Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a shortage of eligible bachelors out there.

last edited at Sep 23, 2018 5:13AM

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because people.

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because people.

Yeah I guess. I just want to know why Hikari is with the manager, is it the cliché delusion of, he loves me, and he will dump his wife when the time is right. Or, is Hikari's feeling more complicated. (argh) This story line is going to be painful, to read. I hope Hikari realises her feelings for Moe, and kicks that jerk to the curb soon.

last edited at Sep 23, 2018 5:33AM

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

johnb posted:

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

You're not them.

johnb posted:

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

You're not them.

Maby its just he has a penis and close by. Lazyness effects everyone some times.

As much as I want to sympathise with Hikari, I just can't. She complains about her limitations of having an affair and I feel like she uses Moe as an emotional crutch, like get your shit together, please! On the flip side, give me more tsubasa!

Well, she says she "likes him". For some people, that's reason enough.

If we want to get full interpretation, Hikari's going out with a married man as some unconscious self-punishment, because she's afraid of her feeling toward Moe, as a desperate self-reaffirmation of her heterosexuality when she actually has doubts about it, but at the same time, since it's a "doomed" relationship that won't amount to anything (he keeps his wedding ring on, which she obviously interprets as him not going to divorce for her), it actually saves her from commitment with a "real" boyfriend, leaving her available should things evolve differently with Moe.

They are obviously both (not really) subtly trying to get out of the friend zone, but it's a tortuous, or even torturous, process.

They will get there. Eventually.

last edited at Sep 23, 2018 8:22AM

Ugh, chapter 14 was a waste of time for me, i'm so over those two.

Edit: Wait, wait, wait... what was the name of that series where a woman relies on her girlfriend to get her through pregnancy, then subsequently help raise the kid and there’s the neighborhood friend dude who’s helping out occasionally? Is that completed yet?

I think it's Ohana Ololo or something. Not sure about the status; its comments section should provide some info.

Almost! Ohana Holoholo

Edit: Wait, wait, wait... what was the name of that series where a woman relies on her girlfriend to get her through pregnancy, then subsequently help raise the kid and there’s the neighborhood friend dude who’s helping out occasionally? Is that completed yet?

I think it's Ohana Ololo or something. Not sure about the status; its comments section should provide some info.

Almost! Ohana Holoholo

I always remember it as Oklahoma （ー△ー；）

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Nya-chan posted:

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

johnb posted:

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

They're definitely not valid to me, but this is what we got. I don't care what the rationale is, but I don't think it's going to be explained either.

And I don't think the guy is more wrong than the girl or vice versa. Both know he's cheating and are complicit in it. (Someone suggested that the partner might be okay with it, but given how the girl -- whose name I do not remember -- worries about what she and the manager can and cannot do even in private, I doubt they have the wife's blessing.)

Didn't like this chapter. From a narrative perspective, the girl's introspection and the ring panel in the beginning were well done, but then the date sequence was just meh.

I look forward to the day there will be enough ongoing mature yuri series that I don't feel compelled to read -- or watch -- cheating-centric narratives.

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Nya-chan posted:

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

johnb posted:

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

They're definitely not valid to me, but this is what we got. I don't care what the rationale is, but I don't think it's going to be explained either.

And I don't think the guy is more wrong than the girl or vice versa. Both know he's cheating and are complicit in it. (Someone suggested that the partner might be okay with it, but given how the girl -- whose name I do not remember -- worries about what she and the manager can and cannot do even in private, I doubt they have the wife's blessing.)

Didn't like this chapter. From a narrative perspective, the girl's introspection and the ring panel in the beginning were well done, but then the date sequence was just meh.

I look forward to the day there will be enough ongoing mature yuri series that I don't feel compelled to read -- or watch -- cheating-centric narratives.

No, the guy is most certainly more wrong than girl in this case in that he is cheating on his wife and breaking his marriage vows. If Hikari was also cheating on and betraying her partner their sins would be of a similar caliber but she is not. Really the only thing she has done that is a tad bit shady is she is encouraging and enabling someone else to do immoral things.

last edited at Sep 23, 2018 7:59PM

Edit: Wait, wait, wait... what was the name of that series where a woman relies on her girlfriend to get her through pregnancy, then subsequently help raise the kid and there’s the neighborhood friend dude who’s helping out occasionally? Is that completed yet?

I think it's Ohana Ololo or something. Not sure about the status; its comments section should provide some info.

Almost! Ohana Holoholo

I always remember it as Oklahoma （ー△ー；）

I always remember it as "ohana means family and family means no one gets left behind (or forgotten)"

Today, I came to this thread expecting to see torches and pitchforks.
Because, really:
- "Two women going on a date just doesn't work. It's just hanging out as usual."
- "Going to a hotel and having sex with a girlfriend just wouldn't happen! That's just impossible!"
- "Our date today was so much fun, and yet... it was just normal. No thrill, no doki-doki, not like dating a guy..."
I expected everyone to be furious with Hikari for being Hikari and with Moe for putting up with Hikari. I expected rage. And yet... nothing. No angry mob, no calls for a lynching, nothing of the sort. Just a calm understanding of the girls' situation and their feelings, and reasonable hopes that their relationship will evolve.

(sniffle) Y'all... you are all so grown up. You make me proud.

No, the guy is most certainly more wrong than girl in this case in that he is cheating on his wife and breaking his marriage vows. If Hikari was also cheating on and betraying her partner their sins would be of a similar caliber but she is not. Really the only thing she has done that is a tad bit shady is she is encouraging and enabling someone else to do immoral things.

I must agree with you here. I think that there is an instinctive need to blame the “other woman” equally because people when they’re cheated on want to feel like it wasn’t just their partner that did this to them. Someone else “tempted them” or “made them”.

But no, it was just their partner’s responsibility to either not sleep with other people or break up with them first. Giving blame to Hikari in this case absolves the manager partially of his responsibility not to cheat.

Yes, there are better things Hikari could be doing with her time than seeing a married man, but she herself isn’t cheating and there is a huge difference between cheating and doing something really stupid.

last edited at Sep 23, 2018 8:44PM

johnb posted:

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

You're not them.

I'm not sure society would call those reasons valid.

No, the guy is most certainly more wrong than girl in this case in that he is cheating on his wife and breaking his marriage vows. If Hikari was also cheating on and betraying her partner their sins would be of a similar caliber but she is not. Really the only thing she has done that is a tad bit shady is she is encouraging and enabling someone else to do immoral things.

I must agree with you here. I think that there is an instinctive need to blame the “other woman” equally because people when they’re cheated on want to feel like it wasn’t just their partner that did this to them. Someone else “tempted them” or “made them”.

But no, it was just their partner’s responsibility to either not sleep with other people or break up with them first. Giving blame to Hikari in this case absolves the manager partially of his responsibility not to cheat.

Yes, there are better things Hikari could be doing with her time than seeing a married man, but she herself isn’t cheating and there is a huge difference between cheating and doing something really stupid.

Can't both of them be wrong? It takes two to cheat.* (unless you count masturbation as cheating lol.) So in terms of a crime, if the husband was guilty of adultery, wouldn't the other woman at least be an accomplice.
*That doesn't count, if the cheating spouse lied, and said they were single, obviously.

Edit: Wait, wait, wait... what was the name of that series where a woman relies on her girlfriend to get her through pregnancy, then subsequently help raise the kid and there’s the neighborhood friend dude who’s helping out occasionally? Is that completed yet?

I think it's Ohana Ololo or something. Not sure about the status; its comments section should provide some info.

Almost! Ohana Holoholo

I always remember it as Oklahoma （ー△ー；）

I always remember it as "ohana means family and family means no one gets left behind (or forgotten)"

Thank you all for your help jogging my brain! I’ll look it up! Oklahoma! No... Aloha aloha! Nope, not that one either... Ohana Holoholo! Now I got it! Thanks again!

Well, she says she "likes him". For some people, that's reason enough.

If we want to get full interpretation, Hikari's going out with a married man as some unconscious self-punishment, because she's afraid of her feeling toward Moe, as a desperate self-reaffirmation of her heterosexuality when she actually has doubts about it, but at the same time, since it's a "doomed" relationship that won't amount to anything (he keeps his wedding ring on, which she obviously interprets as him not going to divorce for her), it actually saves her from commitment with a "real" boyfriend, leaving her available should things evolve differently with Moe.

They are obviously both (not really) subtly trying to get out of the friend zone, but it's a tortuous, or even torturous, process.

They will get there. Eventually.

It's like Hikari is using the manager for sex and Moe for the romance. This can go on for a while.

No, the guy is most certainly more wrong than girl in this case in that he is cheating on his wife and breaking his marriage vows. If Hikari was also cheating on and betraying her partner their sins would be of a similar caliber but she is not. Really the only thing she has done that is a tad bit shady is she is encouraging and enabling someone else to do immoral things.

I must agree with you here. I think that there is an instinctive need to blame the “other woman” equally because people when they’re cheated on want to feel like it wasn’t just their partner that did this to them. Someone else “tempted them” or “made them”.

But no, it was just their partner’s responsibility to either not sleep with other people or break up with them first. Giving blame to Hikari in this case absolves the manager partially of his responsibility not to cheat.

Yes, there are better things Hikari could be doing with her time than seeing a married man, but she herself isn’t cheating and there is a huge difference between cheating and doing something really stupid.

Can't both of them be wrong? It takes two to cheat.* (unless you count masturbation as cheating lol.) So in terms of a crime, if the husband was guilty of adultery, wouldn't the other woman at least be an accomplice.
*That doesn't count, if the cheating spouse lied, and said they were single, obviously.

P much. If anything it's just degrees of guilt and that rather gets into splitting hairs. FWIW I'd argue the still unnamed* Manager is the bigger offender on account of his age, position and being the one actually married but that hardly absolves Hikari for her part.

*which is sorta funny when you think about it given a presumably-throwaway side character like playboy Ono gets more characterisation so far... wonder if that's an unsubtle comment on the depth of the relationship :P

last edited at Sep 24, 2018 4:08AM

johnb posted:

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

You're not them.

I'm not sure society would call those reasons valid.

The Almighty Society.

The same society that looks at homosexuality as deviant or immoral?

People invoking morality in order to condemn cheating creep me out.

You can condemn when someone is hurt, not when some highly subjective and abstract principle is bent.

These reasons could be valid for Hikari. It's enough for me. She doesn't need my approval. Nor yours.

Can't both of them be wrong? It takes two to cheat.* (unless you count masturbation as cheating lol.) So in terms of a crime, if the husband was guilty of adultery, wouldn't the other woman at least be an accomplice.
*That doesn't count, if the cheating spouse lied, and said they were single, obviously.

Of course they can both be wrong, but they’re definitely doing different things wrong.

You know how many women go after the woman their man cheated with instead of the man? A ton. They decide that what the other woman did was worse or the same than what the guy did, which isn’t true, but it makes them feel better to have a scapegoat. Saying that their misdeeds are equal is a bad line of thought that many societies like to use to say that women should gatekeep men’s cheating. “If you just hadn’t let me sleep with you...”

last edited at Sep 24, 2018 3:10PM

johnb posted:

johnb posted:

Why do women let themselves get tangled up with married men!? It's not like there is a damn shortage of single men.

Because some women like the thrill of it, or "taking a man from another woman" reinforces their self-confidence about being better than others.

Or because not all women seek commitment (or are already committed) and having a married man is a way to lessen the possibility of him sticking to her.

Or because he seduced her and she hopes he will leave his wife for her.

There's plenty of valid reasons. But someone is probably bound to be hurt.

I'm not sure I'd call any of those reasons valid.

You're not them.

I'm not sure society would call those reasons valid.

The Almighty Society.

The same society that looks at homosexuality as deviant or immoral?

People invoking morality in order to condemn cheating creep me out.

You can condemn when someone is hurt, not when some highly subjective and abstract principle is bent.

These reasons could be valid for Hikari. It's enough for me. She doesn't need my approval. Nor yours.

Woe there tex. No need to get all riled up. Cheating is wrong because someone gets hurt, plane and simple. Hurting someone should be against everyone's moral code. I think, what your thinking of is a polyamorous relationship. That's not cheating, because everybody involved should have agreed to ground rules, that have been set beforehand. I myself would never agree to a polyamorous relationship. Your right though, if everybody involved is okay with it, it's not my place to judge. Just remember, what a man does with a woman, another woman, and a goat, in the privacy of their own front lawn, is nobody's business, but their own.
It's possible that Hikari, the manager, and the manager's wife are involved in a polyamorous relationship, but I highly doubt it.

last edited at Sep 25, 2018 4:22AM