Nevri

Again, I'm not sure I understand sentence right, but if you mean that they wanted prevent Botan from ruining guys family, then you are sadly mistaken. They had no idea. They assumed Botan was abused by someone. They found out that she is meeting married guy, not knowing the one that hit Botan was the young one. So they just assumed he was at fault. Them busting his cheating was by total accident. I agree their motive, aka protecting their family, was right, but they rushed to action without enough information. I was actually very curios about how it would be solved and honestly I totally get why Botan would be so pissed at the moment that she would just leave. She sacrificed everything for them. Pushed herself when she "didn't want to cut corners on food when they were younger". All she ever asked for was that little moments of privacy that they suddenly invaded and tramped on, without even knowing the truth. I'd be pissed too. It probably could be solved by talking, but she just was too angry to bother.

That's what I get for trying to explain something after having taken a sleeping pill, lol. I'd actually meant more or less what you said and the thing about not destroying the guy's family was supposed to be a bit of a sidenote about how they'd be likely to disapprove of it. Sakura even attempted to stop Momiji from revealing it when she realized that they likely had the wrong guy, she just wasn't able to stop her in time. I do agree that they rushed into action without enough information though. I also think that Botan shouldn't blame them for things the way she did though either. While they poorly argued their actions to her it was clear that they simply did it out of love for her even if they only made things worse in the end.

I won't say that Botan was more justified for cheating because of her situation. They both were equally at fault. My point was just that a lot of people seems to not grasp why Botan would do that. I think both her cheating and leaving was totally understandable.

I can definitely understand why she would do it. That doesn't mean I approve of it at all though. Botan clearly values her family a lot even if she hates the position she ended up in so she should be someone who is definitely able to see how her doing these things could make someone else's family end up going the same way hers did. I understand it was just her way of doing something for herself for once but that doesn't justify doing something that could harm someone else's family still.

As for abandoning the family I still think that was awful of her. I can understand that she might want them to understand what she has been through (which is definitely a good thing because while Sakura and Kashiwa at least did want to help out they never pried too much into Botan's life, I'd assume at least partially because she always wanted to keep things private from them) but from my point of view it basically looks like she did exactly what her own father did. She just abandoned her family and disappeared. Granted the ending does seem to hint that she got back in contact with them unlike their father but that's still not cool of her. All of them (with maybe the exception of Momiji who was too young for it to affect all that much) do seem to have some form of abandonment issues as it is.

I feel like I was spun on a roundabout for half an hour after reading this. @_@

I pretty much hated ouzumi but him slipping up and saying hes worried about sakurako rather than her older sister made me happy. And him talking about their future also made me happy. But this whole thing was depressing. Even in the end when they received the call from who seemed to be botan-san was dissapointing. You dont just abandon family like that. Its painful and its not fixed with just one call. Honestly, i ended up really hating her because yeah she put up with a lot of shit but destroying a family and choosing a man over her sisters is so god damn stupid. It has a good story and it shows you how shitty things can get but i think this will be the first and last time reading it. Glad i did though.

wait, the end?!?
NO
NOOOOOOOOOO

Derpalot_ posted:

You dont just abandon family like that. Its painful and its not fixed with just one call. Honestly, i ended up really hating her because yeah she put up with a lot of shit but destroying a family and choosing a man over her sisters is so god damn stupid.

I'm not one to say you absolutely have to stick with family however shitty they are but she was definitely the one in the wrong here. Destroying another family then doing the exact same thing to her siblings that their own father did to them is extremely scummy. Especially when it's very clear that her siblings did in fact mean well.

........... I don't know what to say .....

last edited at Feb 24, 2016 11:03PM

Oh... My... Gosh... I absolutely hate uozumi! Why the heck would that girl get together with him in the end?! And the "trying to redeem him and make him not look so bad and it all was just a misunderstanding" was a kinda half-assed way to try to fix such a messed up and hated character!

Hazukish posted:

Well that was sort of an insterting read, now excuse me while I puke from what a horribly selfish and perverted character ms.man was. He should have just stayed away from his family, what a peice of human garbage.

So what exactly was wrong with Kashiwa?

Well that was sort of an insterting read, now excuse me while I puke from what a horribly selfish and perverted character ms.man was. He should have just stayed away from his family, what a peice of human garbage.

"ms. man", seriously dude? Is that where you wanna go with this?

botan doesn't deserve this hate. yeah, her family meant well but god if you continually have to give up your happiness for siblings that you didn't choose to take care of then i think she's justified in being angry with them when they destroy what little joy she had left. they didn't mean to but it doesn't change the fact that she isn't okay. i really empathize with her defeatist outlook and lack of motivation to continue. her fatigue with her situation is probably the most well-communicated thing in this manga.

hi These authors need to drink less Redbull . I thought that the line where the girl said (grabbing her hand violently; she can have pulled her hair next; or taken off her shirt inside the living room in front of the other individuals) "hes our brother!!" wa-s so dramatic . Seriously; they do sell Sprite; and Dr. Pepper; thats what they put on store shelves these days; and were probably able to believe that they have access to those stores before they lift up their pens to write; and before they put those pens in their hands between their fingers to write a comicbook .

It's just my opinion that the character in question deserves ridicule. I don't know what the author was going for, but he sure seemed like a bad guy to me, seems he only did harm. I guess my reaction might have stemmed from how the series portrayed him so unlikable yet we where supposed to accept him like that, sorry but I don't. It's either a fault with the series or just my opinion.

You don't like the character, I get that. The insistence on calling a trans character by male pronouns is baffling, and really isn't a good look on you. The "Ms. Man" nonsense earlier makes you look pretty bad too.

Nezchan posted:

You don't like the character, I get that. The insistence on calling a trans character by male pronouns is baffling, and really isn't a good look on you. The "Ms. Man" nonsense earlier makes you look pretty bad too.

Also doesn't really help matters when there's no explanation given for why they dislike her. Leaves the only possible focus on their post being the clear misgendering.

I was saving reading this for a while, for whatever reason, but gosh what a good read. About what I came in expecting from Kizuki Akira and Satou Nanki. I've never really been disappointed with they produce and I love how unpredictable and refreshingly realistic their story-telling is. Everybody has flaws and makes mistakes, but the story is in how they deal with those mistakes and learn & grow etc. Its good. Its what I want from a manga.

Just finished reading this and Botan is complete garbage, not because she got angry, not because she left but because she didn't come back. Everything could have been resolved but she was too selfish and drowning in resentment and bitterness for her sisters who she saw as having it better than her, she was a petty human being looking for a way out in the end.
I can understand her being angry at Kashiwa since he more than earned her anger with his holier than though attitude but Sakura and Momiji were worried about her being abused and didn't deserve to be abandoned again, any adult parental figure who abandons their child is absolute scum.
You saw the trauma with Momiji when she was worried that Sakura would leave her, she had seen parental after parental figure drop out of her life one by one since she was just a child and having to put her faith once again in another parental figure only a few years older than herself would make her entire life completely unstable.
Botan knew this and she didn't care, she cared more for a relationship that would inevitably have ended with her being a homewrecker or her being abandoned.

I reread this today. I once really liked this story because it features a strong trans female character whom I can identify with at times being a trans woman myself. However, rereading it makes me reconsider that regard for the series. While arguably not at fault because the one violating his relationship was the boss whom had the affair with her, it's still really bad optics and she was really just living an emotionally-distant lie in public. Not to mention the second she's outed she disappears because unless she's personally involved, she doesn't give a fuck.

Kashiwa, I can really empathize with. However her relationship with Kasumi isn't healthy. Kasumi basically sees her as guy she can dress up as a sex doll half the time. Even after everything, she still treats everything about Kashiwa like she's just like any guy. However I can understand the difference between disappearing to be yourself and disappearing like Botan did. In the end, she stepped up to support her younger sisters.

Sakura is way too tsun and lets everyone walk over her half of the time and the other half she's acting weirdly. At least she becomes more reliable at the end. However I hate how that reliability seems to coincide with that het relationship of hers.

Momiji is the best character by far. She's smart, caring, and has a level head. Honestly I don't like the whole triangle they set her up with the "moe piglet" and her best friend. He's ignorant but he tries. Her best friend is much better. We can hope with her love of gay that she ends up in a yuri relationship herself.

Anyway, based on these characters, I've created a chart:

A really nice read, but very bittersweet, especially towards the end. A lot of this manga speaks directly to me, although I'm glad certain parts do not.

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

schuyguy posted:

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

I was arguing about exactly same thing just 1 page before. In general I disagree with a lot of what gwennie-chan said, but it would take too much time to write it all down properly.

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

Maybe she perceived what they did as a betrayal, but it's not nearly as simple as that. She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem. Which is clearly foolish, as Murphy's law applies. She wasn't exactly subtle about how she was hiding something, so of course her family would be worried about it and want to pursue the matter, and of course they were going to assume the worst once they got a clue. Not speaking to any of them about it was an incredibly poor decision, and guilt-tripping them afterwards was uncalled for. Her sisters may have made bad choices in the heat of the moment and regretted them later, but if Botan thinks she played her cards exactly right she is sorely mistaken.

Not speaking to any of them about it was an incredibly poor decision, and guilt-tripping them afterwards was uncalled for. Her sisters may have made bad choices in the heat of the moment and regretted them later, but if Botan thinks she played her cards exactly right she is sorely mistaken.

The way they confronted her was guaranteed to cause massive problems for her. That was the betrayal. They could have dealt with it some other way, but instead they went with the most awful and invasive way to address it. She clearly made mistakes, but what they did to her caused irrevocable damage. She decided that she didn't want people who would do that to her in her life any longer, and so she left. I think that is an understandable decision.

Parnifia the Bastard posted:

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Which she did until stubborn guy hit her by mistake and siblings assumed something was wrong and they assumed that she is in abusive relationship and then without talking they found different guy and assumed it was the guy who hit her and abused him without any proof. Yea, clearly it was her fault. And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

She wasn't exactly subtle about how she was hiding something, so of course her family would be worried about it and want to pursue the matter, and of course they were going to assume the worst once they got a clue.

And that somehow justify them basically assuming everything, misunderstanding situation, taking action without talking to Botan at all and actually hurting her in the process?

Not speaking to any of them about it was an incredibly poor decision, and guilt-tripping them afterwards was uncalled for.

Not speaking to them about something that they didn't need to know, weren't affect by and so far lived perfectly fine without knowing was indeed a incredibly poor decision.

Her sisters may have made bad choices in the heat of the moment and regretted them later, but if Botan thinks she played her cards exactly right she is sorely mistaken.

By "bad choices in the heat of the moment", you mean how they spend a lot of time talking about it between themselves, strategizing what to do, stalking Botan to find the guy that hurt her (and failed) and then abusing him without any proof he was the guy or really anything and making a scene that in the only hurt Botan instead of helping her? You mean that exact moment? Yea, Botan totally failed to deliver her cards here to prevent her siblings acting on their own and ruining everything, which somehow is justified when they do it, because they are family and care about her, even if in the end their actions leave her deeply hurt.

last edited at Apr 4, 2018 11:31PM

Nevri posted:

She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Which she did until stubborn guy hit her by mistake and siblings assumed something was wrong and they assumed that she is in abusive relationship and then without talking they found different guy and assumed it was the guy who hit her and abused him without any proof. Yea, clearly it was her fault. And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

You haven't know many women in abusive relationships, have you? It's exceedingly common for them to try and hide things. Her siblings' reactions in that regard was perfectly logical. As was them assuming the guy she was with was the same one who hit her. After all it's completely freaking normal to think that people aren't in relationships with multiple people at once.

And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

Alice Cheshire posted:

Nevri posted:

She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Which she did until stubborn guy hit her by mistake and siblings assumed something was wrong and they assumed that she is in abusive relationship and then without talking they found different guy and assumed it was the guy who hit her and abused him without any proof. Yea, clearly it was her fault. And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

You haven't know many women in abusive relationships, have you? It's exceedingly common for them to try and hide things. Her siblings' reactions in that regard was perfectly logical. As was them assuming the guy she was with was the same one who hit her. After all it's completely freaking normal to think that people aren't in relationships with multiple people at once.

And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

Yea, she tried to keep something private that was not hurting them in any way. How dare she have secrets from her family! And the most likely reason she didn't tell them then and tried to still keep it secret (she actually even said to Kashiwa, she might talk to her about it someday) was because it was about having casual sex with a guy that got serious so she had to cut it short. I imagine not the easiest topic to tell your younger siblings about. Also she probably worried that she would need to explain why she doesn't want to have serious relationship. Let's not even talk about her possibly admitting to sleeping with married man. She would never hear the end of it. They would constantly tell her to break it off for her sake.

last edited at Apr 5, 2018 12:00AM

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

If someone with the very best of intentions, who cares about you very much, acts in what they believe to be your best interest and ruins your life, what do you do? Her leaving was a justifiable response.