saying her cake baking abilities come from dating an ex who was a baker, hard to know if Sungji is insecure or not since she asks questions but then backtracks saying she is just joking and that she knows "Sumin is trying her best”. Sumin says she wants Sungji to take her for a lifetime (again similar to what she told Seju during the cake baking in Paradise). Sungji reacts by telling Sumin she already told her this, and Sumin says she is running out of reportoire and will try something else next time.

Take it as you will......but to me seems like a really underwhelming happily ever after. But realistic tbh. I've never seen a couple that got together by stepping all over someone else's feelings, with a bunch of cheating from the get-go and having to seriously compete with an ex, be happy in the long run. But we will see. That's why I am more hopeful about SejuxDowon, since they are isolated in their little world and that will be hard to ruin unless Sumin legit parachutes to the island.

last edited at Apr 16, 2019 7:27AM