I would like to say that while I'm curious what SF's gender is, I don't think it's a good idea to base an arguement off of it. The same way a girl can play with hot wheels, a girl could find that kind of fashion fine. I didn't meant to put anyone in a box by asking.

Edit: Baka updates says the author is apperently female, as well, so... ( ´_ゝ`)

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 6:44PM

RoyceAxle

We weren't talking about plot or characters because that's not what this aguement was about. We were debating weather on not this manga is targeted towards males, and as such, gender is at the core of the arguement.

Well, to answer the question of the debate, I'd say yes and no. Is there a guy out there who would be aroused by this? Absoulutly.
Was it the authors intention to arouse guys with this doujin? No, If you read the afterword (AKA Page 16) the author says that they wanted to try out writing manga.

Alice

I haven't ignored other issues with the story. I'd directly addressed both in the past

I was replying to kickap00 and RoyceAxle. I guess I should've made that clearer.

there's a difference between saying that you thought they were pointless or irrelevant and what you actually said which is:

I never really found the skirts to be that short, yeah they were a little revealing but not to the point where it bothered me.

Which states it as a fact, which is unambiguously incorrect.

I think the length of the girl's skirts is completely irrelevant but if I were to give my thoughts on how it looked then I'd say no, I don't find it to be that short.

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 6:57PM

SF posted:

I think the length of the girl's skirts is completely irrelevant but if I were to give my thoughts on how it looked then I'd say no, I don't find it to be that short.

Then my edit is relevant here: If that's not too short then what exactly would you classify as too short? Cause you really can't get a skirt shorter than that. Any shorter and it literally stops being a skirt.

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 7:18PM

This week on Dynasty Scans, an argument about how feasibly short a girl's skirt can be. Tune in next week where we'll argue about poisonous tree frogs or something.

I'm saying that I thought this doujin was rather simple and cute and that the scantily clad outfits were details that I thought were pointless and irrelevant, they didn't bother me because I simply payed no attention to them. That's why I didn't consider it fan-service, however you guys do consider it fan-service because those details you spotted and payed close attention to and chose to use that as an argument on why you consider this doujin to be bad, eliminating other important factors like Plot and Characters.

The panty shots were REALLY distracting that I couldn't even focus on "plot and characters" which is hilarious because it seems like the author has no idea what actual lesbians are like and just took every yuri trope and mashed it all together.

Also what the hell does my gender have to do with anything?

It could just explain some things, like why you don't consider the skirts short. You can't get shorter than that.

But this is honestly more time than I wanted to spend arguing over some generic panties.

You can't just "answer the question of the debate", you know that's not how it works, right? (ﾟ▽ﾟ)

If you want me talk about the story and characters, I'll do that as well. The characters where basically just copy and pasted archetypes without any real soul, and they're more really there to be cute than to further the plot. Not really relatable either, it's a dumb gyaru (authors own words) and a kuudere, both of them fumbling around the entire time.

The plot wasn't exactly anything new, maybe if you've discovered yuri for the first time, but it's definitely not really engaging, or heart fluttering, or sexy.

Edit: Also, the argument over skirt length seems to be a lost cause, if a micro mini skirt isn't short to SF, that's objectively wrong.

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 7:42PM

You can't just "answer the question of the debate", you know that's not how it works, right? (ﾟ▽ﾟ)

Perhaps a better way to word it would be "If I were to give my opinion on the topic of the debate".

Also, the argument over skirt length seems to be a lost cause, if a micro mini shirt isn't short to SF.

I said I did find it to be short, but not so short that it bothers me enough to complain about it. I think you people are looking to deep into this. The length of a character's skirt is completely irrelevant when it come's to manga, or any character driven story for that matter. If you guy's are bothered by the length of a character's skirt then I don't know what to tell you ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I asked a random schoolgirl, Saki Miyanaga and a random strike witch, Yoshika Miyafuji about the skirt lengths. Yoshika said they were very nice, and Saki said "Mahjong is very tanoshi."

A dissenting opinion: https://dynasty-scans.com/system/images_images/000/006/098/original/ifkXK0y.jpg?1490928109

The skirt was very short. I'm fine with it, and I found this manga pretty inoffensive in general. Characters in manga and comics can pull off certain fashion choices that look silly or embarrassing in the real world.

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 8:26PM

themusicman500 posted:

The skirt was very short. I'm fine with it, and I found this manga pretty inoffensive in general. Characters in manga and comics can pull off certain fashion choices that look silly or embarrassing in the real world.

No! It means they are sluts!

(I'm female and I don't mind those skirts in the slightest. Skirts that short are basically common place in manga since forever. Who I am to judge how much they want to reveal their legs and [apparent lack of] panties [seriously that is some saki lvl shit])

themusicman500 posted:

The skirt was very short. I'm fine with it, and I found this manga pretty inoffensive in general. Characters in manga and comics can pull off certain fashion choices that look silly or embarrassing in the real world.

No! It means they are sluts!

(I'm female and I don't mind those skirts in the slightest. Skirts that short are basically common place in manga since forever. Who I am to judge how much they want to reveal their legs and [apparent lack of] panties [seriously that is some saki lvl shit])

We weren't judging anime girls fashion choices on weather or not that makes the characters sluts or not. It was about the author and weather or not skirts were intended for male gaze. (´-ω-`)

It was about the author and weather or not skirts were intended for male gaze. (´-ω-`)

In this particular case it's not meant to attract the male gaze because the author said in the afterword that this was their first shot at a manga. They just wanted to write a simple cute manga about two childhood friends, they weren't trying to fetishize Yuri, they weren't trying to make this arousing, they were just trying to have fun drawing cutesy interactions between two friends.

Yes, In some cases short skirts may be intended for the male gaze. That's only true in harem manga/anime. That's not the case here. You're being offended by one-shot about a doujin that's not really meant to be taken seriously. Are you also the same kind of person who is offended by girls with revealing outfits in video game's as well perhaps?

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 8:51PM

SF posted:

Yes, In some cases short skirts may be intended for the male gaze. That's only true in harem manga/anime. That's not the case here. You're being offended by one-shot about a doujin that's not really meant to be taken seriously. Are you also the same kind of person who is offended by girls with revealing outfits in video game's as well perhaps?

You're confusing criticizing the choice with being offended by it. I just find it unrealistic at best personally. I actually have no issue with short skirts as long as they look decent. This instance I find not to look decent at all and comes across as fairly tasteless.

I only even kept up the discussion as long as I have because I'm legitimately confused how someone can say it's not too short when any shorter and it doesn't even count as a skirt. (And have yet to get an explanation despite asking twice now.)

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 9:00PM

You're just assuming I'm offended now? (´-ω-`)

You're taking this more seriously than anyone else here. I started of this debate saying that I don't wish to offend, but... (￣∀￣)

RoyceAxle posted:

themusicman500 posted:

The skirt was very short. I'm fine with it, and I found this manga pretty inoffensive in general. Characters in manga and comics can pull off certain fashion choices that look silly or embarrassing in the real world.

No! It means they are sluts!

(I'm female and I don't mind those skirts in the slightest. Skirts that short are basically common place in manga since forever. Who I am to judge how much they want to reveal their legs and [apparent lack of] panties [seriously that is some saki lvl shit])

We weren't judging anime girls fashion choices on weather or not that makes the characters sluts or not. It was about the author and weather or not skirts were intended for male gaze. (´-ω-`)

I know and I'm honestly sick of it. Most people act like those "male targeted yuri" stuff is somehow hurting industry or something. You don't like it? Cool, but don't go out of your way to bash it on every occasion. Sure it is written more with male audience in mind and often has some questionable fanservice. I don't like all of them, but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy some. Like this one, it was pretty harmless one shot fluff and you guys tear it apart because of too short skirts and some panty shots. It gets boring after a while when entire criticism boils down to whatever it was intended for "male gaze" or not and if it was, then you can just blame everything that is wrong with work on it. And the entire "male gaze" thing is also getting pretty annoying. As if males had some different gaze than lesbians or something. Like only they can want to see and enjoy some flashing panties etc. I know more realistic and grounded stories that showcase real lesbians are good, since we don't have a lot of them, but it doesn't mean you can't read something less serious with silly fanservice once in a while. And if you didn't like it, you can always make fun of it (seriously I bet they watch Saki in free time). Anyway, it's not like if we get less male targeted yuri, it will somehow increase the amount of "real" yuri and even if it uses cheap tricks to encourage guys to read it, it is still good, because if they end up liking it they might get more into yuri and start seeking those more serious stories and when more people will get into them, then there will be more reason to write those more serious series. So in short, there is no harm in them.

We're not criticizing the manga for anything here, and I'm not sure were you even got that from. I've already stated that the idea that girl's can't enjoy "guy things" is just plainly false and hypocritical even. But there shouldn't be anything wrong with asking question's about what other people thought about it, and why they thought that. It just sort of deteriorated in a typical internet flame war.

RoyceAxle posted:

We're not criticizing the manga for anything here, and I'm not sure were you even got that from. I've already stated that the idea that girl's can't enjoy "guy things" is just plainly false and hypocritical even. But there shouldn't be anything wrong with asking question's about what other people thought about it, and why they thought that. It just sort of deteriorated in a typical internet flame war.

I didn't read entire thread when I replied, so I only read it now. Well you do focus on how skirts are too short and how it is intended for male gaze and how it has pointless fanservice, so you pretty clearly criticize it. Even saying that characters are bland and lack personalities and that story is copy past every story ever. I just find that entire focus on intended audience pointless for any real discussion. Maybe not specifically you, but others pretty much chastised this manga for being too male targeted. If anyone can like anything, then why so many people still are so bended over classifying for who the manga was made for?

EDIT/ And that happens a lot on dynasty. Work being classified as "for males" and putting entire criticism on that fact.

last edited at Jun 29, 2017 9:28PM

Sorry, wrong choice of words on my part, i meant we weren't bashing it. Whatever, doesn't matter that anyway. #nihilismistheanswer

I'm not offended though... I didn't mean to start a big discourse about this. I just find all the panty shots distracting and it takes away from what little this manga was. I'm not prude about scantily clad clothing but I want the characters to make me feel something. I'm not saying it's the worst case I've ever seen but yes I am criticizing it for that and the dull characters. I realize this is the authors first manga so I could be wrong but they won't improve without criticism.

You're just assuming I'm offended now? (´-ω-`)

Well to be frank you did sound like you took some offense to the doujin.

You're taking this more seriously than anyone else here. I started of this debate saying that I don't wish to offend, but... (￣∀￣)

I'm not offended, I was just trying to show you my point of view on things. I'm not trying to convince or force you to have the same opinion as me. If I came across as harsh, mean, or angry then I apologize.

And to answer your question Alice Cheshire, When it's so short that it isn't a skirt anymore, thats when I consider it to be to short.

last edited at Jun 30, 2017 12:40AM

I think applying western concepts to japanese authors is a dangerous thing to do. As it was said already, the author is female. There's a lot of pervy female author in the yuri genre.
Also remember how the female author of Sakura Trick actually asked the anime production to focus on the girls' tights and boobs. It was her wish, above all.

So I don't know if we can apply the "male gaze" term here. These authors mostly draw and write for themselves more than anything. This is a doujin, to begin with, not a comercial manga.

You're just assuming I'm offended now? (´-ω-`)

Well to be frank you did sound like you took some offense to the doujin.

You're taking this more seriously than anyone else here. I started of this debate saying that I don't wish to offend, but... (￣∀￣)

I'm not offended, I was just trying to show you my point of view on things. I'm not trying to convince or force you to have the same opinion as me. If I came across as harsh, mean, or angry then I apologize.

And to answer your question Alice Cheshire, When it's so short that it isn't a skirt anymore, thats when I consider it to be to short.

Sorry if it came off that way, it was more meant to be critical. I think the only reason this became an arguement is that we can't see each other's facial expressions and body language over the Internet to know how each statement was meant to be said. Tends to happen a lot.

This is the brief little exchange I had with Komiya-san over the course of yesterday and today. I hope she can learn to have a bit more confidence in the future :).

How did this get a yuri tag? Yeah Sayabliked her friend but they never went deep enough to go beyond subtext. Her reactions show attraction but it's too early to call it yuri. New Game and Urara have more yuri in it and neither of them are tagged as yuri. Also there's not enough from Mei to say she likes Saya in the same way as well. Unless this continue I think it's too early to give this a yuri tag. Overall thought the story was pretty meh and had too much unnecessary fanservice.