What are you even talking about? I never said there are no stakes, I said that Sayaka winning in the end is unlikely because it doesn't fit the narrative. There are still stakes -within- the narrative, the end result just isn't difficult to predict, because the author has spent five full volumes so far setting it up.

You said Sayaka was an "obstacle" and I'm still wondering how. For as long as your post was I'm impressed you evaded the one simple question I asked. If you're saying there's basically no chance between them... what's the point? And where are the stakes?

Sayaka's role in -this- story is a tragic one. She doesn't get the girl. There's somebody like that in -most- romances, I don't know why you seem so incredulous about this.

I just fundamentally disagree with you. I don't get why you seem to be taking it so badly.

You're writing pointless paragraph after pointless paragraph telling me I don't understand the story and so on yet you're defending your interpretation a tragic character (who has 2 spines, 3 if we get to chapter 9) who you're saying is tragic... pretty much just for the sake of being tragic. To me that's an example of bad writing, not a slow buildup into a triangle. If Sayaka's story had been buttoned up 2 or 3 volumes ago I'd probably agree with you. Where we are now, not so much.

What I will give you is that an author can run the risk of losing the audience who wants their ship to sail. But as I see it there's no clear path from Touko to Yuu either right now, or at least not one that doesn't involve Touko making a grand romantic gesture or acting almost completely out of character.

The dilemma starting now would be a terrible structural mistake. What you are describing is a complete narrative flip 6 volumes into what is probably an 8 volume series, according to hints that have been dropped by the author.

You don't read/watch many triangles do you...

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 9:05AM

But as I see it there's no clear path from Touko to Yuu either right now, or at least not one that doesn't involve Touko making a grand romantic gesture or acting almost completely out of character.

I do not follow most of your argument, so no comment there. But what is “Touko acting completely out of character”? Which “character” are we talking about?

The Touko who has no intention of falling in love with anybody yet who instantly, and apparently sincerely, falls in love with Yuu?

The Touko who changes significantly over the course of the story despite her strong resistance to change?

The Touko who has been conflicted over her multiple false or potential identities/self-images? (Original weak Touko/Fake Perfect Mio/Fake Imperfect Mio, etc.)

Whatever “ship” (a term I am coming to despise) happens, Touko must inevitably confront the question, “Who am I, and what do I want for myself?”

Why “I want to be with Yuu” is not a potential, and indeed the most likely, answer to that question I do not understand.

Nakatani: Touko was created first, Yuu was born as her partner. I like troublesome girls. For me, I wanted to draw a girl that would be unmanageable, so I made Touko the heroine. For me, Yuu has the image of a hero who would help that unmanageable girl. That being said, I think of the characters as if they were born as individual people. It is at most a discussion of “At first it was like that.”

– So it’s a matter of those two moving towards to resolving the problem as a goal. While you draw those delicate feelings, I feel like you thought through the story with reasoning as you talk about the story.

Nakatani: Yes. However, there are times where I would have the characters take action in accordance to the story, “I can’t let them say this line,” “I can’t let them do this much yet.” I draw while keeping in mind the balance between what I want to to do with it as a story, and what the characters would do in the present situation. As I lay down the rails, occasionally with a detour, I put thought into it as I reason out on “How should I go about to bring it here?…..” Something like that.

I drew with the thoughts of wanting Yuu and Touko to be happy, so right now may be the painful part, I would be happy if you would continue to follow.

All this ^ Finally someone I agree with. It all depends on how much story there is left. Sure if it ends in a few more chapters, it must be YuuxTouko, but if the story is long, the introduction of the 3rd-wheeler Sayaka might in fact be because there are 3 protagonists in the story. I mean Sayaka is given an outrageous amount of attention for a 3rd wheeler.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch01 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch02 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch03#3 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch04 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch05 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_toranoana_extra Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch06#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch07#2 StuCo! Centered on Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch08 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch09 Yuu. Chapter about is Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_interlude_before_daybreak Sayaka's first chapter! ...which was an interlude. Literally a side chapter.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch10#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch11 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch12 Sayaka!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_her_sisters_perspective Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch13 Yuu! Chapter is about Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch14 Yuu and Sayaka!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch15#4 The three girls!, Chapter is about Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch16 Yuu and Touko's hands probably.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_3 Sayaka! Another side chapter.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch17 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch18#4 Yuu. Chapter is yeah you guessed it.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch19 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch20#3 Yuu again. this is the first chapter that really feels like it's -about- the love triangle, by the way.

...

(promo blurbs are about Yuu and Touko.)

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch21 Title shot of the trio! If they'd all been like this, there might be an argument.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch22#4 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_4 Have a volume cover with the trio, chapter is mostly about Miyako and Riko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch23 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch24 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch25 Koyomi!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch26 Yuu.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch27 Touko. (Guess what's next?)
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch28 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_5 Yuu! Side chapter about her thinking about Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch29 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch30 Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch31#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch32 Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch33 Yuu and...Rei! Cute sisters cooking together!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch34#3 Yuu.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_6 Riko! Side chapter about Riko and Miyako's past.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch35#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch36 It only took us thirty six chapters to get our second Sayaka focused cover page!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch37#3 Touko and Sayaka! This is literally the first cover page focused on them as a pair.

These are just the chapter cover pages (or first pages on the special chapters, which don't have cover pages) But I think it illustrates my point pretty well.

Also most of the volume covers and virtually all of the external promotional images are about Yuu and Touko being gay together. Sayaka has a whopping five title pages, two of which are of the three girls together, two of which are her by herself, and only one of which pairs her with Touko. (Edit: Oh, forgot about the one of Yuu and Sayaka, and the one with StuCo all together.)

Edit again: Man, I don't know why I don't proofread before I send these things. Corrected some typos)

That's so stupid I need to stop your efforts right here lol I've been trolling (and I'd guess others also unless they are delusional readers) and you take it seriously to this level, amassing evidence to prove that some couple from a fictional story is meant to be. What do you want with this, to "enlighten the masses" or feel satisfaction that you won an argument that has a self-evident correct answer? WTF lol I appreciate your effort actually but you don't need to go to that extent, we already know.

Of course Touko and Yuu are going to be together. Let's be real here: this is a romance story with the message "love is helping the person you love to improve" in the most stereotypical setting in the world of yuri mangas (StuCo blabla), with just a few calculated twists/stereotype aversions and "muh symbolism". Those were crafted into the story in such a manner that it seems they were placed there in order to trick naive readers into thinking there is something particularly different or high quality about it, even though it's got zero creativity. The OP of the anime made me uneasy precisely because of the symbolism being so blatant that it was pretentious.

And being pretentious and overly-polished/over-engineered is the main criticism I have of Bloom Into You (having criticism doesn't mean I don't appreciate it by the way). The story doesn't even feel like it was written from the heart, in my opinion. The romance between Yuu and Touko feels oddly artificial to me, although I can't put in proper words why. The characters feel like they are studies on certain emotions etc, rather than real people, rendering the end result "intellectual" in nature rather than making me feel what the characters feel. Then only because it does have a very well structured narrative, which IS awesome, people here act like it's art or something, meaning they indeed fell for the "pretentious" effect. Even though the end result is more a story that is constantly a 6 or 7. No bumps on the road also means the story brings no excitement, it becomes just a "nice read".

As for Sayaka, maybe folks would like some uncertainty on her being a serious contender for Touko's heart because then maybe, just maybe, the story becomes more exciting and like real life rather than an intellectual visual study on "What is love?"

Shipping is the worst. Which is why the author's intention and the narrative is all you need.

There has been zero doubt on those two fronts as to how this ends. Right now the most shade you can throw at it is how you get there. Some have the unecessarily cruel preference of reaching that point on Sayaka's broken back, but at least nobody can deny where it will ultimately end up.

@matsuri_wins
Ya know, just because you can't relate or empathize doesn't mean it's actually pretentious or artificial, right? A little presumptuous of you.

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 10:06AM

The story feels pretentious and artificial to me, which is why I said it's my opinion several times. If you find it the next holy grail of yuri manga that's only your opinion also lol. In any case, the excessive use of symbolism especially in the anime OP is evidence of pretentiousness kind of independent of anyone's opinion.

The characters feel like they are studies on certain emotions etc, rather than real people, rendering the end result "intellectual" in nature rather than making me feel what the characters feel. Then only because it does have a very well structured narrative, which IS awesome, people here act like it's art or something, meaning they indeed fell for the "pretentious" effect. Even though the end result is more a story that is constantly a 6 or 7. No bumps on the road also means the story brings no excitement, it becomes just a "nice read".

It's certainly true, as I have said many times before, that this series is based on a highly artificial premise centered around two highly implausible character constructions (that is, Touko and Yuu's traits are themselves individually plausible enough, but the likelihood of two people with this particular combination of traits meeting and interacting the specific way they do is extremely small). But as in any fiction, either you grant the basic premise or you don't.

But while "they feel (or don't feel) like real people to me" is a perfectly legitimate reader's reaction, as a critical criterion it's inarguable, and therefore a complete dead end. And in its own way it's "pretentious," since it elevates one reader's subjective impression into the ultimate standard for judging a work. If someone else were to say, "They do feel like real people to me," what possible counter-argument can there be? "You don't feel what you say you feel"?

And I must say that I have little patience for "It's just a story," "You're overthinking it," "Can't you just like it for what it is?", etc. arguments. The "thinking vs. feeling" binary is itself a highly artificial construct, and thinking about stories and how they work, and then trying to put those thoughts into words, can in fact be a very high form of pleasure. If it weren't, I wouldn't be here.

PS: matsuri_wins, this series is a work of art, as is the crappiest piece of shit on this site. A lot of it's just not very good or interesting art.

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 10:20AM

Ya know, just because you can't relate or empathize doesn't mean it's actually pretentious or artificial, right?

Exactly. While I can't quite relate with most things, there are some mental issues of some characters I could relate to some I have. And sometimes, when I get overly emotionally invested in what I read or watch I can get the feelings of the characters (mostly when the emotions in question are the likes of pain, sadness and such).

The characters feel like they are studies on certain emotions etc, rather than real people, rendering the end result "intellectual" in nature rather than making me feel what the characters feel. Then only because it does have a very well structured narrative, which IS awesome, people here act like it's art or something, meaning they indeed fell for the "pretentious" effect. Even though the end result is more a story that is constantly a 6 or 7. No bumps on the road also means the story brings no excitement, it becomes just a "nice read".

It's certainly true, as I have said many times before, that this series is based on a highly artificial premise centered around two highly implausible character constructions (that is, Touko and Yuu's traits are themselves individually plausible enough, but the likelihood of two people with this particular combination of traits meeting and interacting the specific way they do is extremely small). But as in any fiction, either you grant the basic premise or you don't.

But while "they feel (or don't feel) like real people to me" is a perfectly legitimate reader's reaction, as a critical criterion it's inarguable, and therefore a complete dead end. And in its own way it's "pretentious," since it elevates one reader's subjective impression into the ultimate standard for judging a work. If someone else were to say, "They do feel like real people to me," what possible counter-argument can there be? "You don't feel what you say you feel"?

And I must say that I have little patience for "It's just a story," "You're overthinking it," "Can't you just like it for what it is?", etc. arguments. The "thinking vs. feeling" binary is itself a highly artificial construct, and thinking about stories and how they work, and then trying to put those thoughts into words, can in fact be a very high form of pleasure. If it weren't, I wouldn't be here.

PS: matsuri_wins, this series is a work of art, as is the crappiest piece of shit on this site. A lot of it's just not very good or interesting art.

Sorry for going all philosophical now, but this whole ""thinking vs feeling" binary is itself an artificial construct" kind of reminded me of some ancient Greek philosopher having said "I think, therefore, I am.".

PS: matsuri_wins, this series is a work of art, as is the crappiest piece of shit on this site. A lot of it's just not very good or interesting art.

LOL yes, but you know what I meant. Art put on a pedestal that doesn't deserve to be put there (again in my opinion).

The story feels pretentious and artificial to me, which is why I said it's my opinion several times. If you find it the next holy grail of yuri manga that's only your opinion also lol. In any case, the excessive use of symbolism especially in the anime OP is evidence of pretentiousness kind of independent of anyone's opinion.

Then for the love of... don't use phrases like "You are falling for the pretentiousness" if you know that this is merely your very subjective and unflattering opinion.

It just so happens that a lot of this manga is extremely relatable and real to many people. Many people have trouble understanding love, many people have self-worth issues or feel they need to act perfect, many people are afraid to tell their true feelings to the one they are interested in.

I may not necessarily be any of those above people, but I can empathize with that stuff. I think that one panel of Yuu pushing her face into her pillow and saying Whatever after being "rejected" is the most relatable thing I've read in any yuri manga in ages. That kind of frustration is too real.
The suspense during Yuu's confession chapter was absolutely strong. To say that this manga is just average at all times is ridiculous. There are dozens of standout moments that really convey emotion.

Symbolism isn't pretentious. That's usually an opinion of those who either don't understand it or feel like they are being looked down on because it is too obvious. You can't win with that. That's just a backwards attitude to have.
If there is no symbolism at all that doesn't make a story more "real" it just makes it flat. Layers help us think.

This. Plus the fact loving someone does not entitle that person to anything. Not a single one of them "deserves" something in this situation, that entire question is basically nonsensical. If Touko is not into Sayaka, and I am struggling to remember what would indicate otherwise, then that is that.

You're not wrong. But I framed it that way in part because my first response in this conversation was in regarding the idea that it would be distasteful for Touko to accept Sayaka's confession after rejecting Yuu. Obviously Sayaka isn't owed anything, but neither is Yuu. Should Touko accept Sayaka's confession it has nothing to do with Yuu.

Why “I want to be with Yuu” is not a potential, and indeed the most likely, answer to that question I do not understand.

I guess the short answer is that even if that is what she wants its not like things can go back to how they were; in a lot of ways they're going to have to start over. And yeah, she's changing, but Yuu's confession sort of implicitly asked her to change faster, in a way I really don't think she's capable of right now. So I'm not against that outcome, I just think racing towards it (especially in one or two chapters as people are suggesting) would feel contrived.

PS: matsuri_wins, this series is a work of art, as is the crappiest piece of shit on this site. A lot of it's just not very good or interesting art.

LOL yes, but you know what I meant. Art put on a pedestal that doesn't deserve to be put there (again in my opinion).

Sure, and I know a lot of people prefer to look through the way the story is told into an imagined world where they can get their feels, and attention to the craft of storytelling is just a distraction.

But for me, one of the great pleasures of genre fiction is not the content in itself (girl does or doesn't get girl, etc.) but the patterns and variations of how the stories get told, or even more importantly, the connection between my emotional responses and the storytelling techniques. If a particular scene really seemed powerful, what elements made it unusually so? If a series seemed to have all the elements I usually like but just fell flat, what made that happen?

In my (very extensive) experience, the "Art vs. art" thing rarely leads to anything but dead-end conversations.

Well you say this, but actually this entire thread is mostly people, including you, getting defensive whenever someone says anything remotely negative about the series even if they present their reasons or would like to find out why they feel a certain way about it.

Or whenever someone says they think the story would be better if Yuu and Touko don't end up together in some form, they get shut down by the "OTP Defense Squad" (you know who you are lol).

In threads for other series, criticizing (and even outright bashing) the story is much more accepted, and it seems that it's because those stories don't have a veneer of artistic pretentiousness around them.

Anyway, that's the last I will say on this topic till next chapter lol Don't get me wrong, I like Bloom Into You obviously, but I think it's ridic overrated at this point.

Like I said, I’m coming to fucking hate terms like “OTP” and “shipping” and all that other crap. I have been attempting, at any rate, to understand the plot and genre signals that the story has been sending and to follow the logic of the character development as it has been presented so far.

I called Sayaka “shipping catnip” for a reason—it was nearly inevitable that she would emerge as the counter-textual fantasy/wish fulfillment figure for those who find pleasure in such things.

I don’t really give a shit about Touko or Yuu or any of the other characters as imaginary human beings outside of the story itself in the sense of who ends up with who. If it were as well-told as this one, I would have been perfectly happy with a love-triangle story, or a Touko-finds-true-love-with-Sayaka story, or Yuu-throws-herself-in-front-of-a-fucking-train story (OK, probably not that last one).

But none of those are the story that is being told, as I understand it, and that is the main argument I have been attempting to make.

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 11:22AM

Sorry for going all philosophical now, but this whole ""thinking vs feeling" binary is itself an artificial construct" kind of reminded me of some ancient Greek philosopher having said "I think, therefore, I am.".

Oh Beevster, buddy, that wasn't from a Greek philosopher. That's a line from a certain Descartes, who was a frog-eating baguette man with a Weird Al wig, but certainly not ancient or Greek.

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 11:29AM

Sorry for going all philosophical now, but this whole ""thinking vs feeling" binary is itself an artificial construct" kind of reminded me of some ancient Greek philosopher having said "I think, therefore, I am.".

Oh Beevster, buddy, that wasn't from a Greek philosopher. That's a line froma certain Descartes, who was a frog-eating baguette man with a Weird Al wig, but certainly not ancient or Greek.

Dude's been dead for over three hundred years (and passed away somewhat prematurely at ~54 yo due to a bossy Swedish queen FWIW), I think that counts as "ancient" for a lot of people. :P
Decidedly not a Greek though.

Also sounds like someone's mixing up his famous formulation of methodological skepticism with his noteworthy investigations into the mind-body problem...

Christina of Sweden was definitely a top tbh

or Yuu-throws-herself-in-front-of-a-fucking-train story (OK, probably not that last one).

There should be a Bandersnatch episode of Bloom Into You where this is one of the available endings.

Like I said, I’m coming to fucking hate terms like “OTP” and “shipping” and all that other crap. I have been attempting, at any rate, to understand the plot and genre signals that the story has been sending and to follow the logic of the character development as it has been presented so far.

Maybe its not really "shipping" but I think the biggest thing for me is that you, Heavensrun, and others think there's actually a plot and I think its a slice of life. Obviously not in a "cute girls doing cute things" way, but definitely a story where the characters and their interactions drive the plot, and without a concrete structure to adhere to. In that sense even if its just an interlude Touko and Sayaka completely make sense to me, where you seem to think the story would completely be off the rails at that point.

I guess we'll see what happens going forward... but obviously I like my way better.

Shit... I mixed up... I should just stick to history and mapping, and stay aways from philosophy then... F...

How about: Yuu is adorable. Sayaka likes girls. Sayaka corners Yuu in the equipment shed. Hijinks ensue.

See, this is why I'm a terrible writer. Your version makes so much more sense.
Getting quite some use out of that equipment shed, aren't ya?

Heh... the equipment shed seems to run deep in the thoughts of everyone in the fanbase. For a place that (to my memory) was only shown twice, it sure is mentioned more often than expected among the readers and viewers.

It's more that the equipment shed is a common trope in teen romance stories, being a dark, quiet, out of the way place where makeouts can happen without the teachers being likely to find you.

Like I said, I’m coming to fucking hate terms like “OTP” and “shipping” and all that other crap. I have been attempting, at any rate, to understand the plot and genre signals that the story has been sending and to follow the logic of the character development as it has been presented so far.

Maybe its not really "shipping" but I think the biggest thing for me is that you, Heavensrun, and others think there's actually a plot and I think its a slice of life.

Wow. Well, then. No wonder we’re talking past one another. Have a nice life.

That's so stupid I need to stop your efforts right here lol I've been trolling (and I'd guess others also unless they are delusional readers) and you take it seriously to this level, amassing evidence to prove that some couple from a fictional story is meant to be. What do you want with this, to "enlighten the masses" or feel satisfaction that you won an argument that has a self-evident correct answer? WTF lol I appreciate your effort actually but you don't need to go to that extent, we already know.

I enjoy discussing and debating characters and story structure. It's something I do for fun because I like it.

In that context, you're like some idiot who ran into a basketball match, scored against yourself over and over, insisted he was winning, and then said "Why you even trying to play the game bro I don't even want to win!"

Okay, enjoy being an idiot.

C’mon guys—no calling names. We’re all just trying to have fun here, albeit sometimes in some bizarre and incomprehensible ways.