So I guess this one will be used like in 80% of the works with sex scenes. Kinda irrelevant if you ask me. What's next? explicit consent? Where the characters sign a document (maybe even with witnesses) where they agree to have sex?
I know I'm being an as*hole here and I don't wanna get banned, just saying that even when there's no explicit consent, the characters are enjoying the experience and are agreeing to continue, otherwise they could just say no, and if the other(s) character continue with the lewd act, then yes, I agree with the rape tag being used.
Once again, I'm talking about fictional works and not real life rules ok?
My two cents.

late af for this but i think this tag is a pretty decent addition for people who might find it uncomfortable. at least you're self aware about how you're acting tho

What if one explicitly stated "no" and the other continued anyway, but only ended with, like, kiss? What should be tagged then? I guess that's not "rape", right?

Hmmm technically I think that could fall under Abuse or Dubious consent, with the latter probable being the more "helpful" tag, especially if it's not a cut-and-dried situation.

What if one explicitly stated "no" and the other continued anyway, but only ended with, like, kiss? What should be tagged then? I guess that's not "rape", right?

In reality that would often get classed as sexual assault.

^ Yeah, sorry, I mean what tag should we use for this kind of work. Of course it's sexual assault, in reality, even if it's "didn't say no but still visibly uncomfortable" should count as assault or rape. (because they didn't expressed consent either)

with the latter probable being the more "helpful" tag, especially if it's not a cut-and-dried situation.

Indeed.

last edited at Jun 18, 2025 10:16AM

So I guess this one will be used like in 80% of the works with sex scenes. Kinda irrelevant if you ask me. What's next? explicit consent? Where the characters sign a document (maybe even with witnesses) where they agree to have sex?
I know I'm being an as*hole here and I don't wanna get banned, just saying that even when there's no explicit consent, the characters are enjoying the experience and are agreeing to continue, otherwise they could just say no, and if the other(s) character continue with the lewd act, then yes, I agree with the rape tag being used.
Once again, I'm talking about fictional works and not real life rules ok?
My two cents.

You remind me of the chapelle skit about the love contract with explicit consent - admittedly a funny idea.

Dubious consent mostly is scenes where the person is implied to secretly want it or enjoy it, despite acting like they don't. More people enjoy this than people who enjoy a situation where the experience is entirely negative for the other party and they are traumatized by the experience. It's similar to consensual nonconsent roleplay, except it's not roleplay and only works out because it's fiction. Many people dislike both out and out rape and dubious consent, but many are okay with dubious consent but not out and out rape. Both would be rape or assault irl and it goes badly when someone tries to imitate a dubious consent story, which unfortunately some people do try to do.

last edited at Jun 18, 2025 8:44PM

my take on dubcon is that it also applies to situations where consent can't be given, like if the recipient is drunk, unconscious, etc, as well as the whole ambiguous "does she really want it?" stuff. dubcon and noncon as terms exist to describe sexual fantasies, so there's no reason to weigh them against real life assault. it's more about what "flavor" a given person prefers in their erotica and to distinguish that. me personally, i like both!

I think dubcon also applies to "technically consenting but unenthusiastic", like blackmail or some instances of prostitution or some instances of arranged marriage. Of course a common fantasy is starting there but becoming more enthusiastic, not so much "she secretly likes it" as "she comes to like it".

Usually "she comes to like it" fairly quickly, even if she doesn't admit it. Then we get denialism, like "It's Impossible for Two Girls to Get Together", where as we readers we know wanting money or competitiveness aren't on their own enough to explain why she keeps going back.

I would see blackmail where the person is crying (not in a BDSM themed way), traumatized, and never enjoys it to be regular rape. The lack of consent is clear. Even if the person can technically refuse, social dynamics can create a situation where a person functionally can't, like a supervisor at work. These situations make good premises for dubious consent stories, but they aren't the same thing, to me anyway.

Edit: I will concede that we could have an initially dubious situation like blackmail that turns out to be fully nonconsensual as we learn more, where the dubious consent tag could be used on a chapter basis early on. It could also simply never be clarified, for example a situation involving a side character. I have never seen a story like this, but I'm open to there being some. I would still argue the tag shouldn't be used for any established fully nonconsensual situations.

last edited at Jun 19, 2025 7:32AM

I think it's a good tag so people who are uncomfortable with the ambiguity can filter it out or be mindful of it instead of complaining about being blindsided in the comments. It's kind of obnoxious to be into this kind of thing and then have all the comments be debating the morality of consent on a work that's obviously catering to a specific BDSM fantasy that they just don't understand.

I think it's a good tag so people who are uncomfortable with the ambiguity can filter it out or be mindful of it instead of complaining about being blindsided in the comments. It's kind of obnoxious to be into this kind of thing and then have all the comments be debating the morality of consent on a work that's obviously catering to a specific BDSM fantasy that they just don't understand.

100% agreed. this happens with somno kink really often and it drives me crazy

I think dubcon also applies to "technically consenting but unenthusiastic", like blackmail or some instances of prostitution or some instances of arranged marriage.

While I agree blackmail could be count as dubcon, technically the basis of "consent" is "given willingly". If a "consent" is obtained under force, like threat of violence or emotional manipulation, it isn't "technically consented".

Oh right, I think Dubcon has also been applied to some oneshots where we just don't know the context of what's going on. Not obviously consensual BDSM, somehow doesn't feel like rape, so gets Dubcon though maybe 'Unknown consent' would be more precise.

I think dubcon also applies to "technically consenting but unenthusiastic", like blackmail or some instances of prostitution or some instances of arranged marriage.

While I agree blackmail could be count as dubcon, technically the basis of "consent" is "given willingly". If a "consent" is obtained under force, like threat of violence or emotional manipulation, it isn't "technically consented".

There are any number of yuri series that start off with supposed "blackmail" or some other kind of coercion but which turn into consensual romance, usually sooner rather than later, including several that end up being remarkably wholesome.

Off the top of my head:

• Can't Defy the Lonely Girl

• The Secret of the Princess

• Even If It Was Just Once, I Regret It

• Other Than My Friend's Sister, Something Else

• That Time I Was Blackmailed By the Class's Green Tea Bitch

In fact, a repeated trope in such stories is one of the MC's saying in a later chapter, "Oh, yeah, there was supposed to be blackmail, wasn't there?"

Since there's no Benign Blackmail tag, I don't know what tags would apply, but my feeling is that some version of "non-consent" isn't it.

It's questionable if this is really even blackmail, so it's not surprising it doesn't fit with any form of non-consent. One could a argue for a separate tag. If the blackmail doesn't play a major role, it's still easy enough to tag the early chapters where it's treated somewhat seriously as blackmail, rather than tagging a non-dynamic.

last edited at Jun 20, 2025 6:57AM

There are any number of yuri series that start off with supposed "blackmail" or some other kind of coercion but which turn into consensual romance, usually sooner rather than later, including several that end up being remarkably wholesome.

[...]

Since there's no Benign Blackmail tag, I don't know what tags would apply, but my feeling is that some version of "non-consent" isn't it.

I believe Blackmail as a tag already says more about the pre-/absence on consent than dubcon ever could, and unless there are separate dubcon elements on top of it, should suffice. It's essentialy a side-grade to dubcon.

As for Benign Blackmail, I think it's best to decide on a chapter-by-chapter basis to mark the early potentially objectionable content?

Technically, you can even blackmail someone to do something non-sexual. Surprising, I know.

More seriously, blackmail can also lead to ambiguous situations, like where it's not clear how much the blackmail factors into the blackmailee's decision in or where it's not clear if the blackmailer plans to leverage the blackmail or not in this situation. In the second, the blackmailee may decide to go along with it to be on the safe side or to try to get influence or approval with the blackmailer.

The only consistent part of blackmail is using information to get someone else to do something to which the blackmailer thinks they wouldn't typically agree.

last edited at Jun 20, 2025 4:59PM

Oh right, I think Dubcon has also been applied to some oneshots where we just don't know the context of what's going on. Not obviously consensual BDSM, somehow doesn't feel like rape, so gets Dubcon though maybe 'Unknown consent' would be more precise.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/their_secret_time is a good example, especially looking at the comments. Lots of uncertainty about what's going on.

Oh right, I think Dubcon has also been applied to some oneshots where we just don't know the context of what's going on. Not obviously consensual BDSM, somehow doesn't feel like rape, so gets Dubcon though maybe 'Unknown consent' would be more precise.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/their_secret_time is a good example, especially looking at the comments. Lots of uncertainty about what's going on.

That's a great example. Our understanding of the whole thing swings on whoever the speaker of the narrative captions (the one saying "we") is. But we don't know for sure.

I find it funny how much you all are / were (in that one shot's discussion thread) reading into this. To me, it looks like a pretty clear BDSM coded work where the person is enjoying it, but has shame/embarrassment and can't admit to it. The crying itself is being depicted in a sexual way, rather than being a sign Asahi dislikes it.

We even have an ongoing series by the same author where what's clearly the same two character designs (albeit with different names I think) are aged up, in a relationship, and one of them is still crying in sexual situations. Sometimes the situations still involving her ear. Crying in sexual situations is something people do IRL, though it seems to be much more common in comics, where they are trying to elicit a feeling with only the visuals.

It is a good fit for dubious consent tag, but to me it's not ambiguous that Asahi is enjoying it. They are using the same type of visual framing as in the stories where the person is later explicitly revealed to be enjoying it. We simply don't get that far due to it being a one shot, but it would be very strange to draw it that way if we were meant to come to a different conclusion.

Anyway, I found out about another series to read, so thank you.

last edited at Jun 24, 2025 11:32AM

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/their_secret_time is a good example, especially looking at the comments. Lots of uncertainty about what's going on.

It makes me very happy to see this work cited in this context. It's such a cool piece of media to me.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/their_secret_time is a good example, especially looking at the comments. Lots of uncertainty about what's going on.

It makes me very happy to see this work cited in this context. It's such a cool piece of media to me.

I actually forgot she is the mangaka for "Learning Love," as well. I also liked that one-shot and thought it was pretty clearly consensual, but there was some discussion happening, so I guess the tag works. I wouldn't even call it BDSM--it's just a common trope in manga (and LNs) with shy characters ashamed of openly admitting they enjoy "it" but very much wanting and expecting their partner to continue the whole time. When it's intended to be dangerous, those scenes (and the scenes around them) are normally written differently. Sometimes it just feels like a cultural difference.

last edited at Jun 24, 2025 1:15PM

I'm using BDSM loosely, but I would definitely count embarrassing someone in a sexual situation to the point they're crying to be under the dominance/submission umbrella. The older analogue in learning love is also doing all kinds of power moves in terms of how she physically positions herself. These are quite a bit beyond the typical tropes of a manga character being somewhat hesitant or embarrassed and maybe getting kabedoned.

I also don't see having shame around admitting to enjoying it as culturally specific, though culture can impact how common it is or how it's expressed. You could find plenty of real people in the US like this, some of whom would identify with the BDSM label while others wouldn't. I do get the sense that in Japan there is pressure for younger women to be cute and pure, but I'm hesitant to read too much into manga characters.

last edited at Jun 24, 2025 1:38PM

I also don't see having shame around admitting to enjoying it as culturally specific, though culture can impact how common it is or how it's expressed. You could find plenty of real people in the US like this, some of whom would identify with the BDSM label while others wouldn't. I do get the sense that in Japan there is pressure for younger women to be cute and pure, but I'm hesitant to read too much into manga characters.

By "culture," I was mostly referring to how it's depicted in media. In Japanese manga (and LNs) at least, this kind of stuff is not unusual and is shown in clearly chill, consensual situations or situations that aren't specifically meant to be depicting BDSM. In contrast, from what I've seen in the west, if a character is crying at all during sex or saying "no," its nearly always intended as a negative and dangerous. That seems to prime people for viewing these types of positive scenes in manga negatively as well (and that goes for some other Asian series too). I agree with you, though.

last edited at Jun 24, 2025 3:17PM