As per the title, Human Rights Watch has released a report on LGBT bullying in Japanese schools and, as you might expect, it ain't good.

This is relevant to the sort of stories were read here, and you can really see it in the very common plot device of girls keeping their relationship secret. In Japanese schools, that's a matter of survival and it appears they're nowhere close to effectively dealing with it particularly since the government seems disinclined to do anything effective.

And that's where much of the allegory in Yuri Kuma Arashi came from!

I get that this is a serious issue and all, but there's one thing I just can't get out of my head. "Since I was three, I knew I was gay." This guy's a fast learner.

I was aware of the two-faced attitudes surrounding LGBT in Japan ("Yeah, play around when you're a kid, but make sure you get educated, married, and have kids"), but I didn't know it was this bad for younger people.

While Japan certainly is most wonderful in many ways, it is about time people are allowed to be people, and not so heavily pressured to conform to antiquated ideas of "how it should be".

I get that this is a serious issue and all, but there's one thing I just can't get out of my head. "Since I was three, I knew I was gay." This guy's a fast learner.

It is actually very common for both trans and gay people to feel like that, although personally I didn't realize/accept it until I was around 20... Guess I'm a bit dull... x)

last edited at May 7, 2016 11:05AM

I was aware of the two-faced attitudes surrounding LGBT in Japan ("Yeah, play around when you're a kid, but make sure you get educated, married, and have kids"), but I didn't know it was this bad for younger people.

Bullying in general is famously widespread in Japanese schools and credited for at least part of the high youth suicide rate. It's generally a big issue that's not effectively dealt with, even beyond LGBT youth.

While Japan certainly is most wonderful in many ways, it is about time people are allowed to be people, and not so heavily pressured to conform to antiquated ideas of "how it should be".

There's very good stuff in Japan, but if you don't toe the line it can suck a lot. Women, minorities, LBGT folks, even the disabled to some degree, all of them get the short end of the stick on a distressingly regular basis.

They are disturbing the wa.

That's unforgivable.

^It can also suck a lot for foreigners.. Especially women, who are considered as "easy" by average japanese men and routinely harassed with little to no reaction from authorities. The mere fact of being a foreigner who stands out is "asking for it".

last edited at May 7, 2016 11:25AM

It's difficult to talk about cultures and people I've never witnessed myself and only heard about but I truly hope this is the beginning of positive attention to this issue and that the younger generations hopefully do a better job educating their children because the kids at school are just following in the footsteps of their authorities.

The irony of Japan's pop culture "anything and everything goes", compared to the conservative reality, is rather depressing.

The irony of Japan's pop culture "anything and everything goes", compared to the conservative reality, is rather depressing.

Japanese culture heavily encourages comparementalizing. Following WW II, the occupying American soldiers were shocked to find that the country that produced such savage warriors was now unfailingly polite to them. This was because of an attitude that different situations call for considerably different responses, and there's not all that much carry-over between them. When at war you do war things. When at peace you do peace things. Pop culture is where you do pop culture things, and those are different from the things in the rest of a person's life.

last edited at May 7, 2016 12:51PM

Nya-chan posted:

They are disturbing the wa.

That's unforgivable.

^It can also suck a lot for foreigners.. Especially women, who are considered as "easy" by average japanese men and routinely harassed with little to no reaction from authorities. The mere fact of being a foreigner who stands out is "asking for it".

Well it's not just foreigners. The old saying "the nail that sicks up is hammered down" applies.

gwennie-chan posted:

Well it's not just foreigners. The old saying "the nail that sticks out is hammered down" applies.

FTFY

Also I'm sure it was even quoted in this article.

last edited at May 7, 2016 2:01PM

gwennie-chan posted:

Well it's not just foreigners. The old saying "the nail that sticks out is hammered down" applies.

FTFY

Also I'm sure it was even quoted in this article.

And in this case, the proverbial nail would be the minor missquote? ;D

Technically the saying is 出る杭は打たれる, which uses the word "stake", not "nail", so being nitpicky over the English version of it seems really pointless.

Ropponmatsu posted:

gwennie-chan posted:

Well it's not just foreigners. The old saying "the nail that sticks out is hammered down" applies.

FTFY

Also I'm sure it was even quoted in this article.

And in this case, the proverbial nail would be the minor missquote? ;D

Well most japanese proverbs would sound weird directly translated and they usually have a english equivalent. I guess since there is phrase "nail it" using nail instead of stake sounds more intuitive for english speakers.

Especially since there is a saying "let's raise the stakes" which is exact opposing of hammering stakes down.

last edited at May 7, 2016 2:25PM

At this point, I'm unsure if we're discussing grammar, translations, or proverbs... I do think there was some human rights issue being discussed as well... ;x

Ropponmatsu posted:

At this point, I'm unsure if we're discussing grammar, translations, or proverbs... I do think there was some human rights issue being discussed as well... ;x

You started it.

moguTL

Technically the saying is 出る杭は打たれる, which uses the word "stake", not "nail", so being nitpicky over the English version of it seems really pointless.

I don't know, according to Wikiquote even japanese says that "stake" is incorrect.

出る杭は打たれる
deru kui wa utareru
Translation: The stake that sticks out gets hammered down.
Note: While kui (stake) is sometimes used in place of kugi (nail) some purists point to the incongruity of using "kui" since, in traditional Japanese post and beam house construction, it is physically impossible to hammer a stake flush with the wood, and a stake in the ground would have no structural function.

Maybe I'm just mixing it up, but isn't this proverb also related to the For Want of a Nail proverb?

Ropponmatsu

At this point, I'm unsure if we're discussing grammar, translations, or proverbs... I do think there was some human rights issue being discussed as well... ;x

Why can't we do both?

But really, this makes me remember some otakus with who I talked sometimes in the past, who didn't know shit about japan except some of the good things of it's culture, they thought and acted as if it was some kind of paradise or promised land on earth for otakus, but really, socially it's a pretty fucked up place, I remember reading somewhere that Japan was one of the countries with the least cases of rape, but just like with bullying in practice a lot of it happens, but nothing happens against the criminal and a lot of times the woman is blamed because of how she's dressed, or because it was someone she knew, and a bunch of other bullshit, so a lot don't even report since it goes nowhere, not to mention when they don't do it because of shame.

last edited at May 7, 2016 3:35PM

That's what's called an export-culture. They ship out all the great stuff and bury all the creepy scary shit under it.

That's what's called an export-culture. They ship out all the great stuff and bury all the creepy scary shit under it.

I know what you mean, but I still can't resist...

I think we get a fair share of creepy shit from Japan too... ufufu ;D

moguTL

Technically the saying is 出る杭は打たれる, which uses the word "stake", not "nail", so being nitpicky over the English version of it seems really pointless.

I don't know, according to Wikiquote even japanese says that "stake" is incorrect.

出る杭は打たれる
deru kui wa utareru
Translation: The stake that sticks out gets hammered down.
Note: While kui (stake) is sometimes used in place of kugi (nail) some purists point to the incongruity of using "kui" since, in traditional Japanese post and beam house construction, it is physically impossible to hammer a stake flush with the wood, and a stake in the ground would have no structural function.

Maybe I'm just mixing it up, but isn't this proverb also related to the For Want of a Nail proverb?

My point was simply that it's kind of pointless to get that pedantic over the English for Japanese proverb that has no accepted English language equivalent, only various and differing translations of the Japanese version.

Technically the saying is 出る杭は打たれる, which uses the word "stake", not "nail", so being nitpicky over the English version of it seems really pointless.

Isn't the phrase of Chinese origin? I recall reading that a while back. Not really a unique attitude in the region.

moguTL

My point was simply that it's kind of pointless to get that pedantic over the English for Japanese proverb that has no accepted English language equivalent, only various and differing translations of the Japanese version.

Oh, okay then, sorry. o7

^It can also suck a lot for foreigners.. Especially women, who are considered as "easy" by average japanese men and routinely harassed with little to no reaction from authorities. The mere fact of being a foreigner who stands out is "asking for it".

In my experience when I visited Japan over the last few years, I have found that most of the time I am a foreigner first; and only then, as a far distant second, a woman. Admittedly, I am just north of 5.9 (1.76), and while my build is quite slender by European standards, I guess may seem a bit intimidating to your average Japanese person. Basically never had any issues with harassment in Japan, but realise that my experience is far from the typical daily interaction of Japanese women in particular.

The HRW report is quite interesting, and raises the question of how a highly conforming society can adapt to accommodate minorities, which are by definition alien to its enforced harmony. The bitter irony is that Japan has historically had a relatively open relationship with LGBT matters, but the more they opened themselves to the west, the more restrictive their perspective has become (India is another quite sad example in this space).

Having spent some time in Korea as well, I cannot help but suddenly see Japan as downright progressive in comparison. :p

The bitter irony is that Japan has historically had a relatively open relationship with LGBT matters, but the more they opened themselves to the west, the more restrictive their perspective has become

What do you mean by that? :O

Bullying in general is famously widespread in Japanese schools and credited for at least part of the high youth suicide rate. It's generally a big issue that's not effectively dealt with, even beyond LGBT youth.

Unless the stats have changed significantly in the past, the youth suicide rate in Japan is much lower than in USA and Canada.

(Higher than in France, though. Lower levels of drug use and less access to firearms might be driving this.)

^It can also suck a lot for foreigners.. Especially women, who are considered as "easy" by average japanese men and routinely harassed with little to no reaction from authorities. The mere fact of being a foreigner who stands out is "asking for it".

...I think you're confusing Japan with Egypt? Japanese men tend to intimidated by (white) foreign women.