Forum › Whispering You a Love Song discussion

46-75
joined Jun 25, 2019

pray to god that i don't want this to continue too much longer because i don't want totake another 2 volumes of that

Selfie
joined Aug 25, 2018

I haven't read this one since that shiho girl appeared. I just enter from time to time when it gets an update to laugh at the comments lol.

Descarga%20(3)
joined Aug 10, 2015

Gotta love how dismissive some people were when I speculate that aki was gonna blame herself and probably gonna be the one to apologize
Even if it's clear to everyone that all of shiho s struggles are self inflicted, I legit think Takeshima eku is trying to convince people that they aren't and that she isn't at fault

Just look at kyo, people like to talk about how expectations and pressure broke shiho, when In reality kyo was the one being forced to play and win by her parents, while being hated by shiho for being better than her. And despite the fact that Shiho ruined music for both of them the manga frames her as the victim and glosses over the fact that kyo lost a friend due to circumstances completely out of her control and for a long time believed it was her fault

Same with the scene with aki and yori, there could have been a scene showing aki concerned for shiho, showing that she's also important to aki and that giving up that easily was a mistake, but instead there's a heavy focus on how sad she was for seeing aki with another girl, as if aki betrayed her by falling in love with yori

joined Jan 21, 2020

Gotta love how dismissive some people were when I speculate that aki was gonna blame herself and probably gonna be the one to apologize
Even if it's clear to everyone that all of shiho s struggles are self inflicted, I legit think Takeshima eku is trying to convince people that they aren't and that she isn't at fault

Yea, ive seen several people in this thread claim with full confidence that takeshima will absolutely show shiho as the one at fault and have her apologize/repent, but honestly i think theres a legitimate chance that wont happen. It might well be a "both sides made mistakes" thing if even that. Alot of manga in general can be really bad at having their characters take accountability, having them commit misdeeds of varying severity and then get away if a quick "sorry" if even that. (Like a chapter i recently read, not sure if on here, had a character try to push another character down the stairs and then was like "sorry, i was jelous" and every1 is like yea that checks out)

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Gotta love how dismissive some people were when I speculate that aki was gonna blame herself and probably gonna be the one to apologize
Even if it's clear to everyone that all of shiho s struggles are self inflicted, I legit think Takeshima eku is trying to convince people that they aren't and that she isn't at fault

Yea, ive seen several people in this thread claim with full confidence that takeshima will absolutely show shiho as the one at fault and have her apologize/repent, but honestly i think theres a legitimate chance that wont happen. It might well be a "both sides made mistakes" thing if even that. Alot of manga in general can be really bad at having their characters take accountability, having them commit misdeeds of varying severity and then get away if a quick "sorry" if even that. (Like a chapter i recently read, not sure if on here, had a character try to push another character down the stairs and then was like "sorry, i was jelous" and every1 is like yea that checks out)

"Snow Thaw & Love Letter," I believe.

Aki's response has a least a little of that (to me) weird Asian narrative trope (if not cultural norm--I have no idea if it's real) of taking on second or third-hand responsibility/guilt when bad things happen. I see it in Kdramas all the time: "If I hadn't had something else to do I could have gone shopping with my friend downtown, but instead she went to the mall and got picked up by a serial killer, so her death was my fault."

The fact that Shiho never confessed to Aki and Aki never confessed to Iori makes the central romantic-angst conflict rather ridiculous. We seem to have at least started down the path of characters apologizing for failing to perceive what the other characters have steadfastly avoided telling them.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 10:17AM

joined Jun 3, 2020

It's because Japanese culture is built on top of collectivism, a belief anyone who is part of any group has joint responsability to ensure it remains well and harmonious. And this "group" can be anything, from your class at school to your club to your entire country.
So what does this means for the situation of this manga? Well, Shiho disrupted the band's work for personal reasons, and that's bad. On the flip side, her bandmates were part of the same group as her and thus were also responsible for keeping it harmonious. That means stopping Shiho from descending into negativity and disrupting their work was part of their jobs. They failed to prevent that, so they share some guilt. Thus Aki's reasoning: "If I had noticed Shiho was in love with me, I could have prevented her from leaving and we would still be happily playing in the same band. Since I didn't, it's my fault we are all feeling bad now".

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

It's because Japanese culture is built on top of collectivism, a belief anyone who is part of any group has joint responsability to ensure it remains well and harmonious. And this "group" can be anything, from your class at school to your club to your entire country.
So what does this means for the situation of this manga? Well, Shiho disrupted the band's work for personal reasons, and that's bad. On the flip side, her bandmates were part of the same group as her and thus were also responsible for keeping it harmonious. That means stopping Shiho from descending into negativity and disrupting their work was part of their jobs. They failed to prevent that, so they share some guilt. Thus Aki's reasoning: "If I had noticed Shiho was in love with me, I could have prevented her from leaving and we would still be happily playing in the same band. Since I didn't, it's my fault we are all feeling bad now".

Quite so. Of course, the fact that the story starts by establishing Iori as the cool lone wolf who only deigns to play with the rest of the group on her own terms sets up a rather different, or at least modified, value system for this particular series.

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

It's because Japanese culture is built on top of collectivism, a belief anyone who is part of any group has joint responsability to ensure it remains well and harmonious. And this "group" can be anything, from your class at school to your club to your entire country.
So what does this means for the situation of this manga? Well, Shiho disrupted the band's work for personal reasons, and that's bad. On the flip side, her bandmates were part of the same group as her and thus were also responsible for keeping it harmonious. That means stopping Shiho from descending into negativity and disrupting their work was part of their jobs. They failed to prevent that, so they share some guilt. Thus Aki's reasoning: "If I had noticed Shiho was in love with me, I could have prevented her from leaving and we would still be happily playing in the same band. Since I didn't, it's my fault we are all feeling bad now".

Basically, yeah. Kudos to you for addressing that a bit as a way of explaining why this happens so often in these stories. This is partly why Shiho types come up so regularly and are resolved in similar fashion (with little issue from what I'd consider the core audience). These are still made primarily for a Japanese reader. This is just one of those sensibilities that runs counter to the general independent western bent, so it's interesting when it comes up like this (and predictably will always be hard to swallow culturally). I'm american but have always sympathized with a more community based approach which likely affects how I view these situations. Maybe because I'm from an immigrant family. Would be an interesting experiment to tease out how replicable that would be.

I just read "The Flagrant Flower Blooms With You" (not Yuri) and that's an example of something that deals with the same issues but in a more "mature" way. But the collectivism is clearly still a heavy component (though that story has other themes and issues it's dealing with).

Quite so. Of course, the fact that the story starts by establishing Iori as the cool lone wolf who only deigns to play with the rest of the group on her own terms sets up a rather different, or at least modified, value system for this particular series.

I saw Iori after having just read the recent Grand Blue chapter and had a brain fart.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 12:13PM

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

Gotta love how dismissive some people were when I speculate that aki was gonna blame herself and probably gonna be the one to apologize
Even if it's clear to everyone that all of shiho s struggles are self inflicted, I legit think Takeshima eku is trying to convince people that they aren't and that she isn't at fault

Yea, ive seen several people in this thread claim with full confidence that takeshima will absolutely show shiho as the one at fault and have her apologize/repent, but honestly i think theres a legitimate chance that wont happen. It might well be a "both sides made mistakes" thing if even that. Alot of manga in general can be really bad at having their characters take accountability, having them commit misdeeds of varying severity and then get away if a quick "sorry" if even that. (Like a chapter i recently read, not sure if on here, had a character try to push another character down the stairs and then was like "sorry, i was jelous" and every1 is like yea that checks out)

"Snow Thaw & Love Letter," I believe.

Although I feel I need to point out that she did not do this out of jealousy. She wasn't even really a fan of the "prince". She just thought the new girl was trying to come between what she mistakenly thought was a happy couple. Not that this excuses what she was trying to do, but it's certainly much easier to forgive. Spoiler tagged out of respect for those who might not have read it.

But I can see how someone who misunderstood that chapter despite it being literally spelled out for you would have trouble understanding Aki's situation.

Aki's response has a least a little of that (to me) weird Asian narrative trope (if not cultural norm--I have no idea if it's real) of taking on second or third-hand responsibility/guilt when bad things happen. I see it in Kdramas all the time: "If I hadn't had something else to do I could have gone shopping with my friend downtown, but instead she went to the mall and got picked up by a serial killer, so her death was my fault."

The fact that Shiho never confessed to Aki and Aki never confessed to Iori makes the central romantic-angst conflict rather ridiculous. We seem to have at least started down the path of characters apologizing for failing to perceive what the other characters have steadfastly avoided telling them.

Which is why I'm glad you have properly explained why just because Aki feels guilty about this, it doesn't mean the author is actually holding her responsible.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 12:50PM

joined Jan 21, 2020

But I can see how someone who misunderstood that chapter despite it being literally spelled out for you would have trouble understanding Aki's situation.

I did misremember the exact situation as that isnt a series i actively follow and i just checked out a newly released chapter, but no i do not think that attempted murder is an adequate or even remotely excusable reaction to someone seemingly intervening in a relationship, and i dont think it not being because of jealousy makes it much "easier to forgive" ???? Like youre still trying to end someones life over school relationship shit that youve made up in your head. If something like that happened where i went to school you might well be removed as youre an active danger to your fellow students.

In fact, your comment seems to be a great example of people or characters considerably undermining the severity of situations, which i pointed out in the comment you quoted.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 1:21PM

Descarga%20(3)
joined Aug 10, 2015

Which is why I'm glad you have properly explained why just because Aki feels guilty about this, it doesn't mean the author is actually holding her responsible.

Characters are not independent beings with free will (even if good writing gives that illusion), they're pretty much bounded to the author will. Aki didn't reach the conclusion that it was her fault cuz it made sense, she did it because the author wanted to.
Let's compare this mess with a Manga that successfully pulled off this cliche
In bloom into you touko makes yuu promise her that she won't fall in love with her and is implied that if she were to do so their relationship would change drastically. When yuu falls in love with touko she desperately tries to hide it out of fear of how she'll react. When yuu finally confesses she's shivers in fear of what's going to happen, when touko notices this she comes to the realization that she put unreasonable expectations on yuu and by not noticing her feelings and act accordingly she deeply hurt her and is her fault that she's feeling that way right now

Let's say for the sake of argument that aki noticed shiho s feelings. What exactly was she supposed to do? was she's supposed to repress her feelings for yori to not hurt shiho? Was she supposed to date her even tho she doesn't like her that way? What train of thought would lead her to assume it was her fault and that she had a way of preventing this whole mess

By having aki blaming herself out loud the author is reinforcing the idea that she's been wronged by aki, the only reason the readers don't reach the same conclusion is cuz it doesn't make sense and we can see through Takeshima eku intentions,

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 1:53PM

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

What train of thought would lead her to assume it was her fault and that she had a way of preventing this whole mess

The thought that she had a (culturally debatable) responsibiiity to nurture that relationship as the leader of the band (community) and failed to truly notice her fellow community member's feelings; therefore, "failing" as an attentive group member.

Anyway Aki is only taking on her assumed responsibility from a distance. She's not really being blamed, she's blaming herself and maybe a Japanese audience would understand that difference better (and find such more relatable).

Also waiting for that Bloom into You season 2 announcement any day now...

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 1:56PM

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

Which is why I'm glad you have properly explained why just because Aki feels guilty about this, it doesn't mean the author is actually holding her responsible.

Characters are not independent beings with free will (even if good writing gives that illusion), they're pretty much bounded to the author will. Aki didn't reach the conclusion that it was her fault cuz it made sense, she did it because the author wanted to.
Let's compare this mess with a Manga that successfully pulled off this cliche
In bloom into you touko makes yuu promise her that she won't fall in love with her and is implied that if she were to do so their relationship would change drastically. When yuu falls in love with touko she desperately tries to hide it out of fear of how she'll react. When yuu finally confesses she's shivers in fear of what's going to happen, when touko notices this she comes to the realization that she put unreasonable expectations on yuu and by not noticing her feelings and act accordingly she deeply hurt her and is her fault that she's feeling that way right now

Let's say for the sake of argument that aki noticed shiho s feelings. What exactly was she supposed to do? was she's supposed to repress her feelings for yori to not hurt shiho? Was she supposed to date her even tho she doesn't like her that way? What train of thought would lead her to assume it was her fault and that she had a way of preventing this whole mess

The proper equivalent for this in Yagate Kimi ni Naru would be believing that it was indeed Yuu's fault for falling in love and confessing, as she too mistakenly found herself thinking after Touko apologized. And we all know this was neither actually so, not the author showing it to be.

Descarga%20(3)
joined Aug 10, 2015

What train of thought would lead her to assume it was her fault and that she had a way of preventing this whole mess

The thought that she had a (culturally debatable) responsibiiity to nurture that relationship as the leader of the band (community) and failed to truly notice her fellow community member's feelings.

Again what exactly was she supposed to do, was she supposed to sacrifice her own love just to prevent shiho from being hurt? Is that what Takeshima eku is implying?

Subaru
joined Jul 31, 2019

I don't buy for a second that blaming yourself for band breaking up in some convoluted way because of falling in love has anything to do with any kind of collectivism. People in real life blame themselves for things they shouldn't all the time (sometimes they even know perfectly well it's illogical and it doesn't make them feel any better), and I'm really surprised that of all things, this is something you guys want to chalk up to cultural differences (which in general I feel like it's often a very overused explanation, as if Japan is some kind of place populated by aliens from outer space).

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

The thought that she had a (culturally debatable) responsibiiity to nurture that relationship as the leader of the band (community) and failed to truly notice her fellow community member's feelings.

Again what exactly was she supposed to do, was she supposed to sacrifice her own love just to prevent shiho from being hurt? Is that what Takeshima eku is implying?

I said what she would do in my response. She'll likely do it in the manga (apologize for not noticing etc.) but we'll see. Nurture does not imply dating. Don't understand that extreme.

I don't buy for a second that blaming yourself for band breaking up in some convoluted way because of falling in love has anything to do with any kind of collectivism. People in real life blame themselves for things they shouldn't all the time (sometimes they even know perfectly well it's illogical and it doesn't make them feel any better), and I'm really surprised that of all things, this is something you guys want to chalk up to cultural differences (which in general I feel like it's often a very overused explanation, as if Japan is some kind of place populated by aliens from outer space).

This, I really don't understand. Yes, no one experiences anything exclusively. Cultural differences are about intensity and frequency, not monopoly. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 2:18PM

Descarga%20(3)
joined Aug 10, 2015

The proper equivalent for this in Yagate Kimi ni Naru would be believing that it was indeed Yuu's fault for falling in love and confessing, as she too mistakenly found herself thinking after Touko apologized. And we all know this was neither actually so, not the author showing it to be.

No it isn't we were talking about the "I failed to notice your feelings" trope not the "I'm sorry for falling in love with you" one, even if often they'll be together in a story they are quite different and are not interchangeable. Even if we, for the sake of argument, equate yuu to aki and shiho to touko, yagakimi handle it miles better, touko realized her mistake and redeemed herself, after 20+ chapter of drama it hasn't even crossed shiho s mind that she's been hurting people with her actions and keeps thinking only of herself.
And looking at how kyo even after her desth never got a proper apology I highly doubt that neither aki nor the SS girl will receive one

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I'm really surprised that of all things, this is something you guys want to chalk up to cultural differences

This is part of that "this author is pleasing their target [Japanese] audience so your criticism is invalid" argument.

As I said, I've mostly seen the convoluted assumption of indirect guilt as a trope in Asian fiction, and it's usually a way for a character to make the situation about themselves rather than about the actual perpetrator (the serial killer, in my example above); their assumption of indirect responsibility is rarely reinforced by the story itself.

As others have said, it remains to be seen whether Aki's response is just due to the shock of suddenly discovering Shiho's feelings. If it's developed as an actual character motivation going forward, that's quite a different, and rather implausible, story.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 2:28PM

Descarga%20(3)
joined Aug 10, 2015

I said what she would do in my response. She'll likely do it in the manga (apologize for not noticing etc.) but we'll see. Nurture does not imply dating. Don't understand that extreme.

Shiho made it pretty clear that if aki didn't loved her back she didn't want anything to do with her, I'm not exaggerating when I say that the only option aki had to stop shiho from leaving the band was to date her out of obligation, that's not me making a strawman that literally came from shiho s mouth

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

I said what she would do in my response. She'll likely do it in the manga (apologize for not noticing etc.) but we'll see. Nurture does not imply dating. Don't understand that extreme.

Shiho made it pretty clear that if aki didn't loved her back she didn't want anything to do with her, I'm not exaggerating when I say that the only option aki had to stop shiho from leaving the band was to date her out of obligation, that's not me making a strawman that literally came from shiho s mouth

Aki would not apologize for that. She'd apologize for not being attentive enough to notice Shiho's suffering. I guess you'll bristle at the word suffering? But that's how it could be perceived.

This is part of that "this author is pleasing their target [Japanese] audience so your criticism is invalid" argument.

Not at all but you're free to take it that way. Subjective is not invalid, but I guess I haven't made that clear enough.

As I said, I've mostly seen the convoluted assumption of indirect guilt as a trope in Asian fiction...

Yes, and why do you think that is?

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 3:04PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

As I said, I've mostly seen the convoluted assumption of indirect guilt as a trope in Asian fiction...

Yes, and why do you think that is?

Probably because I read and watch a lot of Asian fiction.

But I would have thought that was obvious.

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

As I said, I've mostly seen the convoluted assumption of indirect guilt as a trope in Asian fiction...

Yes, and why do you think that is?

Probably because I read and watch a lot of Asian fiction.

But I would have thought that was obvious.

Did you really not understand what I was asking or was that meant to be snarky? I'm asking, earnestly.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 3:42PM

Descarga%20(3)
joined Aug 10, 2015

Aki would not apologize for that. She'd apologize for not being attentive enough to notice Shiho's suffering. I guess you'll bristle at the word suffering? But that's how it could be perceived.

Quite the opposite I love stories about people that face the suffering in their lives and as a result become wiser and stronger like zuko from avatar, I'm not a big fan of characters that justify their actions and bad decisions in life and get rewarded after a slap on the wrist (sometimes not even that) just because some perceived offense

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

Aki would not apologize for that. She'd apologize for not being attentive enough to notice Shiho's suffering. I guess you'll bristle at the word suffering? But that's how it could be perceived.

Quite the opposite I love stories about people that face the suffering in their lives and as a result become wiser and stronger like zuko from avatar, I'm not a big fan of characters that justify their actions and bad decisions in life and get rewarded after a slap on the wrist (sometimes not even that) just because some perceived offense

Yeah, we agree there. By "bristle" I meant at the idea that Shiho has actually suffered or could be perceived by some to have suffered from a failure of some sort.

As for Avatar, I'm an Azula fan so maybe that explains my innate, apparent lust for terrible writing and abrasive characters.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 4:12PM

ManuTheBloodedge
joined Oct 20, 2022

No, I am explaining what is. How I feel about the status quo does not factor in yet. You made it sound like my brain just threw dice without me noticing that made me hate Shiho from the get-go, and I then scrambled and made up inconsistencies in order to pretend to have a logical reason to hate her.

We're using "feelings" differently. It's my fault since I try and take shortcuts in order to avoid stretching out these messages further. And anyway there's no point having a philosophical debate in relation to this manga, so as I said I'm leaving it.

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

I consider a story competently written when it follows it's own rules without mistakes, and when it also nails the emotional beats, characters and themes, then I would call it good. Of course writing is more than following some rules, but competent writing is the bedrock, the foundation. It is necessary to transport the emotional content to the audience without getting lost. If a story nails one of them, but fails at the other, I cannot call it good, when there are so many stories that succeed on both aspects.

That's one way of measurement amongst many, yes. Remember I'm not arguing that I think this is well written.

Sorry, now I am a little lost. What were you even arguing then? You seemed to deny the claim that the way Shiho is presented in the story versus the way she actually is acting is very inconsistent, which is all I really argued for, all philosophy aside. Whether this inconsistency makes the story good, bad, and if the author intendet it that way can all be topics for future debate. But I don't think we ever established if you even agree or disagree with that assesment.

To reply you must either login or sign up.