I have a question. Why do so many people like the top-bottom kind of thing in yuri? It makes no sense to me. I was looking at some images on the site this morning, and i kept seeing comments like "Well, guess we know who the top is" or "When your bottom does not know its place". I find this weird as hell. Is it not far better for the girls to both give and receive? Why should one dominate and the other be a sub? I get it if the girl only likes receiving and stuff like that, but 90% of the "top-bottom" yuri is about enforcing these roles. "Hehe, you thought you could take the lead, even though you are a natural sub" or "Leave this to me, you are a bottom". These are the types of "quotes" i see in so many one-shots. Why is it that the other is not allowed to give, and why is it that so many stories have only one giving? I am confused about this top-bottom craze. Can someone enlighten me on why this exists?

Genre-wise, it's mainly a layover from yaoi with the general conception that, since they're both the same sex, one of them apparently has to play "male" and "female" roles, outdated as it is. As far as yuri is concerned, it's more used in terms of character dynamics (eg. the sporty tomboy would be considered the top while the ditzy shy librarian would be considered the bottom). While many people such as yourself probably frown upon that kind of thing, it does create some interesting dynamics. One being role reversal, where the girl who usually bottoms gets on top, and another being playing with your expectations (praise be the Oneeloli subgenre). Of course, you do get some series or doujins where there's no clear top or bottom and it's just two (or more) girls mutually making each other feel good, and those tend to be pretty swell.

Personal preference and what sells. Also, those quotes sound like they're from cartoon villains, like you've been looking at too much generic hentai or something.

Read Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter or something that pokes fun at those "roles."

(What goggled said too)

last edited at Feb 21, 2018 7:52AM by

I remember the fujoshi sister in Hanjuku Joshi mentioning how the top and bottom roles in yaoi are pretty standard, but that yuri is more flexible. The genre does have the "prince" and "princess" mold that carries it on, but it's less rigid and there are stories that just avoid it altogether. There's also something similar with age, where the older of a couple is expected to be the one to do things for the younger.

That said, in real life there are people who prefer to be on the top or bottom on a regular basis. The butch-femme division has been a standard of lesbian communities for a very long time, although that again isn't as rigid as it used to be. There's at least one story here on Dynasty that addresses the expectations put on a butch woman to be the top in her relationships. So it's not just yuri following yaoi and shoujo genre conventions, but the influence of actual lesbians as well (for those authors who are at least familiar with said communities).

And then of course there are the authors who don't know a damn thing about lesbians and just assume their relationships work exactly the same as het.

It's relatively rare in yuri and it is probably right to think it's usually due to the influence of BL on shipping. Almost all BL is made with a seme x uke dynamic being something the creator at least has in mind.

However, if yuri were more commonly made by people who are involved in Japanese lesbian dating (like bars, clubs, dating sites, etc.) and were trying to depict that experience realistically, then that would mean more works where the characters themselves deal with the issue of their "sexuality" on the tachi-neko spectrum. Occasionally there are nods to that stuff, but there's little yuri that actually deals with it as though the author has experience with it.

Personal preference and what sells. Also, those quotes sound like they're from cartoon villains, like you've been looking at too much generic hentai or something.

Read Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter or something that pokes fun at those "roles."

(What goggled said too)

These quotes are from "Mira", "Natsuneko" and many other creators. Though they might not be 100% exactly as they were written. It was just from what i remembered. I also gave the examples that were most "harsh" to further my argument. Some are more "mild" but have the same message behind them. Like:
Girl 1: "I don't feel like i'll be winning no matter how long i live."
Girl 2: "Wait, you thought you could win?"

This was from the series "Out of the blue!"

The thing about generic hentai was uncalled for, as I have 100% read far more yuri than you have.

The thing about generic hentai was uncalled for, as I have 100% read far more yuri than you have.

Oh no, my pride.

This has occurred to me as well, but I've come to take it with a grain of salt as the whole "top and bottom" thing is often just superficial and doesn't really describe the characters' relationship. Although, when it seems like the "top" is pressuring the "bottom" into sex when they're not fully okay with it, I get uncomfortable. As I understand, that's also a yaoi thing.

I don't. One of reasons I like yuri to begin with is that there are no set roles in bed.

last edited at Feb 21, 2018 10:40AM

I don't. One of reasons I like yuri to begin with is that there are no set roles in bed.

Yaas

Some are more "mild" but have the same message behind them. Like:
Girl 1: "I don't feel like i'll be winning no matter how long i live."
Girl 2: "Wait, you thought you could win?"

This was from the series "Out of the blue!"

This is just a random couple teasing each other. One girl happens to be easily embarrassed while the other is a bit bold. This isn't uncommon in reality or romance as a whole, so how is this "top-bottom" yuri?

OrangePekoe posted:

Some are more "mild" but have the same message behind them. Like:
Girl 1: "I don't feel like i'll be winning no matter how long i live."
Girl 2: "Wait, you thought you could win?"

This was from the series "Out of the blue!"

This is just a random couple teasing each other. One girl happens to be easily embarrassed while the other is a bit bold. This isn't uncommon in reality or romance as a whole, so how is this "top-bottom" yuri?

Yea. Couldn't find it, but there was no sex scene in Out of the blue, so I was confused about this one as well.

Some are more "mild" but have the same message behind them. Like:
Girl 1: "I don't feel like i'll be winning no matter how long i live."
Girl 2: "Wait, you thought you could win?"

This was from the series "Out of the blue!"

This is just a random couple teasing each other. One girl happens to be easily embarrassed while the other is a bit bold. This isn't uncommon in reality or romance as a whole, so how is this "top-bottom" yuri?

Don't worry, they've read more yuri than you.

I think it's also worth looking at the simple storytelling concept of contrasting characters. Tall vs short, light vs dark, passive vs active. In short one-shots especially you don't have a lot of room to establish character differences, so in porny stuff it's a pretty obvious choice to make them different in bed.

Plus, if you're too wrapped up in "both of them get to do it" you often either get the "all lesbians do tribbing and it's incredibly intense" silliness or an awkward position to have both of them visibly getting off at the same time, or else the partners each going down a checklist of things to do to each other. Some artists pull it off really well (Sekihara's Hanayo x Maki doujin comes immediately to mind), but for a lot of them it's just awkward so the comparatively easier "one tops and the other bottoms" is a safer approach.

I was going to give my opinion but I'm afraid the amount of yuri I've read doesn't qualify for this level of topic

Some are more "mild" but have the same message behind them. Like:
Girl 1: "I don't feel like i'll be winning no matter how long i live."
Girl 2: "Wait, you thought you could win?"

This was from the series "Out of the blue!"

This is just a random couple teasing each other. One girl happens to be easily embarrassed while the other is a bit bold. This isn't uncommon in reality or romance as a whole, so how is this "top-bottom" yuri?

If you read the manga you would know. She says that she doesn't always want Girl 2 to take the pace, and that she wants to be the one making a move. Clearly top-bottom. But that was an example that was supposed to be more ambiguous, as i had been cherry-picking the other two

I think it's also worth looking at the simple storytelling concept of contrasting characters. Tall vs short, light vs dark, passive vs active. In short one-shots especially you don't have a lot of room to establish character differences, so in porny stuff it's a pretty obvious choice to make them different in bed.

Plus, if you're too wrapped up in "both of them get to do it" you often either get the "all lesbians do tribbing and it's incredibly intense" silliness or an awkward position to have both of them visibly getting off at the same time, or else the partners each going down a checklist of things to do to each other. Some artists pull it off really well (Sekihara's Hanayo x Maki doujin comes immediately to mind), but for a lot of them it's just awkward so the comparatively easier "one tops and the other bottoms" is a safer approach.

I'm not saying they have to do it at the same time, though 69 is an option wink. I was just saying that they both should do it. As in one takes the lead and then they switch. In many NSFW one-shots, there are 2-3 sex scenes. So there is plenty of "space" to change it up. I was just confused over the idolization of the top-bottom seme-uke thing. Seems that others have the same opinion though. I couldn't know, as I have never read a comment saying "I wish they switched it up" and only "She is the top bla bla bottom bla bla".

last edited at Feb 21, 2018 12:39PM

I was going to give my opinion but I'm afraid the amount of yuri I've read doesn't qualify for this level of topic

gud haha

Some are more "mild" but have the same message behind them. Like:
Girl 1: "I don't feel like i'll be winning no matter how long i live."
Girl 2: "Wait, you thought you could win?"

This was from the series "Out of the blue!"

This is just a random couple teasing each other. One girl happens to be easily embarrassed while the other is a bit bold. This isn't uncommon in reality or romance as a whole, so how is this "top-bottom" yuri?

Don't worry, they've read more yuri than you.

I can taste the salt. I should probably put it in the pile created by LoL, Overwatch and CS GO players.

It’s simply just easier to establish a story where one with a more assertive role in the relationship.

I wrote some fanfics before, and despite my characters (in a yuri relationship) were set to switch “role”, it is simply very difficult to do so within the same arc of chapter. Whenever they switch role, always have to followed by a change of chapter to make the story “flow”

Similarly, you can look at other manga genre, like fighting shounen. Only one side will deliver all of the punches and overpowering the other at one time (before the role is reversed if needed). Comparing to real life, real fighting tends to be more dynamic with blows being traded equally

last edited at Feb 21, 2018 12:49PM

I'm not saying they have to do it at the same time, though 69 is an option wink. I was just saying that they both should do it. As in one takes the lead and then they switch. In many NSFW one-shots, there are 2-3 sex scenes. So there is plenty of "space" to change it up. I was just confused over the idolization of the top-bottom seme-uke thing. Seems that others have the same opinion though. I couldn't know, as I have never read a comment saying "I wish they switched it up" and only "She is the top bla bla bottom bla bla".

You've never read someone saying that? Comments like that are pretty common in Sekihara's work, with a couple of exceptions. And on Love Live doujin discussions, I see "why is Nico always the bottom" quite often.

I'm not saying they have to do it at the same time, though 69 is an option wink. I was just saying that they both should do it. As in one takes the lead and then they switch. In many NSFW one-shots, there are 2-3 sex scenes. So there is plenty of "space" to change it up. I was just confused over the idolization of the top-bottom seme-uke thing. Seems that others have the same opinion though. I couldn't know, as I have never read a comment saying "I wish they switched it up" and only "She is the top bla bla bottom bla bla".

You've never read someone saying that? Comments like that are pretty common in Sekihara's work, with a couple of exceptions. And on Love Live doujin discussions, I see "why is Nico always the bottom" quite often.

Hmmmm. I fail to recall, though I have also wondered why Nozomi is always the bottom. I guess when you feed people so much of the same couple with the same outcome, they begin wishing for a change too.

last edited at Feb 21, 2018 12:51PM

It’s simply just easier to establish a story where one with a more assertive role in the relationship.

I wrote some fanfics before, and despite my characters (in a yuri relationship) were set to switch “role”, it is simply very difficult to do so within the same arc of chapter. Whenever they switch role, always have to followed by a change of chapter to make the story “flow”

Similarly, you can look at other manga genre, like fighting shounen. Only one side will deliver all of the punches and overpowering the other at one time (before the role is reversed if needed). Comparing to real life, real fighting tends to be more dynamic with blows being traded equally

I'm not talking about the reversal tag. I am talking about a relationship of mutual giving and receiving. You don't need to start up by having one dominate and then change their spots. You can just have it so none dominate over the other.

I'd say there are plenty reasons.

a) It's a bit of kink, some spice, something vaguely non-vanilla even if by and large it's really no big deal, but anyway, there's some extra excitement there (see all the kabedon stuff), and in stories and fantasies you might prefer going for that sort of thing

b) It models heternormative society / real-life couples that copy the in Japan still prevalent male-assertive-breadwinner woman-submissive-homemaker thing. People do this irl so why shouldn't they in fiction? And besides it might also be a mindset the author themselves have, subconsciously ...

c) Vaguely like having a butch/femme "fetish" (which isn't exactly analogous but can be sort of related) people might simply be "into" this for whatever reasons

Don't worry, they've read more yuri than you.

I can taste the salt. I should probably put it in the pile created by LoL, Overwatch and CS GO players.

???

The thing about generic hentai was uncalled for

?????? Is this that "I'm not angry, you're angry" thing?

Weren't you warned about trolling before as well?

last edited at Feb 21, 2018 5:19PM by