Nevri posted:

Nya-chan posted:

Rape is in the eye of the beholder.

People here project a little too much.

Ok you lost me. Are you seriously defend the blatant sexual assault? Do you have the need to negate everything or something?

You misunderstood. I'm just saying that this isn't the author's intention to talk about sexual assault or rape. In their mind, I don't even think they thought about it that way. This is a red herring.

My take of the author's intention, in this short scene, it to establish the dynamics between the two characters (broken Aoi/Fascinated Kohane) and, at the same time, dump some info about the reproductive process in that world.

People jumping up and down about rape/sexual assault are just missing the point.

last edited at May 15, 2018 5:00PM

If their families get nothing out of marrying each other then what do the families of their arranged fiances get out of marrying them? Wouldnt it be better for the fiances to marry each other?

I was being literal when I said business deals. It probably has to do with the business each family runs.

And thats why I said that I hoped it gets explained because right now it doesnt make a damn lick of sense. Whatever half a decade deal they have with their fiancees they most likely can get it together. And the fact that the manga says that its so common with the other girls that it isnt some specialized deal and instead just rich girl BS directly transferred from our reality without much thought put into it.

I'm just saying that this isn't the author's intention to talk about sexual assault or rape.

If that were remotely true then why bring up the possible results of if Aoi actually raped her? It was attempted rape used in an "engaging" way to explain reproduction but has the unintended consequences of making Aoi look like a psychopath not worthy of the readers sympathy.

last edited at May 15, 2018 1:29PM

And thats why I said that I hoped it gets explained because right now it doesnt make a damn lick of sense. Whatever half a decade deal they have with their fiancees they most likely can get it together. And the fact that the manga says that its so common with the other girls that it isnt some specialized deal and instead just rich girl BS directly transferred from our reality without much thought put into it.

There's no obvious reason to presume upper-crust "dynastic strategy" would change a lick merely because one sex got removed from the scene. It's about power and wealth and alliances, not people, and has ever been that way.

What possible result? Her getting pregnant? That would involve some tribbing and I don't think she thought for a second that the garden was the place to do that.

And the goal was not to make her appear sympathetic, but broken and, ultimately, pitiable.

The "rape attempt" was hand waved away, so it means it was not relevant, despite how much you want it to be.

I think what gives this a creepy vibe is the intense expressions for these relatively unremarkable moments

Nothing happens they just talk about flowers and trying to act like psycho but it is just empty at this point.

last edited at May 15, 2018 8:42PM

There's no obvious reason to presume upper-crust "dynastic strategy" would change a lick merely because one sex got removed from the scene. It's about power and wealth and alliances, not people, and has ever been that way.

Except with one gender removed they dont have to work so hard to get male heirs for their businesses, theyre options for possible marriage partners literally doubles because there is no restriction on gender. In todays world their fiancees dont have the option to leave the girls alone and marry each other, in this mangas world there are a lot less reasons why the girls would be forced to marry one certain person unless if was for a very specific business deal.

What possible result? Her getting pregnant? That would involve some tribbing and I don't think she thought for a second that the garden was the place to do that.

It seemed to be the right place to attack and sexually assault her so there really is no reason why it wouldnt be the place to go further.

And the goal was not to make her appear sympathetic, but broken and, ultimately, pitiable.

And it failed to do that by making her look like an unlikable psychopath who was going to rape someone over some stupid jealousy.

The "rape attempt" was hand waved away, so it means it was not relevant, despite how much you want it to be.

Or it means that its bad writing or that the characters are just really dumb. Hand waving away the elephant in the room doesnt mean its not relevant.

Except with one gender removed they dont have to work so hard to get male heirs for their businesses, theyre options for possible marriage partners literally doubles because there is no restriction on gender. In todays world their fiancees dont have the option to leave the girls alone and marry each other, in this mangas world there are a lot less reasons why the girls would be forced to marry one certain person unless if was for a very specific business deal.

All that does is simplify the calculations since you no longer need to match sexes, really. Nothing changes in the underlying dynastic logic.

It seemed more like sexual assault and verbal abuse to me, not rape. I don't think Aoi really tried to impregnate or deflower her. Felt more like a crude power play to intimidate Kohane. Maybe the garden or something different in this school is messing with their brains. :o The author already hints that something might be off.

I know people get triggered easily, but still...As someone who knows victims and almost got thrown into something nasty myself, I'd like it if people would think before they throw the word "rape" around.

Oh, so it was only a sexual assault, to assert dominance. That's totally different from rape. Man we were totally over reacting.

I was not expecting arranged marriage to show up in this manga. Maybe I should've.

Nice to see some remanents, of the old patriarchy, still survive.

Also, it really does seem like the story is heading toward an Aoi x Kohane ending at this point, but it's got a lot of work ahead of it to get there from here.

Man even in yuri, the bad boy(girl) trope, where the broken one gets the girl, is a thing. CURSE YOU BAD BOY TROPE!!! We have got to stop encouraging girls, to try and save emotionally damaged hot guys, with their love.

last edited at May 15, 2018 10:48PM

Eden no Otome ch06 has a minor error in pg 8, it was fixed https://hachimitsu-scans.blogspot.com/2018/05/let-there-be-light.html

"The truth is, I don't know what's going on with her hairstyle. LOL."

Except with one gender removed they dont have to work so hard to get male heirs for their businesses, theyre options for possible marriage partners literally doubles because there is no restriction on gender. In todays world their fiancees dont have the option to leave the girls alone and marry each other, in this mangas world there are a lot less reasons why the girls would be forced to marry one certain person unless if was for a very specific business deal.

All that does is simplify the calculations since you no longer need to match sexes, really. Nothing changes in the underlying dynastic logic.

Yes it does, matching sexes due to women being unable to inherit is a huge part of dynasty building logic. When you see this cliche in other yuri it isnt easy to deal with because the girls cant get married or produce a family, therefore to please their families they are forced to marry men. Here the two girls come from well off families and can have a family together, the only reason they cant marry each other is if their families made very specific deals.

last edited at May 16, 2018 7:01AM

Here the two girls come from well off families and can have a family together, the only reason they cant marry each other is if their families made very specific deals.

Which is specifically implied to be the case so, yeah. Reminder that just because both of their families are rich gits doesn't mean it is in those two families' strategic interests to form dynastic alliances with each other...

Here the two girls come from well off families and can have a family together, the only reason they cant marry each other is if their families made very specific deals.

Which is specifically implied to be the case so, yeah. Reminder that just because both of their families are rich gits doesn't mean it is in those two families' strategic interests to form dynastic alliances with each other...

No, its not implied at all. They dont give any explanation other than they are rich girls and rich girls are forced into arranged marriages, they dont explain why.

If both girls come from rich families I highly doubt that there is no strategic interest in joining houses. There are very few large businesses that dont have any connections to each other whatsoever, and if they dont then doing so opens them up for expansion into untapped territory or instantly gaining it where they had none before. Even modern day arranged Japanese marriages arent forced on children, they at least get a choice out of a line up of potential partners from a pool. And may I add that they can still say no, families cant legally force their kids to marry. This idea of specific deals made with specific families is out of the ordinary beyond old school lords and ladies.

last edited at May 16, 2018 7:14AM

cough cough
I'm not sure how you can read those as anything else than it being considered plenty normal for upper-class children to have no doubt strategically and politically useful arranged marriages.

Which is kind of the point. This is politics; the very biological sex of the people involved is essentially irrelevant except inasmuch it IRL places restrictions on eligible couplings. One sex being removed from the equation in this setting merely serves to simplify the calculus by removing that stumbling block.

last edited at May 16, 2018 7:23AM

cough cough
I'm not sure how you can read those as anything else than it being considered plenty normal for upper-class children to have no doubt strategically and politically useful arranged marriages.

I have no clue what you are trying to get at. Nothing in those pages says anything about why they have arranged marriages. Arranged marriages are not even brought up until the very last line.

Which is kind of the point. This is politics; the very biological sex of the people involved is essentially irrelevant except inasmuch it IRL places restrictions on eligible couplings. One sex being removed from the equation in this setting merely serves to simplify the calculus by removing that stumbling block.

The stumbling block was literally put in place because of the sexes. Daughters couldnt inherit so they would be wed into another house to form an alliance. Families of only daughters were doomed to die unless they got lucky and were able to adopt the second or third son of another house. If daughters can inherit then who gets adopted into which family? Who gets the inheritence? Its a system built around the patriarchy, remove the patriarch and the system fails.

Here we dont even know if these girls are being given to a family or their fiancees are becoming a part of theirs. Are these girls the inheriting members of their families? If so they have plenty of weight to throw around about who they get to marry.

And again, even in modern Japan arranged marriages between children is very uncommon, and the kids are allowed to say no when the day finally comes.

last edited at May 16, 2018 7:46AM

I have no clue what you are trying to get at. Nothing in those pages says anything about why they have arranged marriages. Arranged marriages are not even brought up until the very last line.

Given how the two of them talk about the whole thing, they're totally resigned to being betrothed to people other than the one they love. That's arranged marriage right in the face of it, and it's somewhat difficult to see why their families would brother with the whole thing if there weren't practical (ie. economic and strategic) reasons to. And from Sayuri's comment, plus the presumably solidly middle-class Kohane's bewilderment, we know that's something particular to and not uncommon for wealthy upper-class families.
Ie. political marriages between powerful clans.

The stumbling block was literally put in place because of the sexes. Daughters couldnt inherit so they would be wed into another house to form an alliance. Families of only daughters were doomed to die unless they got lucky and were able to adopt the second or third son of another house. If daughters can inherit then who gets adopted into which family? Who gets the inheritence? Its a system built around the patriarchy, remove the patriarch and the system fails.

You're forgetting that the marriage itself forms a certain bond between the two families. This was often the primary purpose of historical political marriages, the whole inheritance shebang often being somewhat secondary or causing problems further down the road (due to inconveniently inherited claims) - or in some contexts all but irrelevant depending on how the relevant laws and customs happened to work.
It's alliance building by the admittedly somewhat primitive but relatively effective expedient of binding the families together by means of marriage and, eventually, children. (Actual track record of those ties has been... patchy to say at least, but practical substitutes have been few and far between.)

I have no clue what you are trying to get at. Nothing in those pages says anything about why they have arranged marriages. Arranged marriages are not even brought up until the very last line.

Given how the two of them talk about the whole thing, they're totally resigned to being betrothed to people other than the one they love. That's arranged marriage right in the face of it, and it's somewhat difficult to see why their families would brother with the whole thing if there weren't practical (ie. economic and strategic) reasons to. And from Sayuri's comment, plus the presumably solidly middle-class Kohane's bewilderment, we know that's something particular to and not uncommon for wealthy upper-class families.
Ie. political marriages between powerful clans.

The stumbling block was literally put in place because of the sexes. Daughters couldnt inherit so they would be wed into another house to form an alliance. Families of only daughters were doomed to die unless they got lucky and were able to adopt the second or third son of another house. If daughters can inherit then who gets adopted into which family? Who gets the inheritence? Its a system built around the patriarchy, remove the patriarch and the system fails.

You're forgetting that the marriage itself forms a certain bond between the two families. This was often the primary purpose of historical political marriages, the whole inheritance shebang often being somewhat secondary or causing problems further down the road (due to inconveniently inherited claims) - or in some contexts all but irrelevant depending on how the relevant laws and customs happened to work.
It's alliance building by the admittedly somewhat primitive but relatively effective expedient of binding the families together by means of marriage and, eventually, children. (Actual track record of those ties has been... patchy to say at least, but practical substitutes have been few and far between.)

I think you guys are over thinking this. I'm fairly sure the author was just using the arranged marriage trope as a convenient way to create forbidden love sub plots. I don't think the author even gave, the social economic reasons behind arranged marriages, in an all women world, a single thought. Then again, I could be wrong. The author apparently came up with a surprisingly elaborate back story, for this world. Maybe the reasons, for the arranged marriages, come out during the story.

last edited at May 16, 2018 4:10PM

Yah, so far it's entirely up in the air how much importance the whole business is going to have. Is it just a background detail about those two's circumstances or something that'll pay a bigger role down the road? Iunno man - crystal ball's still in maintenance.
ʅ ( • ε • ) ʃ
Though my point was simply that there's no obvious reason to assume the disappearance of the male sex somehow automagically also poofs arranged marriages contrary to what YQ claims.

The main purpose for arranged marriage is, IMO, to tie two families together. Like, one has status and the other has money. Or both are on equal ground and want to avoid clashing. Ie, "If you can't beat them, join them". You use the created bonds as political tools. Since they can have children, the inheritance problem can be taken care of.

As for who is marrying into which family, I suppose there would be some criteria, like status or nobility. After all, for all we know, maybe that society is feudal.

That seems unlikely as feudal decentralisation meshes very poorly with the extreme complexity of modern societies and the primary root cause behind it - need for local military defense in the absence of effective protection from an overlord or central governement - isn't terribly topical in modern contexts. (Organised crime tends to have some parallels in a far smaller scale though.)

And since nowadays married couples rarely live with either party's parents anymore who marries "into" whose family is somewhat academic. (No indication that has changed in the setting, either.) In the context I'd expect them to just combine surnames, or retain their own unchanged, and so on unless there's some specific convoluted reason to do different (in which case it basically boils down to arrangements between the people and families involved).

Well, the setting is contradictory anyway. It's supposed to be "the distant future", but from what we see it looks like modern Japan to a T (first few pages of the first chapter).

So, I don't think the author went beyond a BS explanation for why there are no more men and doesn't really want to delve into what are the social and economic consequences.

The fact that there are only women is not the center of the story, it's just a plot device to make their romance "normal".

When everyone is a lesbian, no one is.

Given how the two of them talk about the whole thing, they're totally resigned to being betrothed to people other than the one they love. That's arranged marriage right in the face of it, and it's somewhat difficult to see why their families would brother with the whole thing if there weren't practical (ie. economic and strategic) reasons to. And from Sayuri's comment, plus the presumably solidly middle-class Kohane's bewilderment, we know that's something particular to and not uncommon for wealthy upper-class families.
Ie. political marriages between powerful clans.

So to sum it up literally nothing in those pages gives any actual hint for the particular reasons for their marriages. If you have to make huge assumptions then there really is no point to this.

You're forgetting that the marriage itself forms a certain bond between the two families. This was often the primary purpose of historical political marriages, the whole inheritance shebang often being somewhat secondary or causing problems further down the road (due to inconveniently inherited claims) - or in some contexts all but irrelevant depending on how the relevant laws and customs happened to work.
It's alliance building by the admittedly somewhat primitive but relatively effective expedient of binding the families together by means of marriage and, eventually, children. (Actual track record of those ties has been... patchy to say at least, but practical substitutes have been few and far between.)

And you forget that this story takes place in the future and even in modern Japan using marriages to combine families is seen as archaic. Modern day arranged marriages are almost entirely done for purely business reasons or if the the participants are getting too old to waste time dating to find a suitable partner. Now this takes place in the far future, I doubt that they regressed into inforcing feudal traditions. Even if it was about combing two families, why do these two families absolutely require a combination that they are willing to sell their daughters for? Its these important details that I need or else Im just going to roll my eyes every time the subject is brought up.

So to sum it up literally nothing in those pages gives any actual hint for the particular reasons for their marriages. If you have to make huge assumptions then there really is no point to this.

You're welcome to come up with more plausible in-universe reasons for the phenomenom to still be kicking around than good old dynastic alliance-building.
I'll wait.

And you forget that this story takes place in the future and even in modern Japan using marriages to combine families is seen as archaic. Modern day arranged marriages are almost entirely done for purely business reasons or if the the participants are getting too old to waste time dating to find a suitable partner. Now this takes place in the far future, I doubt that they regressed into inforcing feudal traditions. Even if it was about combing two families, why do these two families absolutely require a combination that they are willing to sell their daughters for? Its these important details that I need or else Im just going to roll my eyes every time the subject is brought up.

You said it yourself - "business reasons." AKA what I've been repeating ad nauseum about strategic alliances, power and wealth.

You seem to have some rather odd, if not downright naive, ideas about how powerful upper-class clans have universally operated everywhere and still do in many parts, and why.