patriachy...patriachy... it's a good matriachy dominates the west nowadays.

But Class S is blatantly saying that teen girls don't have real feelings or emotions for each other, and any romantic inclinations they have are false and temporary. It's an idealized insult writ large, based on a homophobic society finding a way to explain away girls finding each other attractive.

You bring up Spring, Summer, Fall Winter as being influenced by such tropes, but neglect to mention it blatantly states that those tropes are generally bullshit. Hanjuku Joshi too, written by an actual bisexual woman, also blows away "Class S" by spending the whole thing stressing that those romantic feelings are real and both couples are real, valid couples and won't just forget about it after they're adults out in society.

Het couples in stories set in high school don't get that nonsense, and I don't see any stories at all saying their feelings aren't real and they're some in sort of de-sexed in between state. But gay girls do. It seems pretty obvious why.

^Another manga that kinda played with/subverted the Class S genre was Secret of the Princess, if I remeber correctly. I really liked it for that.

Also, from the wikipedia entry of Nobuko Yoshiya, one of the more influential Class S authors, apparently:

Yoshiya's stories were considered "respectable" texts, suitable for consumption by girls and women of all ages, as the lesbian attachments are depicted as emotionally intense yet platonic relationships, destined to be curtailed by graduation from school, marriage, and/or death. This can be explained in part by the contemporary understanding that same-sex love was a transitory and "normal" part of female development leading into heterosexuality and motherhood.

Her stories of dosei-ai (same-sex love) and of female friendships had a direct influence on later Shōjo manga. In particular, her works often fall in line with the Class S genre, which depict lesbian attachments as emotionally intense yet platonic relationships, destined to be curtailed by marriage, school, or death.

Now I don't know how accurate that discription is, but that's like, literally everything that I don't want to see in yuri.

Well I don't really care if Class S is part of Yuri or not, if calling it Yuri bait is wrong or not, the fact is that the concept of Class S itself is complete bullshit, it's basically a glorified homophobic story to teach girls they're not gay and marrying a man is their only happiness, so fuck shit like Class S, they might have historic and literally value but besides that they're worthless piece of shit that shouldn't have place in our modern society, same for arranged marriage that a lot of countries still do, I really hate those two things, sigh...

Talking about homophobic, does Russia still put gay people in places to "cure" them? I have the impression they still do, sigh...

last edited at Dec 13, 2015 1:48PM

most country still criminalized homosexuality.

True, sometimes I forget that, sigh, I remembered that they also made a law in Russia that only married couples can adopt and they need to prove they're straight too, I wonder how they do that...

But Class S is blatantly saying that teen girls don't have real feelings or emotions for each other, and any romantic inclinations they have are false and temporary. It's an idealized insult writ large, based on a homophobic society finding a way to explain away girls finding each other attractive.

As OriginalGengar said, Nobuko Yoshiya was the most influential class S author with some of her works were autobiographical. Interestingly, she lived her whole life with her female lover, until her death at 77.
So yeah, that kind of feelings isn't real… or maybe not.

As I said, class S is profoundly interlinked with the idea of the “shōjo”, which is, as explained in the study I've linked before:

As indicated by several critics, such as John Treat (1993: 364), Tomoko Aoyama (2005: 53), and Sharalyn Orbaugh (2002: 458), the shōjo identity has a significant place in Japanese gender discourse, in that it appears to approach the notion of an asexual, kawaii being. Treat (1993) emphasizes that a distinction can be drawn between shōjo and women, precisely because the primary and unique signifier of shōjo identity depends on its representation in terms of a lack of sexual fecundity. Thus, since the concept of shōjo does not possess binary gender implications, it escapes complicity with any reaffirmation of the master social narrative of gender determination—e.g. the vaginal woman. In this regard, shōjo identity should be discussed as a specific form of cultural discourse, which presents the ideological possibility of escape from patriarchal heterosexual structures.

At the time of Nobuko Yoshiya, being a “shōjo” was a temporary situation in general, there were some exception, like Yoshiya, and the Modern Girls in general, and some actresses of Takarazuka. But in general it was temporary, limited to childhood and adolescence due to social contraints.
Today, it's more easy to stay shōjo while adult.

There is a thing to understand: that was the patriarchal society which isolated the girls and encouraged (at first, they quickly discouraged it afterward) the class S system. But the girls themselves reinvested it, like did Yoshiya, some Modern Girls continued the practice after the school too, and there were a significant amount of suicides, marking the fact that those girls really loved each other and didn't wanted to be married.
The situation is far more complex than what you say. With two faces; what the patriarchal system wanted (the "phase love") and what the girls actually did. What you say is simply neglecting what the girls/women did at that time just to conserve the idea of the patriarchal system, which as I said, quickly discouraged it afterward because they were losing control on it. The practice (and the stories) of class S became illegal by the government by 1937. (Takarazuka theater has a similar story, with a very patriarchal objective at first, but which quickly mutated in a more queer institution.)

This idea of "staying shōjo" is what we found in Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the "immature women", it's the normal evolution of the class S tropes, now that women can more easily escape heterosexual marriage. Many class S stories had this idea too, of wanting to stay shōjo forever, but between the social context and the censorship, well, that's ended in suicide-type bad ending.
But if you prefer a full-fledged class S and not things like Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the grandma at the end of the second season of Marimite shows that class S relationship aren't false at all, because she is still in love with her class S lover from school.

This idea of "staying shōjo" is what we found in Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the "immature women", it's the normal evolution of the class S tropes, now that women can more easily escape heterosexual marriage. Many class S stories had this idea too, of wanting to stay shōjo forever, but between the social context and the censorship, well, that's ended in suicide-type bad ending.

Wait, have you read Hanjuku Joshi? That's not what it says at all.

This idea of "staying shōjo" is what we found in Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the "immature women", it's the normal evolution of the class S tropes, now that women can more easily escape heterosexual marriage. Many class S stories had this idea too, of wanting to stay shōjo forever, but between the social context and the censorship, well, that's ended in suicide-type bad ending.

Wait, have you read Hanjuku Joshi? That's not what it says at all.

I dunno, the title of Hanjuku Joshi means “immature women”. That's also the critics of Hanashima at the beginning, saying that Yae and Chitose were immatures for loving each other. The story convey the message that it's fine to stay “immature” (loving each other).
(But it's possible that I over-interpret the story.)

This idea of “immature” is linked to the “shōjo”. As you said, homosexuality between girls is mainly considered as a phase in Japan, a sign of “immaturity”.
The identity of “shōjo” has many characteristics, and “being homosexual” is one of these.

That's why I consider this story as a continuation of class S, as an evolution if you prefer. And that evolution was foreshadowed by Yaneura no Nishojo.
You said that Morishima Akiko is bisexual. I said that "yuri absorbed the lesbian stuffs" (in the occidental meaning of “lesbian”). The modern Japenese homosexuality isn't only influenced by our western standards, but is also influenced by the past homosexuality in Japan, from the pre-Meiji period, and –for the lesbian– from the class S too.

So yeah. You can call that “subverting the class S”, for me it's simply a continuation, an evolution. As the class S system influenced modern lesbianism. It's not for nothing that Yoshiya is considered a “pioneer in Japanese lesbian literature”. Because you can't separate the two.

This idea of "staying shōjo" is what we found in Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the "immature women", it's the normal evolution of the class S tropes, now that women can more easily escape heterosexual marriage. Many class S stories had this idea too, of wanting to stay shōjo forever, but between the social context and the censorship, well, that's ended in suicide-type bad ending.

Wait, have you read Hanjuku Joshi? That's not what it says at all.

I dunno, the title of Hanjuku Joshi means “immature women”. That's also the critics of Hanashima at the beginning, saying that Yae and Chitose were immatures for loving each other. The story convey the message that it's fine to stay “immature” (loving each other).

Yes, and it's heavily underlined that she's wrong! And in fact she says that because she's denying her own feelings for the woman she's really in love with by attempting to go out with guys instead which turns out to be futile. The whole point is that the feelings these two couples are experiencing are not transient or a result of youth, but the real, honest thing.

This idea of “immature” is linked to the “shōjo”. As you said, homosexuality between girls is mainly considered as a phase in Japan, a sign of “immaturity”.
The identity of “shōjo” has many characteristics, and “being homosexual” is one of these.

This is not supported by the actual story.

That's why I consider this story as a continuation of class S, as an evolution if you prefer. And that evolution was foreshadowed by Yaneura no Nishojo.

Hanjuku Joshi, if anything, is a denial of Class S. Not an evolution or continuation of it. It's blatantly stating that these two couples actually are lesbian. Lines like "Even if you are a girl. Even though you are a girl. Because you are a girl," are an outright denial that the love between them is despite them both being girls. It's flatly stating that they are both attracted to each other in the lesbian sense.

You said that Morishima Akiko is bisexual. I said that "yuri absorbed the lesbian stuffs" (in the occidental meaning of “lesbian”). The modern Japenese homosexuality isn't only influenced by our western standards, but is also influenced by the past homosexuality in Japan, from the pre-Meiji period, and –for the lesbian– from the class S too.

Yes, lesbians in a culture can be affected by homophobic tropes from the culture they live in, same as anybody else in that culture. I don't think anyone would deny that.

So I'm not saying that Class S didn't influence yuri or anything but I think rather than what you see as an evolution of Class S, I see more as an evolution of yuri away from Class S.

And we're basically agreeing that Class S is rooted in antiquated views on sexuality, aren't we?

Edit:
Thanks for that Nez,. Haven't read that manga in a long time so I couldn't really comment on it with actual examples but I fully agree with you.

last edited at Dec 13, 2015 3:46PM

So I'm not saying that Class S didn't influence yuri or anything but I think rather than what you see as an evolution of Class S, I see more as an evolution of yuri away from Class S.

And we're basically agreeing that Class S is rooted in antiquated views on sexuality, aren't we?

Edit:
Thanks for that Nez,. Haven't read that manga in a long time so I couldn't really comment on it with actual examples but I fully agree with you.

I've read it so many times I think it's imprinted on my DNA.

This idea of “immature” is linked to the “shōjo”. As you said, homosexuality between girls is mainly considered as a phase in Japan, a sign of “immaturity”.
The identity of “shōjo” has many characteristics, and “being homosexual” is one of these.

This is not supported by the actual story.

Because here, I wasn't speaking about the story, but what is a “shōjo” in the Japanese gender studies.
The shōjo were created by the patriarchy as “children” (“immature”) even if they were sexually mature. There is an idea of “purity” behind it. The shōjo quickly developed homosexuality, and thus it became a characteristics of shōjo. (And interestingly enough, in Japanese Buddhism during the pre-Meiji period, homosexual relationship were encouraged because it was considered as “pure”, unlike the heterosexual relationship.)

That's why “female homosexuality” and "immaturity” are linked in the Japanese view.

That's why I consider this story as a continuation of class S, as an evolution if you prefer. And that evolution was foreshadowed by Yaneura no Nishojo.

Hanjuku Joshi, if anything, is a denial of Class S. Not an evolution or continuation of it. It's blatantly stating that these two couples actually are lesbian. Lines like "Even if you are a girl. Even though you are a girl. Because you are a girl," are an outright denial that the love between them is despite them both being girls. It's flatly stating that they are both attracted to each other in the lesbian sense.

Yes, and what is the ideal partner of a shōjo? Another shōjo, and it's better if it's an “otokoyaku” BTW, a “tomboy”. That's also supported by the Japanese gender studies. It explains the success of Takarazuka among women BTW. With Takarazuka, women indulge themselves to escape the heterosexual life and rebecoming a shōjo the time of a play, and they idealize the otokoyaku actress (their ideal partner), which are still considered as “shōjo” even if they are 30 or more.

Yes, and it's heavily underlined that she's wrong! And in fact she says that because she's denying her own feelings for the woman she's really in love with by attempting to go out with guys instead which turns out to be futile. The whole point is that the feelings these two couples are experiencing are not transient or a result of youth, but the real, honest thing.

So yes, the ideal partner for a shōjo is another shōjo, men are futile for them. Isn't Yoshiya said “Husband are useless”?
Hey, in class S stories, the male characters were usually depicted as evil beings, not as the "ideal partner".

While full-fledged class S like Marimite (the grandma character), Yaneura no Nishojo, or any class S which end in a suicide say blatantly that the love between shōjo isn't transient or result of youth too, but is a true and ideal love (because you don't kill yourself if you're thinking that your feelings are “false”).
I think our point of disagreement is here, while you consider the class S sentiments are “transitory” or even “false”, I consider them are “true”, because of what I see in certain class S works.

So, in Hanjuku Joshi we find the idea of “immaturity” (it's in the title) and thus shōjo. We also find the futility of men and the fact that shōjo are the ideal partner for a shōjo, and in bonus we even find a takarazukian couple with Yae the “musumeyaku” (hyper-feminine girl) and Chitose the “otokoyaku” (the “Girl Prince”, or tomboy).
Nothing that contradict the class S works from the past.
It's just that you don't have the "sisters stuffs", and that you have a good ending.

I can totally place Hanjuku Joshi in the continuity of the rest of the “shōjo culture” and thus class S. I won't say that for the Morishima Akiko's other works BTW (at least the others I read, I didn't read the totality of her works).
But as I said, I can over-interpret this story.

And we're basically agreeing that Class S is rooted in antiquated views on sexuality, aren't we?

It's depends of what you call “class S”. The works of Yoshiya and co were dependent of the social context in Japan at that time. So yes, they are totally from an other age.
The issue is in works like Strawberry Panic, where in the anime we simply don't know what will happens of the girls after their graduation. We simply tend to assume that they will marry some random men because of what we find in the old class S works from a begone age. We tend to think as Nezchan, that those romances are limited to the adolescence and then poof, no more.

While some works, which you present as a "subversion of the class S" say that those feelings can still be here after the adolescence. And thus we arrive here:

I think rather than what you see as an evolution of Class S, I see more as an evolution of yuri away from Class S.

And while I can't disagree with you, I can't disagree with me too. Like it's the same thing, but view from two different (but valid) points of view.

Hey, maybe I'm reading too much of studies about yuri/shōjo/others. There is a tons of queer theories inside it, and maybe I can't see the boundaries because of that. Some says that queer theories tend to be irrelevant because they ignore boundaries a little too much.

Yeah, perhaps it's better like that: in fact, I'm lost. :D

last edited at Dec 13, 2015 4:58PM

I don't remember anyone mentioning it, but in case someone don't know, now we're going to have Smile Precure on Netflix, except they completely changed it like it was done to Sailor Moon, I doubt we're going to have lesbian cousins this time though...

I don't remember anyone mentioning it, but in case someone don't know, now we're going to have Smile Precure on Netflix, except they completely changed it like it was done to Sailor Moon, I doubt we're going to have lesbian cousins this time though...

Yeah, they totally went Saban/Harmony Gold on it. Which is a bit crappy for fans of the series I imagine.

netflix original, lol

last edited at Dec 18, 2015 12:51PM

Yeah, they totally went Saban/Harmony Gold on it. Which is a bit crappy for fans of the series I imagine.

I made a quick search and it actually is made by Saban, them and Harmony are the only ones who do this kind of thing?

netflix original, lol

Well, they made so many changes that it's pretty much "original" now, at least it's not Smile Precure anymore, they also cut 8 episodes aparently.

Yeah, they totally went Saban/Harmony Gold on it. Which is a bit crappy for fans of the series I imagine.

I made a quick search and it actually is made by Saban, them and Harmony are the only ones who do this kind of thing?

They're the ones famous for it. Saban did it to Sailor Moon and the assorted sentai shows that became Power Rangers. Harmony Gold did it considerably worse to Macross.

netflix original, lol

Well, they made so many changes that it's pretty much "original" now, at least it's not Smile Precure anymore, they also cut 8 episodes aparently.

Yeah, butchering someone else's work is real "original".

But then, that's what they did to Power Rangers, right?

so many changes

They pretty much just changed the names, right?

Yeah, butchering someone else's work is real "original".

But then, that's what they did to Power Rangers, right?

Well that's how things work sometimes, don't have talent to create something original? Buy the rights of something made in another country, "adapt" as much as you can to be different from the original version, if in your country pretty much no one knows how it really is then it's done, you have a "original" work to sell.

They pretty much just changed the names, right?

It seens they made a lot more changes, there's not much information so only when they release to know how much really changed, aaaaand I didn't really read or search much about it so maybe it's not bad as I say, I just looked at some comments about it, ooops...

Did they made a lot of changes in Sailor Moon or was basically names and lesbian cousins?

Just watched the new diamond is unbreakable preview, date: april 2016!

Just watched the new diamond is unbreakable preview, date: april 2016!

Time has come for JoJo to save anime once again!

Nez Note

As some of you have probably noticed, we have a new dropdown on the main forum page with categories that you can separate out popular series like Euphonium or whatever it happens to be into their own threads. Think of it as a bit more elbow room.

Don't worry though, this thread isn't going anywhere. Think of it as having more options, without necessarily cluttering things up.

Is it true that Aldnoah.Zero had a pretty shitty ending? Gen Urobuchi works tend to have pretty divisive endings, but from what I read in this case it was really bad because it had an asspull, supposedly had a new character in last minute just for drama and to prevent main characters ship.

Aldnoah.Zero was pretty shitty in general, really. And, yeah, I think that happened (only watched the first season)

Urobuchi didn't have much to do with the series though. He was involved with the early parts of planning and wrote the first three episodes, but the bulk of it was written by other people. Didn't even create the main character