Is there a particular reason I never hear about Utena any more? Back in 1999, it was the first thing to cross people's lips when you mentioned yuri.

Here's a question I've often pondered and would like to hear opinions on -- Do you believe it's possible for a male author to write heartfelt yuri? Or will that almost always degenerate into fan service and/or feel insincere by nature? It's obvious that most of the critical favorites are penned by females.

Is possible and we've seen happen already with Higashiyama Shou and his work on both Prism and Stretch.

Good answer. I haven't read Prism yet and didn't know the author was male.

Here's a question I've often pondered and would like to hear opinions on -- Do you believe it's possible for a male author to write heartfelt yuri? Or will that almost always degenerate into fan service and/or feel insincere by nature? It's obvious that most of the critical favorites are penned by females.

Well, the discussion in the Citrus thread seemed to have gone into the Drama direction and what series had better written drama and what-not, if we're going with "what series is better than Citrus" then everyone will obviously list their personal favourites and i feel like we had this thread at least thrice

No, I'm simply stating how the thread started, and upon Nezchan's recommendation, I split it into a new topic. This is not Citrus-centric, as that's what we were separating it from.

I also changed the thread's title to be clearer.

Is "serious" simply "lack of comedy"? In that case i find myself with not much stuff to say here... I'd like to say Blank but that ain't a series so i'd go with Kimi Koi Limit i guess?
I'd also like to say Qualia The Purple but the yuri isn't the reason i like that one so much so i'll refrain from mentioning it

I'd say Blank and its follow-up Blank, Continued qualify in this case.

I personally wouldn't say comedy is out, but more stories with some depth to them even if they have comedic parts. I can't speak for Kadamon on that matter though.

By "serious" I just meant the series that really met or exceeded your personal expectations for the genre. If that includes comedy, cool.

When we started discussing this, I made reference to the fact that some posters call Citrus' writing weak or repetitive, so I wanted a frame of reference -- if Citrus is "weak", then what is "strong" from your critical perspective?

I actually love Citrus, so that's why I'd like to hear recommendations. I've personally had a hard time getting into some of the ones I tried reading, but maybe I've missed some really great yuri along the way. Who better to recommend those than the Dynasty community, right?

I would prefer reading those mangas as a plain book and picturing myself the things unfolding rather than having the art ruin it for me. But that's just personal, although i think that's (one of) the reason that Citrus is popular, despite its weak spots in plot. It's really well drawn. And when people read manga (not books) they usually want to see something visually stimulating too.

All true, but don't get me wrong... For all of my attempts at objective critique and cultural analysis in this thread, I hold Citrus in higher esteem than most. It just fits my personal taste very very well.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

Pieta for sure. Love My Life for entirely different reasons. Two By This Side, Three By the Other Side is an amazing Touhou piece.

This might be a good topic to make its own separate post, see what other people's favourite "serious" yuri is, outside of just Citrus readers (and me, who doesn't actually read it).

Done, just created the new thread, as I'm very interested to hear other recommendations.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

Pieta for sure. Love My Life for entirely different reasons. Two By This Side, Three By the Other Side is an amazing Touhou piece.

This might be a good topic to make its own separate post, see what other people's favourite "serious" yuri is, outside of just Citrus readers (and me, who doesn't actually read it).

Well then, let's continue here...

We started this topic in the Citrus thread, but it's bigger than just one series. What are your favorite "serious" yuri series, the ones that really set your critical standards for the genre?

Yeah, that will happen in the beggining. But if they have a long term relationship there is no chance people won't eventually find out. And even if they can still hide it, for let's say 2 years, there maybe come a point when they will feel fed up hiding all time and want to reveal it by themselves. Keeping the issue hidden doesn't resolve things.

I totally agree that's how it would work for the long run in real life, just not within the span of this manga's story. But all of it's pure speculation anyway. Who knows?! In volume 5, their mom could walk in on them in the bedroom, and we really would be dealing with the troubles you describe.

last edited at May 28, 2015 3:57PM

Back on the topic of Citrus, I've heard quite a few people here say that the drama is poorly written, repetitive, or absurd while still admitting that the fantastic art and twisted characters compell them to keep reading (or something like that).

Out of curiosity, what are some of your critical favorites in the yuri genre, the ones that have set your standards for this kind of critique?

last edited at May 28, 2015 3:40PM

This may go without saying, but the West's biggest issue with homosexuality is religion, since all of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) condemn it. In Japan, it's more of a sociological issue...

Well, considering the fact that Christians invaded Japan as well as many other nations, Shinto and Buddhism has adopted many of the Christian ideas. Before they invaded Japan, homosexuality was something that was accepted to be natural, and not a big deal. Another reason Japan finds it hard to accept gays is that under-population there is really, really bad.Even though some understand that the reason Japan is under-populated is because the men are at work all day, and women are expected to keep house, resulting in less happy time, people still blame gay people.

It's true that many Japanese people have been influenced by western religion, but I wouldn't say that Buddhism has adopted its condemnation of homosexuality at all. Even modern Buddhism has practically nothing to say about it, period.

And Japan doesn't exactly have an "underpopulation" problem; they have a problem with an AGING population. Elderly people are living much longer due to improved health care, while (as I mentioned earlier) marriage and birth rates are down. The actual population hasn't gotten smaller, just older on average, and that lends to a different set of issues, not the least of which is a massive increase in health care costs. That can throw off economic balance, especially since it pertains to a retired population no longer in the revenue-generating workplace.

last edited at May 28, 2015 3:14PM

I dissagree on the accepting thing. Maybe their friends would, but their familly no.

I was suggesting that their family doesn't need to know, at least not that they're explicitly "dating". It would be pretty easy to hide, considering their mom even gave them a bed to sleep in together. From her perspective, she'd just be happy that her two daughters were getting along so well. But knowing how they've behaved so far, keeping the intimacy behind closed doors is probably easier said than done...

This may go without saying, but the West's biggest issue with homosexuality is religion, since all of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) condemn it. In Japan, it's more of a sociological issue because they're focused on contributing to society in a well-oiled business machine -- graduate high school, attend a good college and make your way up the corporate chain (for men), or stay at home and support your hard-working salaryman (for women). It's all about structure and conforming to those standards. Strong professional women may be idealized a bit more now, but they're still not quite as accepted as they are in the West.

As far as religion goes in Japan, Buddhism is technically a religion without an almighty "God", and it's more about traditional ceremony and philosophy than anything else. Homosexuality has been a prevalent part of Japanese society that goes back to male aids to samurai (or sometimes fellow samurai) offering them physical companionship as a part of the same social class. The same happened between geishas and aids to princesses and such. And of course, males often portrayed women in stage plays, making themselves objects of desire for the viewing public.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Point is, homosexuality on a superficial level is accepted, but it doesn't preclude one's responsibility to society. As much as I love Japanese culture, modern society is admittedly materialistic and superficial, and many relationships form out of convenience or personal advancement. Genuine love seems surprisingly rare, and that suppression makes genres like yuri much more alluring to Japanese audiences.

last edited at May 28, 2015 1:59PM

IIRC lesbianism among schoolgirls is not frowned upon, but lesbian relationship among adults is seen as immature in Japan. Not hated, just something you grow out of.
Is there someone in the know (been to Japan or talked to people) who knows what they think about incest?

I have family in Japan and visit pretty frequently. Incest isn't accepted any more than it is in America, but since it's a tightly-knit society, very genetically pure, that was fairly isolated up until WWII, the idea of falling in love with a cousin or half-sibling often finds its way into literature and other media. Actually, marrying a cousin isn't seen as that scandalous, but siblings would be out of the question, even if it's fairly prevalent as an erotic fantasy.

But Citrus dodges that problem with them being step siblings, and if this were real life, once Yuzu and Mei got out of their house as adults, the sibling obstacle would basically be a non-issue. Like you mentioned, lesbianism would be more of a problem than the pseudo-sibling thing, unless they were truly blood relatives. Your perception is pretty accurate -- it's seen as irresponsible and childish, not morally wrong per se.

So at least Citrus is marginally more realistic than, say, the Candy Boy ONA that depicts twin sisters in a fairly open, care-free romance. But then again, that was fluff directed and written by a male, mostly for a male target audience.

On a related topic, marriage is at an all-time low while divorce is at an all-time high. Approximately half of all Japanese women under 30 have no plans to marry and don't know if they ever will. It's so serious that the government has had to address it as a societal crisis, but there's not much the government can do to control it. Homosexuality has also been on a rapid incline for both males and females, but same-sex marriage has not been legalized.

last edited at May 28, 2015 12:51PM

I really don't think that characters accepting Mei and Yuzu as a couple is the problem, unlike most real life situations. They are in the enviable position to live together, date, or do pretty much anything short of public displays of affection without anyone thinking badly of it. They're step sisters, so being together isn't really unnatural to an observer, as long as they keep their intimacy confined to private spaces (which they haven't totally done, admittedly). As for the chairman, I'm sure Mei could've told him that she got mad and accidentally tore Yuzu's blouse open in the scuffle, which isn't entirely untrue and would put the matter to rest with him.

Argh, I put entirely too much thought into that Citrus "social RPG" idea, and now it's so vivid in my head that I really want to play something like that. Maybe it's time for another run as the female MC on Persona 3 Portable...

Moving on...

Does anyone think we'll see more of Amemiya in some sort of vengeance/blackmail twist? I rather hope not, just speculating. And what of the chairman, will we see any more of him? As it stands, it's like Saburouta wrote the men out pretty quickly, and that's probably for the best.

Again, it IS a yuri thread though, is it not?

Okay, a yuri thread then

Don't be a het troll in a yuri forum, please

Most people refer to the plot as "compelling" or "interesting" but rarely call it good writing.

Really? I always see people say the exact opposite so I'm a little suprised. Where did you get those impressions, Japan or outside of Japan?

A mix of reviews and forum posts from here, Japan, and people I personally know who are also reading it. Are you saying the people you've heard from say it's "not compelling" but that it is "good writing"?? Or are you saying that superfans act like it can do no wrong?

Is it really that popular though ? I doubt it

More than 6 and honestly, in my opinion and knowing of how Saburouta works, it would be one of the worst

Judging by the attention it got in manga shops like Animate while I was visiting Japan, reports that it has increased sales of Yuri Hime, and the fact that it's even getting multimedia like voiced PVs and a drama CD, I'd say it's gained a lot more attention than your average yuri.

But even so, I agree that Saburouta should limit the series to 6 volumes or so to keep from messing up a good thing. Most people refer to the plot as "compelling" or "interesting" but rarely call it good writing. Let's not drive it into the ground.

That's so sad man.

What's sad? The fact that it may be the most popular?

^
I know nothin' about it, but I somehow doubt Saburouta will tone down on the aaaaaangst anytime soon -- hence the "8-10, if it's not cut short". That's just my personal guess, of course.

I could live with doubling its current length at 8 volumes, but 10-12 would probably just make us mad... I want to continue my fandom into an anime or game adaptation, not dwell on overly convoluted extensions to the [currently] solid story. But I get what you're saying. And we are dealing with quite possibly the most popular yuri series of all time, so all precedents are out the window.

Keep in mind, it'll take almost another year to get 2 more volumes completed and released. Have we ever seen a pure yuri run that long?

Also, there's nothing worse than seeing an anime adaptation concluded artificially or left on a cliffhanger because the manga is still running. So for all of us hoping for an anime, wouldn't it be better to wrap up with around 6 volumes and get a truly complete anime season shortly after?

Not trying to argue, I just want to see it done right.

last edited at May 27, 2015 2:18PM