I recently did go ask my brother about this very subject , because it bothered me to a curious degree and that I must find out how his thought process worked during this time in his life . I was very surprised and utterly dumbfounded when the answer was so simple that I almost felt like an ass for bringing it up . My brothers words were " I just saw women as something beautiful and I wanted to have what they have. " Well sitting speechless for a bit I did happen to think WTF with sirens going off in my head . So his reasons were materialistic as he just wanted to obtain what he didn't have , I still don't know if I should think this a joke of a statement of take it at face value , but whatever the real reason I guess my curious mind let him off with that one . I also asked my brother about why he dressed so overly nice to a point of being flamboyant , and well the answer was more than simple in fact it goes with his original statement but with a branch so to speak in which he said " the only way I could come close to being as beautiful as a woman was to dress as beautiful as a woman would without going into woman's clothing." So I do need to ask are guys this simple ? Do guys really go with the simple answer, or is it covering for the underlying answer ? I have asked my girlfriend about this , and even she couldn't answer this lol . I may never know the real answers as I am the older one , but I do find this intriguing in the sense of wanting to try and understand the opposite sex just a bit more , but then again understanding my own sex is even more baffling lol .

Sometimes it actually is that simple, and he's a crossdresser. Sometimes it's far more complicated, involving denial and repressing one's self. Or a great number of options between the two like dissatisfaction with the "male" role in society and finding a different balance. You'll probably never know, and hell even your brother might never know the full truth of it. It's certainly nothing that could be easily answered, especially online by people who don't know him well. The best practical course is simply to take him at his word, of course. Nobody but your brother knows what it's like to feel what he's feeling.

The upshot is that identity and gender is tremendously difficult to fully grasp, and what appears to be a simple answer might be both simple and complex at the same time.

I missed when the last volume came out, and I'm not sure how I felt about the final arc with Botan, but I did like how it all wrapped up. But I do agree that a lot of it stems from people not being true about their own feelings, which causes all of these complications in the first place. The one person trying to live their truth disrupting everything just makes sense.

Oh, I forgot that they wrote Ebisu-san and Hotei-san... so it really does fit in with their sense of truth and family.

last edited at Mar 5, 2015 2:41PM

Blue Saint

A lot to talk about with this story. First I want to talk about Botan. I don't fault for having the affair. You can tell she gave up so much to shoulder the responsibility forced onto her and she accepted it all. Her liaisons was the one that was only about her, she didn't have to worry about her family or the future. She made it clear none of the sex was meant to lead to anything more, it was about her having a release and probably some control over her life. She made it clear she had no intentions of having a relationship with anyone, let alone of trying to break-up the guy's marriage.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you wrote about Botan's situation but there's one major difference between Botan's situation and that of any of the others. As shown in the story her situation could harm the family's of other people and it could easily be completely out of her control for that to happen. Now granted the person who is actually cheating on their wife with her is completely in the wrong too (I'd say more in the wrong but seeing as she clearly knew the guy was cheating on his wife with her I'd say it's completely even responsibility.) she's knowingly doing this. Even if she did make those things clear to the other party she was still in the wrong. It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship. (Well cultural values notwithstanding. I suppose in Japan it probably is somewhat more difficult but the point is it's still not impossible.)

It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship. (Well cultural values notwithstanding. I suppose in Japan it probably is somewhat more difficult but the point is it's still not impossible.)

I try really hard, but I'm not sure what you meant in that sentence ;/

Imo Botan decision is totally understandable. She was forced to become a mom and working adult in order to support entire family all by herself, while still being pretty young. I don't remember all the details since I read it long ago, but father was gone since she was a child I think. She gave up going to university which she didn't want, but had to. I can see why not only she wouldn't want to date anyone seriously, but actually wanted to be spoiled. Sure, she could just date single guys if all she wanted was sex, but married guys are better for 2 reasons. 1. They are still less likely to get serious about her. After all not everyone immediately goes and break their marriage and some just like the trill of cheating (not that I approve of it, but that is the fact). 2. She actually wants a father figure, that will spoil her, as we can clearly see here (the first quote is pretty good too, hinting that you never know when things you take for the granted suddenly ends).

This sums Botan's stance pretty well

last edited at Oct 17, 2015 6:21AM

Nevri

I try really hard, but I'm not sure what you meant in that sentence ;/

If you mean the "It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship." part then it's just talking about open relationships and such. The part in parentheses is talking about how that sort of relationship may be more difficult to find in a place such as Japan which has different cultural values.

Imo Botan decision is totally understandable. She was forced to become a mom and working adult in order to support entire family all by herself, while still being pretty young. I don't remember all the details since I read it long ago, but father was gone since she was a child I think. She gave up going to university which she didn't want, but had to.

Her mother died when she was 15 and her dad left when she was 18 if I recall correctly. I just reread it earlier but I wasn't paying attention to the ages so I may be a bit off there.

I can see why not only she wouldn't want to date anyone seriously, but actually wanted to be spoiled. Sure, she could just date single guys if all she wanted was sex, but married guys are better for 2 reasons. 1. They are still less likely to get serious about her. After all not everyone immediately goes and break their marriage and some just like the trill of cheating (not that I approve of it, but that is the fact). 2. She actually wants a father figure, that will spoil her, as we can clearly see here (the first quote is pretty good too, hinting that you never know when things you take for the granted suddenly ends).

This sums Botan's stance pretty well

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why she would see it as the most appealing choice. I still completely disagree with it though. While an argument could be made that the person is going to cheat anyways even if it's not with her that doesn't really excuse that she's disregarding that person's family all while claiming to care for her own. And while I can understand why that might be kinda the last straw for her the way things turned out she was still rather out of line in leaving like that in my opinion, at least as permanently as it seems she did since a year later she hadn't even contacted them. She basically went and did exactly what their father did.

The thing is that while her siblings definitely did a piss poor job of explaining things it's pretty clear that they just didn't want her to harm other families but didn't want to make her out to be the bad guy either when she kinda was. Cheating can tear a family apart. And while arguments can be made that the person getting cheated on should have had at least some idea that something was wrong with the relationship (not always the case however because some people just cheat regardless of whether their relationship with their spouse is good or not) there is no argument to be made for the kid having to be pout through that. If it weren't for the fact the guy had a kid I wouldn't have had nearly so much of a problem with it honestly. I'd still think both Botan and the guy were pretty awful for knowingly doing it because the guy should just break up with his wife if it's that bad but I wouldn't consider Botan to be so much the bad guy. Regardless of her intent her fling with the guy drug an innocent kid into the mix.

Alice Cheshire

If you mean the "It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship." part then it's just talking about open relationships and such. The part in parentheses is talking about how that sort of relationship may be more difficult to find in a place such as Japan which has different cultural values.

Thanks. Yea, Since I couldn't understand the first sentence I wasn't sure how to interpret the parentheses part as well, that is why I quoted both.

Her mother died when she was 15 and her dad left when she was 18 if I recall correctly. I just reread it earlier but I wasn't paying attention to the ages so I may be a bit off there.

Yea, I don't think I payed that much attention to ages too and I wouldn't even remember where to look for them. I think they never really focused too much on them when explaining their situation.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why she would see it as the most appealing choice. I still completely disagree with it though. While an argument could be made that the person is going to cheat anyways even if it's not with her that doesn't really excuse that she's disregarding that person's family all while claiming to care for her own. And while I can understand why that might be kinda the last straw for her the way things turned out she was still rather out of line in leaving like that in my opinion, at least as permanently as it seems she did since a year later she hadn't even contacted them. She basically went and did exactly what their father did.

I forgot to mention. I know that what she did (cheating) was totally selfish, but that was kinda the point imo. She wanted to be selfish for once. I guess that was her way of reveling stress. Honestly I think she just didn't know how to handle her new life, so she had to find something. About her leaving, I didn't really think much about that part, but again, I guess she just was fed up with all of this and the moment her "little happiness" was destroyed, she just didn't care anymore. Also to her defend, until Kashiwa returned and started to work part time for her transition, she was fully lived supported by Botan, She was the one covering Kashiwa's expense on university etc. Botan was probably too kind to complain about it, but she wished that Kashiwa as the second oldest would help her more. That is why she left them. She put Kashiwa in exact same situation she was put once, so Kashiwa can taste it for herself, I really think Botan was fed up and pissed enough to do it. Especially after Kashiwa announced that she planned to abandon them without a word. Again. I don't say what Botan did was right or wrong, but I can at least understand her.

Also I think she did care about them in "their are my siblings" way, but I guess she did it more from obligation that actual love for them. Once she finally found a way (and courage/motivation) to just leave them and finally be free, she did that. She cared for them enough to take care of them, but not enough to keep on enduring that kind of lifestyle and forgiving them messing her private life.

The thing is that while her siblings definitely did a piss poor job of explaining things it's pretty clear that they just didn't want her to harm other families but didn't want to make her out to be the bad guy either when she kinda was.

Again, I'm not sure I understand sentence right, but if you mean that they wanted prevent Botan from ruining guys family, then you are sadly mistaken. They had no idea. They assumed Botan was abused by someone. They found out that she is meeting married guy, not knowing the one that hit Botan was the young one. So they just assumed he was at fault. Them busting his cheating was by total accident. I agree their motive, aka protecting their family, was right, but they rushed to action without enough information. I was actually very curios about how it would be solved and honestly I totally get why Botan would be so pissed at the moment that she would just leave. She sacrificed everything for them. Pushed herself when she "didn't want to cut corners on food when they were younger". All she ever asked for was that little moments of privacy that they suddenly invaded and tramped on, without even knowing the truth. I'd be pissed too. It probably could be solved by talking, but she just was too angry to bother.

If it weren't for the fact the guy had a kid I wouldn't have had nearly so much of a problem with it honestly. I'd still think both Botan and the guy were pretty awful for knowingly doing it because the guy should just break up with his wife if it's that bad but I wouldn't consider Botan to be so much the bad guy. Regardless of her intent her fling with the guy drug an innocent kid into the mix.

I won't say that Botan was more justified for cheating because of her situation. They both were equally at fault. My point was just that a lot of people seems to not grasp why Botan would do that. I think both her cheating and leaving was totally understandable.

last edited at Oct 17, 2015 7:25AM

Nevri

Again, I'm not sure I understand sentence right, but if you mean that they wanted prevent Botan from ruining guys family, then you are sadly mistaken. They had no idea. They assumed Botan was abused by someone. They found out that she is meeting married guy, not knowing the one that hit Botan was the young one. So they just assumed he was at fault. Them busting his cheating was by total accident. I agree their motive, aka protecting their family, was right, but they rushed to action without enough information. I was actually very curios about how it would be solved and honestly I totally get why Botan would be so pissed at the moment that she would just leave. She sacrificed everything for them. Pushed herself when she "didn't want to cut corners on food when they were younger". All she ever asked for was that little moments of privacy that they suddenly invaded and tramped on, without even knowing the truth. I'd be pissed too. It probably could be solved by talking, but she just was too angry to bother.

That's what I get for trying to explain something after having taken a sleeping pill, lol. I'd actually meant more or less what you said and the thing about not destroying the guy's family was supposed to be a bit of a sidenote about how they'd be likely to disapprove of it. Sakura even attempted to stop Momiji from revealing it when she realized that they likely had the wrong guy, she just wasn't able to stop her in time. I do agree that they rushed into action without enough information though. I also think that Botan shouldn't blame them for things the way she did though either. While they poorly argued their actions to her it was clear that they simply did it out of love for her even if they only made things worse in the end.

I won't say that Botan was more justified for cheating because of her situation. They both were equally at fault. My point was just that a lot of people seems to not grasp why Botan would do that. I think both her cheating and leaving was totally understandable.

I can definitely understand why she would do it. That doesn't mean I approve of it at all though. Botan clearly values her family a lot even if she hates the position she ended up in so she should be someone who is definitely able to see how her doing these things could make someone else's family end up going the same way hers did. I understand it was just her way of doing something for herself for once but that doesn't justify doing something that could harm someone else's family still.

As for abandoning the family I still think that was awful of her. I can understand that she might want them to understand what she has been through (which is definitely a good thing because while Sakura and Kashiwa at least did want to help out they never pried too much into Botan's life, I'd assume at least partially because she always wanted to keep things private from them) but from my point of view it basically looks like she did exactly what her own father did. She just abandoned her family and disappeared. Granted the ending does seem to hint that she got back in contact with them unlike their father but that's still not cool of her. All of them (with maybe the exception of Momiji who was too young for it to affect all that much) do seem to have some form of abandonment issues as it is.

I feel like I was spun on a roundabout for half an hour after reading this. @_@

I pretty much hated ouzumi but him slipping up and saying hes worried about sakurako rather than her older sister made me happy. And him talking about their future also made me happy. But this whole thing was depressing. Even in the end when they received the call from who seemed to be botan-san was dissapointing. You dont just abandon family like that. Its painful and its not fixed with just one call. Honestly, i ended up really hating her because yeah she put up with a lot of shit but destroying a family and choosing a man over her sisters is so god damn stupid. It has a good story and it shows you how shitty things can get but i think this will be the first and last time reading it. Glad i did though.

wait, the end?!?
NO
NOOOOOOOOOO

Derpalot_ posted:

You dont just abandon family like that. Its painful and its not fixed with just one call. Honestly, i ended up really hating her because yeah she put up with a lot of shit but destroying a family and choosing a man over her sisters is so god damn stupid.

I'm not one to say you absolutely have to stick with family however shitty they are but she was definitely the one in the wrong here. Destroying another family then doing the exact same thing to her siblings that their own father did to them is extremely scummy. Especially when it's very clear that her siblings did in fact mean well.

........... I don't know what to say .....

last edited at Feb 24, 2016 11:03PM

Oh... My... Gosh... I absolutely hate uozumi! Why the heck would that girl get together with him in the end?! And the "trying to redeem him and make him not look so bad and it all was just a misunderstanding" was a kinda half-assed way to try to fix such a messed up and hated character!

Hazukish posted:

Well that was sort of an insterting read, now excuse me while I puke from what a horribly selfish and perverted character ms.man was. He should have just stayed away from his family, what a peice of human garbage.

So what exactly was wrong with Kashiwa?

Well that was sort of an insterting read, now excuse me while I puke from what a horribly selfish and perverted character ms.man was. He should have just stayed away from his family, what a peice of human garbage.

"ms. man", seriously dude? Is that where you wanna go with this?

botan doesn't deserve this hate. yeah, her family meant well but god if you continually have to give up your happiness for siblings that you didn't choose to take care of then i think she's justified in being angry with them when they destroy what little joy she had left. they didn't mean to but it doesn't change the fact that she isn't okay. i really empathize with her defeatist outlook and lack of motivation to continue. her fatigue with her situation is probably the most well-communicated thing in this manga.

hi These authors need to drink less Redbull . I thought that the line where the girl said (grabbing her hand violently; she can have pulled her hair next; or taken off her shirt inside the living room in front of the other individuals) "hes our brother!!" wa-s so dramatic . Seriously; they do sell Sprite; and Dr. Pepper; thats what they put on store shelves these days; and were probably able to believe that they have access to those stores before they lift up their pens to write; and before they put those pens in their hands between their fingers to write a comicbook .

It's just my opinion that the character in question deserves ridicule. I don't know what the author was going for, but he sure seemed like a bad guy to me, seems he only did harm. I guess my reaction might have stemmed from how the series portrayed him so unlikable yet we where supposed to accept him like that, sorry but I don't. It's either a fault with the series or just my opinion.

You don't like the character, I get that. The insistence on calling a trans character by male pronouns is baffling, and really isn't a good look on you. The "Ms. Man" nonsense earlier makes you look pretty bad too.

Nezchan posted:

You don't like the character, I get that. The insistence on calling a trans character by male pronouns is baffling, and really isn't a good look on you. The "Ms. Man" nonsense earlier makes you look pretty bad too.

Also doesn't really help matters when there's no explanation given for why they dislike her. Leaves the only possible focus on their post being the clear misgendering.

I was saving reading this for a while, for whatever reason, but gosh what a good read. About what I came in expecting from Kizuki Akira and Satou Nanki. I've never really been disappointed with they produce and I love how unpredictable and refreshingly realistic their story-telling is. Everybody has flaws and makes mistakes, but the story is in how they deal with those mistakes and learn & grow etc. Its good. Its what I want from a manga.

Just finished reading this and Botan is complete garbage, not because she got angry, not because she left but because she didn't come back. Everything could have been resolved but she was too selfish and drowning in resentment and bitterness for her sisters who she saw as having it better than her, she was a petty human being looking for a way out in the end.
I can understand her being angry at Kashiwa since he more than earned her anger with his holier than though attitude but Sakura and Momiji were worried about her being abused and didn't deserve to be abandoned again, any adult parental figure who abandons their child is absolute scum.
You saw the trauma with Momiji when she was worried that Sakura would leave her, she had seen parental after parental figure drop out of her life one by one since she was just a child and having to put her faith once again in another parental figure only a few years older than herself would make her entire life completely unstable.
Botan knew this and she didn't care, she cared more for a relationship that would inevitably have ended with her being a homewrecker or her being abandoned.

I reread this today. I once really liked this story because it features a strong trans female character whom I can identify with at times being a trans woman myself. However, rereading it makes me reconsider that regard for the series. While arguably not at fault because the one violating his relationship was the boss whom had the affair with her, it's still really bad optics and she was really just living an emotionally-distant lie in public. Not to mention the second she's outed she disappears because unless she's personally involved, she doesn't give a fuck.

Kashiwa, I can really empathize with. However her relationship with Kasumi isn't healthy. Kasumi basically sees her as guy she can dress up as a sex doll half the time. Even after everything, she still treats everything about Kashiwa like she's just like any guy. However I can understand the difference between disappearing to be yourself and disappearing like Botan did. In the end, she stepped up to support her younger sisters.

Sakura is way too tsun and lets everyone walk over her half of the time and the other half she's acting weirdly. At least she becomes more reliable at the end. However I hate how that reliability seems to coincide with that het relationship of hers.

Momiji is the best character by far. She's smart, caring, and has a level head. Honestly I don't like the whole triangle they set her up with the "moe piglet" and her best friend. He's ignorant but he tries. Her best friend is much better. We can hope with her love of gay that she ends up in a yuri relationship herself.

Anyway, based on these characters, I've created a chart:

A really nice read, but very bittersweet, especially towards the end. A lot of this manga speaks directly to me, although I'm glad certain parts do not.

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

schuyguy posted:

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

I was arguing about exactly same thing just 1 page before. In general I disagree with a lot of what gwennie-chan said, but it would take too much time to write it all down properly.