It hurts my heart to see Tokujira crying like that... Being too late is a common mistake in netorare stories, but here it doesn't feel like she deserved it (contrary to what some may think in NTR stories)

I'm pretty sure you either use the term NTR incorrect or don't understand what it actually mean. This is just a normal love triangle, there is nothing NTR about it.

Speaking of this, I wonder if there's a manga where there's a triangle and then the MC goes for one of them, then, after a while, breaks up and goes for the the second one.

Except Kashimashi girl meets girl, which is the only one that pulled that off as far as I know.

Only in the anime version.

Was about to comment on that. Well it was more that at some point manga and anime went different ways and in anime he ended up with different girl. He actually does end up with her as the series ends. It is only in ova (which came much later I assume) it is explained in 1 sentence that they broke up off screen and he started to date the other girl which imo was a insult to people who actually enjoyed anime. I'm not sure if it is true, but my best guess it happened because of course anime was being made as manga was still ongoing and it kinda looked the girl they choose in anime would win, but later the other one won so they wanted to retcon it for some unyurily reason?

Hazumu was actually predestined to die, they knew this, courtesy of alien-kun. She was unable to decide between Yasuna and Tomari until it was almost too late. At the last moment, when she was mere seconds away from dying, she called out to Tomari. Alien-kun used some alien techno stuff in that precise moment to connect their hearts and thus save Hazumu (he was only able to do this because of 'true love', thus making it even more entrenched that Tomari is the one).

The fact he was supposed to die wasn't really that important. He simply was undecided who he loves more. And he didn't actually wait till the last minute. He was about to confess who he loves more or maybe even say both, but Alien-kun made a mistake in his calculations and Hazumu died faster than he thought. Also it wasn't like he had to make decision, it was more that in theory if his love would be strong enough and other person would share the same feelings, Alien-kun might be able to do something, but that wasn't certain. In fact Hazumu couldn't even know about the connecting hearts deal, because if he had started to think about it in terms of prolonging his life, it would make his feelings impure and make the whole deal impossible. The reason their love was "true" was because in his last moments, the person that first came to his mind was Tomari, making her the person he considered the most important and it still wouldn't work if Tomari didn't immediately jump in to try and save him, showing his live was more important than hers and she was ready to sacrifice it for him. So that was the only reason they fates could be linked together, because in that instant they shared a strong bond thinking only of each other. So they simply just loved each other that much.

I'm pretty sure you either use the term NTR incorrect or don't understand what it actually mean. This is just a normal love triangle, there is nothing NTR about it.

Explain to me where I'm wrong, just saying it is a bit frustrating. What I was going for is that in the stories I read which were labelled NTR, the MC get their love interest taken from them because they take too much time or don't want to actually commit to their feelings (that and the fact they're getting off of it, which is clearly absent there, yes); this is kind of what is happening right there when she explains to herself that she took too much time to realise what she was feeling.

Tokujira kinda solved her issues way too late [...].

^ And, apparently, I'm not alone thinking like this. So this is was the kind of similarities I had in my mind, and if I push it further, I could say that NTR is just a specific case of a love triangle.

The point is that in NTR stories, I've seen people write "the cucked one (that would be Tokujira there) deserves it" and the above quote gives similar vibes (way waaaay less spiteful, obviously). That would've been less sad if it was Tokujira's own fault to lose her love interest. But since she was deceived by Itsuki, I find it unfair - that said, yes, this is just the outcome of a love triangle, I'm just sad my "team" lost.

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 11:57AM

Nevri
Nah, I know that. She did not know she was about to die that very instant, and it is left ambiguous what her intention was when she met them on the rooftop. I wrote that she was unable to decide until it was almost too late, because fate intervened and almost killed her then, not that she deliberately waited until the last second. Hazumu loved both of them, and she was always a lost cause when it came to tough decisions, so she stalled making the final choice for much of the manga. In fact, she stalled until what was supposed to be her last day of life. Alien-kun did miscalculate, but only by a few hours.

As for the anime, yeah, it was over before the final volume of the manga was published, so the staff had to wing it regarding the ending. But, considering that a snippet of the OVA, specifically, the parts where Yasuna breaks up with Hazumu and Hazumu then confesses to Tomari, are included in the last regular episode (12th episode, after the credits), and even the OVA came before the final volume of the manga, means that the anime ending of Hazumu/Tomari actually predates the manga ending. That being said, it was done much better in the manga. In the anime the breakup with Yasuna has little sense, and it somewhat cheapens Hazumu's feelings for Tomari, when Hazumu practically immediately after said breakup confesses to the other girl. I mean, I liked it because I rooted for Tomari (in both versions), but the anime ending felt like something out of left field.

Edit: Also, lol, getting off topic too much.

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 12:58PM

I'm pretty sure you either use the term NTR incorrect or don't understand what it actually mean. This is just a normal love triangle, there is nothing NTR about it.

in the stories I read which were labelled NTR, the MC get their love interest taken from them because they take too much time or don't want to actually commit to their feelings

And that is what I meant I feel like your definition is off. NTR is mostly about 2 characters loving each other and/or actually being in relationship, but then the love interest (female since it is usually het stuff) get blackmailed in some way and forced to leave MC and ends up getting mind broken or w/e to be with other guy and the usually ending is the MC finding out and being unable to do anything other than (usually, but not always) fapping to some sex tape of his beloved. Sure, there are some stories where they aren't a couple yet and girl doesn't necessary loves the guy yet, but girl still gets stolen by some guy, who usually at least knows the MC's feelings or I guess in rare cases it just happen so just bad luck, but for the most part I'm familiar with stories as I described first. People say the MC gets off on his lover being stolen, but I never get that impression, it always happen when it is already too late and MC is a wrack devastated by his lose so he just goes to business because he lost all his will etc.

The point is that in NTR stories, I've seen people write "the cucked one (that would be Tokujira there) deserves it"

And that is again something I never saw. The guy who is doing the cucking is usually some assholes which abuses his power or something else in the first place to steal the girl, because he can. To me NTR is a really specific kind of work, usually really dark and fucked up to the core, that is why you describing this series as one sounds to me so wrong on so many lvls.

That would've been less sad if it was Tokujira's own fault to lose her love interest. But since she was deceived by Itsuki, I find it unfair

Itsuki never really deceive her. I mean, she would never pay any attention to him if he wasn't dressed as a girl. By dressing as a girl that was the only way she would even come to know him and we still aren't sure w/e she fallen for him as a girl or as guy, so in the end you could say, she had chance to love him as either only because he "deceived" her in the first place. So yes, it was her own fault. Botan simply had better chemistry with him whatever boy or girl version, so no wonder Itsuki's feelings changed during time Tokujira was doing nothing.

As for the anime, yeah, it was over before the final volume of the manga was published, so the staff had to wing it regarding the ending. But, considering that a snippet of the OVA, specifically, the parts where Yasuna breaks up with Hazumu and Hazumu then confesses to Tomari, are included in the last regular episode (12th episode, after the credits), and even the OVA came before the final volume of the manga. means that the anime ending of Hazumu/Tomari actually predates the manga ending.

I didn't bother to check dates, but I didn't remember it was included in last episode. I was sure it was all in the OVA. My bad then.

That being said, it was done much better in the manga. In the anime the breakup with Yasuna has little sense, and it somewhat cheapens Hazumu's feelings for Tomari, when Hazumu practically immediately after said breakup confesses to the other girl. I mean, I liked it because I rooted for Tomari (in both versions), but the anime ending felt like something out of left field.

Yes, the ending really put a dumper on things. It felt pretty satisfying until weird breaking them up with little to explanation and then Hazumu just going to his second choice as if Tomari was a back up or something. Still even if anime and manga differ quite a bit, I still like them both. They both have good points I think. Then again I watched anime few times (I really love the comedy in early episodes) and read manga only once. Maybe I should give it a re-read sometime soon. Btw what I much like more in manga over anime is the Yasuna's approach, or I guess their personalities are totally different. In anime she is too afraid to approach Hazumu, even after he turned into a girl, in manga once he turns into a girl, she realized it is like a miracle for her cos now she don't have to worry of it disappearing one day and comes on strong at him at every opportunity. Her being so aggressive was really refreshing compare to typical melodramatic love triangles.

Edit: Also, lol, getting off topic too much.

Just a little bit ;P

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 1:14PM

Btw what I much like more in manga over anime is the Yasuna's approach, or I guess their personalities are totally different. In anime she is too afraid to approach Hazumu, even after he turned into a girl, in manga once he turns into a girl, she realized it is like a miracle for her cos now she don't have to worry of it disappearing one day and comes on strong at him at every opportunity. Her being so aggressive was really refreshing compare to typical melodramatic love triangles.

Yep, I agree. Also, in the anime there is that being-sick-and-needing-your-love-interest-to-get-better factor. I mean, Yasuna did not deliberately use it, but the fact she also lost the ability to see female faces in the end, and was devastated, led, amongst other things, to even Tomari admitting Yasuna "needs" Hazumu more. There was none of that in the manga, they both pursued Hazumu as equals.

Also, I swear this is my last off-topic post here. I actually tried searching for Kashimashi thread, to post there, but it does not exist, apparently...

To me NTR is a really specific kind of work, usually really dark and fucked up to the core, that is why you describing this series as one sounds to me so wrong on so many lvls.

I was just pointing out similarities with stuff I've experienced in NTR, not actually calling it NTR.

Itsuki never really deceive her.

That is plainly wrong, regardless of the rest :p The very act of changing his identity to reach out to her is deceiving. And that ought to be confusing to be falling for her girl just to learn it's guy afterwards. Sure you can realise that you love the person regardless of their sex/gender, but that takes some time to process.

Meanwhile, Itsuki, who's trying to help her to get closer to her with the goal to be with her, falls for another girl. Well, her only fault was falling for him(er) (s)he was nice with her, still I can't help but feel a bit of unfairness coming from Itsuki's side.

Would it have been really different if she confessed to her before? I don't know.. Botan falls for the guy pretty fast and I'm pretty sure he does too.

And that is again something I never saw.

It came from a discussion from a friend and I think I've read in the "Your fault" story. It happens when you think of love as a competition, somehow.

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 2:22PM

There was none of that in the manga, they both pursued Hazumu as equals.

Yea. That was better imo too. Later part of the anime feels a bit weaker in general, especially with it feeling like Hazumu got guilt tripped into choosing Yasuna and stupid misunderstanding.

Also, I swear this is my last off-topic post here. I actually tried searching for Kashimashi thread, to post there, but it does not exist, apparently...

Well manga is not uploaded here so no wonder. And yes I think we can safely end it here or move it to manga general thread or something x3

I was just pointing out similarities with stuff I've experienced in NTR, not actually calling it NTR.

The way you said it sounded like that, hence my respond.

Itsuki never really deceive her.

That is plainly wrong, regardless of the rest :p

Well it wasn't his fault the first time. And you can argue whatever or not once she explained her situation and asked him to help her, it was right or wrong for him to help her out while keeping his gender a secret. Sure he had impure motives, but it wasn't like he tried to manipulate her, in fact only thing he wanted was to point her into direction of his male self and then do the rest of work as a guy. My point is, deceiving is kinda a strong word. It sounds like he is tricking or manipulating her, while in fact, he tried to genuinely help her and didn't really took advantage of his position other than trying to make her aware of his male self.

Meanwhile, Itsuki, who's trying to help her to get closer to her with the goal to be with her, falls for another girl.

Nobody is obligated to pursue their first love. His feeling simply changed over time which might not happen had Tokujira made her move faster.

Also just in case, I never thought she deserved it or anything.

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 2:44PM

Speaking of this, I wonder if there's a manga where there's a triangle and then the MC goes for one of them, then, after a while, breaks up and goes for the the second one.

Good Ending and Domestic na Kanojo by Sasuga Kei and Kimi no Iru Machi by Seo Kouji.

Then there's also VN Kimi ga Nozomu Eien and its anime adaptation, where MC's girlfriend has an encounter with Truck-kun, but the gods of Isekai haven't visited Japan yet, so the girl falls into coma instead of being transported to another world. Meanwhile MC and his best female friend (who also loved him for a long time), trying to console each other, start a relationship. Then, few years later, MC's sort-of-ex-girlfriend wakes up from coma and nobody has the courage to tell her that she's been asleep for a few years.

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 9:51PM

Domestic na Kanojo, I'm not sure.

The MC is a wimp going like a pendulum between the two. It's not over, as far as I know, so whether Rui or Hina "wins" is still on the table.

Though, somehow you could say that he went from Rui to Hina, because he slept with Rui first, but it wasn't really a relationship. Rui just wanted to get rid of her virginity at the time and she choose that random guy because she thought she would never see him again.

Domestic na Kanojo, I'm not sure.

The MC is a wimp going like a pendulum between the two. It's not over, as far as I know, so whether Rui or Hina "wins" is still on the table.

Though, somehow you could say that he went from Rui to Hina, because he slept with Rui first, but it wasn't really a relationship. Rui just wanted to get rid of her virginity at the time and she choose that random guy because she thought she would never see him again.

Well, he went from Rui to Hina, then she broke up with him, and now he's with Rui, afaik. Maybe something else happened while I wasn't reading it.

Hmm... no. AFAIK, Rui is going out with the blond guy.. The one that tried to rape her previously, but somehow got forgiven.. (I can't stand him). MC's is still hung up on Hina, even though the one he probably needs is Rui.

All in all, this manga is a mess and I wanted to slap the MC silly numerous times.

last edited at Nov 13, 2017 6:01AM

Hadn't realized this got put on Dynasty, though I'm not very surprised. I wrote a review on it last year (wow, like exactly last year)!

Review: https://terrenceswiff.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/ookami-shounen-wa-kyou-mo-uso-o-kasaneru/

The review's a bit of a time capsule since at the time I wasn't sure how it would end and thus wasn't sure if I should recommend it. I was, however, convinced about how it would end and was largely right (though sure it's not quite over yet). Great manga, wonderful subversion, excellent, fantastic, SUPERB love interest.

last edited at Nov 20, 2017 5:21AM

Yes. YES!

last edited at Nov 22, 2017 6:24PM

Final chapter's up on Batoto.

I just saw ch 32 being posted

Wow pretty good ending! i love this manga! i hope there is an spinoff for the sister :D

Meh, I know everybody wanted Botan's end, the author as well apparently, still found it quite bland in the end. I can't help but feel I've been scammed. The story was sold to me as a romance between the MC and Tokujira, with focus on her and her problems then it shifted during its course.

The end felt quite rushed as well, there is some kind of solace for Tokujira but nothing definite like is she going the yuri route or what? Would've hoped for no ellipses and a bit more material before the last chapter. Still, I enjoyed the angst and the cute moments overall, just the end that was a bit of let down.

Thanks for the translation!

last edited at Dec 9, 2017 8:56PM

This was a great read. I definitely didn't expect to enjoy it that much when I first started.

I can't help but feel I've been scammed. The story was sold to me as a romance between the MC and Tokujira, with focus on her and her problems then it shifted during its course.

I, for one, love when the characters find love somewhere they didn't expect beforehand, so I was completely a-ok with it. Botan being cute as a button only made me enjoy this turn of events even more.

I feel like in a narrative sense, we were owed a conversation between the girls after last chapter. For this chapter to completely drop the ball in that regard is really disappointing. However, the Botan cuteness levels were off the charts in what we got, so it's not too terrible to miss out on it.

I personally feel like ending with Botan was a bit of an asspull to please fans who overwhelmingly wanted her over the main girl. Feels like the train got diverted halfway through. I like Botan a lot too, don't get me wrong, I just feel like we at some point crossed into an alternate universe and switched love interests and it feels...off.

sorathecrow posted:

I personally feel like ending with Botan was a bit of an asspull to please fans who overwhelmingly wanted her over the main girl. Feels like the train got diverted halfway through. I like Botan a lot too, don't get me wrong, I just feel like we at some point crossed into an alternate universe and switched love interests and it feels...off.

Yea because feelings are set in stone. It's not like they can change or fade over time. The first person you fall in love is the one you will end up with no matter what because that is how love works. Not like you could find someone else, especially if your love interest doesn't really interact with you or show any interest (or even know you exist).

sorathecrow posted:

I personally feel like ending with Botan was a bit of an asspull to please fans who overwhelmingly wanted her over the main girl. Feels like the train got diverted halfway through. I like Botan a lot too, don't get me wrong, I just feel like we at some point crossed into an alternate universe and switched love interests and it feels...off.

Yea because feelings are set in stone. It's not like they can change or fade over time. The first person you fall in love is the one you will end up with no matter what because that is how love works. Not like you could find someone else, especially if your love interest doesn't really interact with you or show any interest (or even know you exist).

It's sad that so many manga and anime writers legitimately believe what you just wrote, resulting in countless agonizing love triangle plots where you just KNOW the most wonderful characters have no chance of winning.

themusicman500 posted:

sorathecrow posted:

I personally feel like ending with Botan was a bit of an asspull to please fans who overwhelmingly wanted her over the main girl. Feels like the train got diverted halfway through. I like Botan a lot too, don't get me wrong, I just feel like we at some point crossed into an alternate universe and switched love interests and it feels...off.

Yea because feelings are set in stone. It's not like they can change or fade over time. The first person you fall in love is the one you will end up with no matter what because that is how love works. Not like you could find someone else, especially if your love interest doesn't really interact with you or show any interest (or even know you exist).

It's sad that so many manga and anime writers legitimately believe what you just wrote, resulting in countless agonizing love triangle plots where you just KNOW the most wonderful characters have no chance of winning.

Don't even get me started on ones where mc falls in love when they are kid because someone was kind to them or some similar flimsy bs and it made them fall in love so hard with them they will never forgot the feeling. They are the only one they will ever love and of course when they happen to find them 10 or so years later they totally still love them and they just must get together with them because it is fate! Because the feelings and memories you experienced as a kid are the most reliable things to base your entire life around.

Nevri posted:

themusicman500 posted:

sorathecrow posted:

I personally feel like ending with Botan was a bit of an asspull to please fans who overwhelmingly wanted her over the main girl. Feels like the train got diverted halfway through. I like Botan a lot too, don't get me wrong, I just feel like we at some point crossed into an alternate universe and switched love interests and it feels...off.

Yea because feelings are set in stone. It's not like they can change or fade over time. The first person you fall in love is the one you will end up with no matter what because that is how love works. Not like you could find someone else, especially if your love interest doesn't really interact with you or show any interest (or even know you exist).

It's sad that so many manga and anime writers legitimately believe what you just wrote, resulting in countless agonizing love triangle plots where you just KNOW the most wonderful characters have no chance of winning.

Don't even get me started on ones where mc falls in love when they are kid because someone was kind to them or some similar flimsy bs and it made them fall in love so hard with them they will never forgot the feeling. They are the only one they will ever love and of course when they happen to find them 10 or so years later they totally still love them and they just must get together with them because it is fate! Because the feelings and memories you experienced as a kid are the most reliable things to base your entire life around.

Futari Monologue

Yea because feelings are set in stone. It's not like they can change or fade over time. The first person you fall in love is the one you will end up with no matter what because that is how love works. Not like you could find someone else, especially if your love interest doesn't really interact with you or show any interest (or even know you exist).

Reality/believable stuff doesn't always make for interesting stories. It all depends on the writings, how things are played out and, most importantly, on the expectations of the reader (the one giving their opinion).

I'm assuming there's a lot of projection in both parties, and if I can find cute both Botan and the way she fell in love with Itsuki (even if I don't find her as cute as everybody else, despite her being some kind of tsundere), I can't say the same about how he fell in love with her. And I found the romance between Tokujira and Itsuki more interesting.

It all comes down to what you're expecting in a story : a dreamy wish fulfilling story with lots of strong emotions and overarching struggles? Or a less extravagant but believable and sweet story with more intimate and subtle struggle? Of course, that's not the only options but that's the idea. The dreamy story can be so incoherent that it ends up not working at all for you, the realistic story can be so.. realistic it ends up being dull and bland.

The thing is, when I first started reading I was expecting a story about Tokujira finally getting over her fear of men and Itsuki finally having his feelings for her requited despite all the struggles they would went through - or, during the event of the story, Tokujira finding some kind of solace.

She kind of did, but we didn't see most of it when she clearly was one of the two MCs and kind of the centre of the story for most of it, and in the end, the final chapter is focused on boring problems about a generic couple and completely glossed over Tokujira.

I mean sure, Botan was there for Itsuki so it is completely believable and coherent for him to have developped feelings for her in the end, but it all happened too fast and the route changed only three chapters ago... I read it in one go (almost) and I can't say I felt the Botan route would be the end game, almost everybody else felt the same as well - part of the reasons why everybody was flipping out : "if Botan isn't end game I'm gonna insert unrealistically funny threat".

So you can see how it is possible that some people feel like this was sort of an asspull. Not necessarily only because of fan pressure, but perhaps the author had a goal in mind at first and also realised half-way through that from what she's written, it made "more sense" to have Itsuki fall for Botan in the end. But still...

[...] resulting in countless agonizing love triangle plots where you just KNOW the most wonderful characters have no chance of winning.

Well, who's to say which is the most wonderful character? That's what makes love triangle interesting both in and out of the story if they're done well.

Because the feelings and memories you experienced as a kid are the most reliable things to base your entire life around.

I know this was supposed to be sarcastic or something, but I think this is closer to reality than what you'd like/think. It's not something we do consciously, but almost everything we do and how we act is probably based on or influenced by what happened during our childhood (education, traumas, people looking for one of their parents in their love partner, etc.), so in the end... it may be more realistic than what you let on - but I agree, it's not reliable.

I've spent way too much time on this, but I guess I love this story that much (or debating) in the end. Sorry for the typos and nonsense.

last edited at Dec 10, 2017 11:27PM