IIRC lesbianism among schoolgirls is not frowned upon, but lesbian relationship among adults is seen as immature in Japan. Not hated, just something you grow out of.
Is there someone in the know (been to Japan or talked to people) who knows what they think about incest?

I have family in Japan and visit pretty frequently. Incest isn't accepted any more than it is in America, but since it's a tightly-knit society, very genetically pure, that was fairly isolated up until WWII, the idea of falling in love with a cousin or half-sibling often finds its way into literature and other media. Actually, marrying a cousin isn't seen as that scandalous, but siblings would be out of the question, even if it's fairly prevalent as an erotic fantasy.

But Citrus dodges that problem with them being step siblings, and if this were real life, once Yuzu and Mei got out of their house as adults, the sibling obstacle would basically be a non-issue. Like you mentioned, lesbianism would be more of a problem than the pseudo-sibling thing, unless they were truly blood relatives. Your perception is pretty accurate -- it's seen as irresponsible and childish, not morally wrong per se.

So at least Citrus is marginally more realistic than, say, the Candy Boy ONA that depicts twin sisters in a fairly open, care-free romance. But then again, that was fluff directed and written by a male, mostly for a male target audience.

On a related topic, marriage is at an all-time low while divorce is at an all-time high. Approximately half of all Japanese women under 30 have no plans to marry and don't know if they ever will. It's so serious that the government has had to address it as a societal crisis, but there's not much the government can do to control it. Homosexuality has also been on a rapid incline for both males and females, but same-sex marriage has not been legalized.

last edited at May 28, 2015 12:51PM

Thanks Kadamon!

This may go without saying, but the West's biggest issue with homosexuality is religion, since all of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) condemn it. In Japan, it's more of a sociological issue because they're focused on contributing to society in a well-oiled business machine -- graduate high school, attend a good college and make your way up the corporate chain (for men), or stay at home and support your hard-working salaryman (for women). It's all about structure and conforming to those standards. Strong professional women may be idealized a bit more now, but they're still not quite as accepted as they are in the West.

As far as religion goes in Japan, Buddhism is technically a religion without an almighty "God", and it's more about traditional ceremony and philosophy than anything else. Homosexuality has been a prevalent part of Japanese society that goes back to male aids to samurai (or sometimes fellow samurai) offering them physical companionship as a part of the same social class. The same happened between geishas and aids to princesses and such. And of course, males often portrayed women in stage plays, making themselves objects of desire for the viewing public.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Point is, homosexuality on a superficial level is accepted, but it doesn't preclude one's responsibility to society. As much as I love Japanese culture, modern society is admittedly materialistic and superficial, and many relationships form out of convenience or personal advancement. Genuine love seems surprisingly rare, and that suppression makes genres like yuri much more alluring to Japanese audiences.

last edited at May 28, 2015 1:59PM

Holy goddess Madoka O.O
So many comments lmao be record here in Dynasty scans lmao

I dissagree on the accepting thing. Maybe their friends would, but their familly no.

I was suggesting that their family doesn't need to know, at least not that they're explicitly "dating". It would be pretty easy to hide, considering their mom even gave them a bed to sleep in together. From her perspective, she'd just be happy that her two daughters were getting along so well. But knowing how they've behaved so far, keeping the intimacy behind closed doors is probably easier said than done...

This may go without saying, but the West's biggest issue with homosexuality is religion, since all of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) condemn it. In Japan, it's more of a sociological issue...

Well, considering the fact that Christians invaded Japan as well as many other nations, Shinto and Buddhism has adopted many of the Christian ideas. Before they invaded Japan, homosexuality was something that was accepted to be natural, and not a big deal. Another reason Japan finds it hard to accept gays is that under-population there is really, really bad.Even though some understand that the reason Japan is under-populated is because the men are at work all day, and women are expected to keep house, resulting in less happy time, people still blame gay people.

This may go without saying, but the West's biggest issue with homosexuality is religion, since all of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) condemn it. In Japan, it's more of a sociological issue...

Well, considering the fact that Christians invaded Japan as well as many other nations, Shinto and Buddhism has adopted many of the Christian ideas. Before they invaded Japan, homosexuality was something that was accepted to be natural, and not a big deal. Another reason Japan finds it hard to accept gays is that under-population there is really, really bad.Even though some understand that the reason Japan is under-populated is because the men are at work all day, and women are expected to keep house, resulting in less happy time, people still blame gay people.

It's true that many Japanese people have been influenced by western religion, but I wouldn't say that Buddhism has adopted its condemnation of homosexuality at all. Even modern Buddhism has practically nothing to say about it, period.

And Japan doesn't exactly have an "underpopulation" problem; they have a problem with an AGING population. Elderly people are living much longer due to improved health care, while (as I mentioned earlier) marriage and birth rates are down. The actual population hasn't gotten smaller, just older on average, and that lends to a different set of issues, not the least of which is a massive increase in health care costs. That can throw off economic balance, especially since it pertains to a retired population no longer in the revenue-generating workplace.

last edited at May 28, 2015 3:14PM

Back on the topic of Citrus, I've heard quite a few people here say that the drama is poorly written, repetitive, or absurd while still admitting that the fantastic art and twisted characters compell them to keep reading (or something like that).

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

last edited at May 28, 2015 3:40PM

I dissagree on the accepting thing. Maybe their friends would, but their familly no.

I was suggesting that their family doesn't need to know, at least not that they're explicitly "dating". It would be pretty easy to hide, considering their mom even gave them a bed to sleep in together. From her perspective, she'd just be happy that her two daughters were getting along so well. But knowing how they've behaved so far, keeping the intimacy behind closed doors is probably easier said than done...

Yeah, that will happen in the beggining. But if they have a long term relationship there is no chance people won't eventually find out. And even if they can still hide it, for let's say 2 years, there maybe come a point when they will feel fed up hiding all time and want to reveal it by themselves. Keeping the issue hidden doesn't resolve things.

Yeah, that will happen in the beggining. But if they have a long term relationship there is no chance people won't eventually find out. And even if they can still hide it, for let's say 2 years, there maybe come a point when they will feel fed up hiding all time and want to reveal it by themselves. Keeping the issue hidden doesn't resolve things.

I totally agree that's how it would work for the long run in real life, just not within the span of this manga's story. But all of it's pure speculation anyway. Who knows?! In volume 5, their mom could walk in on them in the bedroom, and we really would be dealing with the troubles you describe.

last edited at May 28, 2015 3:57PM

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

I don't think I really compare any series. My main criticism of Citrus is that the melodrama just piles up -- I don't like melodrama in general. I'll admit that I don't know why I keep reading it (I'm certainly much less entusiastic about it, though). Maybe I'm more masochistic than I thought. Also: Harumin.
I have many favorites; if we are talking about drama, I guess I'll say Pieta and Kimi Koi Limit? I also really like Kissing Mars. I guess I tend to prefer one-shots though -- I really like short forms of storytelling.

last edited at May 28, 2015 4:06PM

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

Pieta for sure. Love My Life for entirely different reasons. Two By This Side, Three By the Other Side is an amazing Touhou piece.

This might be a good topic to make its own separate post, see what other people's favourite "serious" yuri is, outside of just Citrus readers (and me, who doesn't actually read it).

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

Pieta for sure. Love My Life for entirely different reasons. Two By This Side, Three By the Other Side is an amazing Touhou piece.

This might be a good topic to make its own separate post, see what other people's favourite "serious" yuri is, outside of just Citrus readers (and me, who doesn't actually read it).

Done, just created the new thread, as I'm very interested to hear other recommendations.

Yeah, that will happen in the beggining. But if they have a long term relationship there is no chance people won't eventually find out. And even if they can still hide it, for let's say 2 years, there maybe come a point when they will feel fed up hiding all time and want to reveal it by themselves. Keeping the issue hidden doesn't resolve things.

I totally agree that's how it would work for the long run in real life, just not within the span of this manga's story. But all of it's pure speculation anyway. Who knows?! In volume 5, their mom could walk in on them in the bedroom, and we really would be dealing with the troubles you describe.

Lol true. Only possibility short term is that she she walks on them. But at least that means we get some action XD
This is future drama, but that was my point. I hope that Citrus gets more chapters/volumes than expected, and maybe I was speculating what could happen then (very long term i know).

To be honest I first started reading Citrus because the art is amazing, and of course Mei and yuzu are..well good looking, lol. XD But yea the manga is weak plot-wise. Some times it feels forced drama. On the other hand, I think author can really express their feelings great by drawing them. But this is the difference between manga and just books. You also have something to look at, rather than just imagining it. And most probably something appealing too.
There might be some better yuri mangas out there considering the story, drama and consistency, but art is kinda bad in some of them(well in most of them imo).
I would prefer reading those mangas as a plain book and picturing myself the things unfolding rather than having the art ruin it for me. But that's just personal, although i think that's (one of) the reason that Citrus is popular, despite its weak spots in plot. It's really well drawn. And when people read manga (not books) they usually want to see something visually stimulating too.

Edit: Search up for Nanzaki Iku (regarding the yuri mangas). Art is just 10/10

last edited at May 28, 2015 4:27PM

I would prefer reading those mangas as a plain book and picturing myself the things unfolding rather than having the art ruin it for me. But that's just personal, although i think that's (one of) the reason that Citrus is popular, despite its weak spots in plot. It's really well drawn. And when people read manga (not books) they usually want to see something visually stimulating too.

All true, but don't get me wrong... For all of my attempts at objective critique and cultural analysis in this thread, I hold Citrus in higher esteem than most. It just fits my personal taste very very well.

I hold Citrus high too. There are the flaws that have been mentioned before but after that it comes down to personal taste if you also don't care and just enjoy the manga. This is why i was hoping for long term drama (= longer manga lol)
Plus i think some people like to complain just for the shake of it lol

last edited at May 28, 2015 4:36PM

I don't think the melodrama on Citrus is badly done. Within the context of the setting everything fits perfectly, we're talking about teenagers riding high on hormones and being over melodramatic for anything and everything. Characters suddenly showing up is also true within the conext, god knows I've met tons of great, bad and memorable people through random gatherings or simply hanging out at my favorite shop.

Art is pretty and easy to the eye although very stilized so I don't have it in such a high regard as many other people has.

If there's a critic to be done to Citrus' plot is how the issue of the girls' parents has been handled. Mei's father is a total douche with actions that doesn't make any sense at all and are filled to the brim with plot holes while Yuzu's mother is such an airhead that well, is kind of hard to believe she's a proper adult.

Mei's father is a total douche with actions that doesn't make any sense at all and are filled to the brim with plot holes

Hey, middle life crisis

Who else thinks Saboru Uta is just more comfortable with shorts, and is tired with Citrus?

last edited at May 29, 2015 8:43AM

now the story is just running in circle

Mei's father is a total douche with actions that doesn't make any sense at all and are filled to the brim with plot holes

Hey, middle life crisis

Who else thinks Saboru Uta is just more comfortable with shorts, and is tired with Citrus?

Shorts like what? I've read one by her, the hmm "partners",she did some art for these others,but I don't think I've seen any other title done and drawn by her.

Maybe she intented to finish the whole thing before the twins or maybe in her mind she said "Tis gonna be epiic,I'll make it last as long as I can!!" I hope she will give us at least some happy Yuzu/Mei moments,and for crying out lout let'em fuck already!!!!

I keep reading cos the art is I think the one I've liked the best in manga,along with Kurogane Ken's and Amano Shuninta in most of her works <3

wow, chapter 16. really?

NO MORE LOVE TRIANGLES PLEASE

Awesome posts Kadamon!

As for Citrus... I think the mother and father might not be so adverse to their relationship to be honest. Obviously many others would be questioning it (except maybe Harumin?).

Kadamon WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN THIS ENTIRE THREAD'S LIFE.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Point is, homosexuality on a superficial level is accepted, but it doesn't preclude one's responsibility to society. As much as I love Japanese culture, modern society is admittedly materialistic and superficial, and many relationships form out of convenience or personal advancement. Genuine love seems surprisingly rare, and that suppression makes genres like yuri much more alluring to Japanese audiences.

I can relate to this because I'm much in the same boat. I love Japanese traditions and styles of entertainment (beyond just anime...their film styles, their art, their poetry, everything) but the spoiler of it all is that very traditionalist mindset. I live in the "south" (quotes because I live in an area that is not southern at all...but drive 15 minutes out of the suburbs and you get confederate flags on posts and unregistered "hunting" shotguns in the trunks) and it's shocking how similar the comparisons are. If you fit into what is 'acceptable' for the culture, it's amazing (a lot of fun and friendliness down here), but if you don't...oof. Not fun times. Luckily I don't have to deal with it and I'm not anything inherently disliked by the culture--so I can go paintballin' way out there without any issues.

KYAAAA KYAAA KYAAA!!!!

I WAS WAITIN' SO LONG !!!! <3<33