From what I'd read, the Mandate came off as far more purely political than consistently philosophical, so this dimension didn't really strike me- I'd always figured that winning the war came first and justifying the spiritual/moral reasons for your victory came second.

This is absolutely the case. I mean to point out that, traditionally in China, politics, philosophy, and religion are not separable the way they were elsewhere; the Emperor was not understood merely to be a faithful, god-approved authority, but the Son of Heaven, an idea that traces back to the shaman-kings of early China. The character for wang depicts Heaven, Earth, and Man connected by the king, demonstrating the idea that rulership was seen as a position where one would integrate reality. And this all has bearing on the precise meaning of the Mandate, which is “political” for sure, but in a way that many of us aren’t so familiar with. Consider that among the many changes Buddhism had to make entering China was for the temples and monasteries to be integrated into the bureaucracy, and that the many polemical writings we have in favor of Buddhism presented it in a way where it was compatible with Chinese values and useful for the state. In India it was aside from the political system; in China, it necessarily had to wrestle with a political role because there was no room for a belief or spiritual practice to be separate from the political system.

I agree that there’s probably a better meter stick for 3H than the Mandate of Heaven, but if it’s provoked such interesting commentary I think that’s just fine, right?

With regards to the question of depth—I’m no authority but this doesn’t seem to me at least to be a purely Japanese issue. When I think of western comics, I don’t think of meaningful depth either, or most Western action films, etc.—perhaps it has less to do with the culture, and more to do with exactly what sphere of that culture’s entertainment we are looking at. Most fictional work is shallow, after all.

and in defense of FGO—I find that they’ve segregated a lot of the “gacha game content” and “Nasuverse narrative cohesion” by what is/isn’t part of the main story. If you read it as a VN, especially post-singularity 5, it’s quite good, and explores some underexplored aspects of the Nasuverse, like textures, pruning phenomenon, etc., while the “they’re finally here / performing for you / if you know the world, you can join in too” stuff is mostly in bond lines and events. It definitely supports your point about needing some waifu content to push the material, esp. in a gacha game, but I think that separation also allows the main story to work as a narrative largely insulated from this.

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 12:07PM

With regards to the question of depth—I’m no authority but this doesn’t seem to me at least to be a purely Japanese issue. When I think of western comics, I don’t think of meaningful depth either, or most Western action films, etc.—perhaps it has less to do with the culture, and more to do with exactly what sphere of that culture’s entertainment we are looking at. Most fictional work is shallow, after all.

I'd say that Western comics, particularly superhero comics, are both benefited and undermined by the recurrence of characters and universes- you wouldn't get classics like The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight Returns if decades and decades of using Batman as a character hadn't created such a rich mythos of tropes to explore and subvert, but conversely, you also wouldn't have ridiculously convoluted lore and constant deaths and revivals in a dozen different stories with the same characters if the Western comics industry knew when to bury an idea. Some of the best Japanese works I've come across have also benefited by taking established characters and reimagining them- Naoki Urusawa's Pluto, for instance, takes Tezuka's iconic Atom universe and reimagines it in myriad brilliant ways. But I think 'depth' in this context would refer to more in terms of 'detailing' than pure literary merit, which becomes unviable if it grows too esoteric or complex in media environments geared towards simple, shallow gratification.

So rather than fiction being shallow, it's forced to become shallow by industries that suppress nuance and prioritize surface appeal, but the potential for brilliance and revolutionary art always exists- personally, I'm the kind of reader who would consider going through a thousand generic stories as a justified effort if I come across just one work that makes me 'think'. Case in point, I was kinda iffy on this very manga in the first few chapters because I'm not generally a fan of fanservicey action stories, but sticking with it has given me entertainment and encouraged me to engage in a discussion that has been more productive and educational than anything I would've expected to gain while glancing at a psychotic nun's boobs. Odd as the means might be, wisdom can spring from anywhere, and I've found a great deal of it here in chatting with you, so once again, thanks a ton.

and in defense of FGO—I find that they’ve segregated a lot of the “gacha game content” and “Nasuverse narrative cohesion” by what is/isn’t part of the main story. If you read it as a VN, especially post-singularity 5, it’s quite good, and explores some underexplored aspects of the Nasuverse, like textures, pruning phenomenon, etc., while the “they’re finally here / performing for you / if you know the world, you can join in too” stuff is mostly in bond lines and events. It definitely supports your point about needing some waifu content to push the material, esp. in a gacha game, but I think that separation also allows the main story to work as a narrative largely insulated from this.

True, FGO's story is considerably better than most other gacha games on the market. I think FGO as a work becomes a lot easier to like if it serves as your introduction to the franchise- I personally started off the old fashioned way from the Ufotable anime, found the VN, explored the wider Nasuverse and only then came across FGO, so while the game isn't bad per se, the storytelling seems incredibly barebones and simplistic in comparison to what got me into Fate. VNs are obviously far better media for telling a complex story than a gacha game with its tiny text crawl ever could be, so it's unfair to compare FGO to FSN, but I think my grievances, and those of a ton of Nasuverse fans, stem from the fact that FGO has pretty much eclipsed everything else about the franchise. I mean, we went from Kara no Kyokai in 1998 to Tsukihime in 2000 to Fate/Stay Night in 2004- three brilliant, thought-provoking works in twice as many years, and from thereon out, it was all just endless Fate spinoffs. Money drives content creation, so obviously the most profitable part of the franchise will get the majority of content, and as a result, pretty much every other part of the Nasuverse is in development hell. A remake of an existing VN? Still foggy and ambiguous. A sequel to Mahoyo, which featured incredible improvements in Nasu's writing and characterization? Nope, 8 years in and we haven't even gotten part 2 of a prequel trilogy. More DDD LNs? Girls' Work? Nope, they're basically lost history by this point, while FGO informs you that yet another historical waifu who bears no actual resemblance to history is now getting a sexy swimsuit outfit and an entire event that revolves around it.

For everyone who fell in love with the Nasuverse because of how brilliant it was at creating unique characters and innovative narratives, it just feels kinda hurtful, and it's one of the reasons I lapsed as a Fate fan, because the franchise just wasn't doing it for me anymore. Optimists say that Nasu's only using the gacha game to fund his actual, hidden magnum opuses, but after five years and several billion dollars made with very little in the way of non-Fate content, it just seems like Type Moon has chanced upon a perpetual revenue machine and won't ever let it go. Maybe it's unrealistic, but I still can't help feeling nostalgic for those days of buggy computer VNs, back when Takeuchi could draw more than one face and Nasu had more ideas than he knew what to do with and created this wonderful urban fantasy kitchen sink. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, though. FGO did give us Kagetora, so it's not all bad.

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 3:18PM

FGO

I definitely understand this perspective--and I think perhaps the emergent narrative and fan works of FGO are as much of the appeal as what's actually presented. For my part, I love the concept of Servants, and of seeing different figures interpreted as Servants for the benefit of my/other peoples' consideration. For example, despite an interesting core concept, I think Scheherazade is one of the worst-executed Servants in all of Fate, and yet the potential exists in her for stuff like this. The profusion of Servants leads to questions about what a hero is, what is required and what our choices say about humanity, that holds a similar interest to me as the original FSN's interrogation of the many ways we mythologize, distort, and tell history. Of course, the VN explores its questions much better, there's no doubt about that--but FGO lets you be gay: consider that.

3H

The stuff you're saying about the endings of 3H reinforces my belief that the best way to play it is to, as I did, choose the Black Eagles because you're gay, go through the game and buy the message that revolution was necessary for Fódlan, and then hear secondhand about the endings of the other routes and think, "ah, I guess the tone in other endings is that everybody thinks everything is okay but doesn't know shit is still/more fukt." Everything aligns when you choose the actual revolutionary option and not elsewhere. Really, they should have just gone with BE and fleshed everything out--that's where the real story was, in my (obviously unbiased) opinion.

but FGO lets you be gay: consider that.

Duly noted. Though the dialogue still exhibits that weird tendency to assume that you're a straight guy- the girls are obviously head over heels for you, but many of the guys never get remotely as affectionate or romantic, lest your average, homophobic male consumer gets squicked out- a point that many straight female and gay male fans of the game resent. So the lesbians inadvertently win, but everyone else, not so much.

3H

It never fails to amuse me how the average Black Eagle player's thought process goes something like, "Oh, that girl's cute and seems gay, let's pick her and see what- Oh, I guess we'll attack and dethrone god now. Neat."

I kinda feel like FE3H might've made the individual routes better if Byleth didn't exist and all the house leaders were protagonists in their own right- you pick one of them and just play as a student first and a general later. Most of the social elements would still factor in- heck, you could have relationships that don't depend on your power to imagine 50% of the romance for your self-insert. You wouldn't be able to teach, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure a parallel mechanic could've been developed. Most importantly, it'd really make each route a lot more personal and allow you to spend time in a leader's head, seeing them grapple with dark secrets and dilemmas. An 'avatar' character more often than not ends up being a McGuffin that people talk to, and some clever writing could easily reshuffle the necessary plot elements.

Also, just imagine how cool it'd be to play Edelgard and recruit, say, Marianne from the Golden Deer, giving her the emotional support she needs at an early stage and having her grow into a more confident, assertive general for you over the course of the war. Massive missed opportunity, tbh.

I kinda feel like FE3H might've made the individual routes better if Byleth didn't exist and all the house leaders were protagonists in their own right- you pick one of them and just play as a student first and a general later. Most of the social elements would still factor in- heck, you could have relationships that don't depend on your power to imagine 50% of the romance for your self-insert. You wouldn't be able to teach, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure a parallel mechanic could've been developed. Most importantly, it'd really make each route a lot more personal and allow you to spend time in a leader's head, seeing them grapple with dark secrets and dilemmas. An 'avatar' character more often than not ends up being a McGuffin that people talk to, and some clever writing could easily reshuffle the necessary plot elements.

I have actually researched the FE series' history, and the whole "customizable avatar teams up with pre-scripted Lord" is a very recent feature, having only been introduced in the 2010 remake of FE3 and fully codified in the 2012 Awakening. Given how the latter game had single-handedly saved the series from being canned, it's pretty clear to me that the devs won't deviate from it in the foreseeable future. On a more theoretical note, I think that both approaches have their benefits and downsides in terms of writing.

last edited at Nov 24, 2020 8:35AM

kirin that's why if i suggest devil lady i always go for the anime first because of the content of the manga

kirin that's why if i suggest devil lady i always go for the anime first because of the content of the manga

Yes, I've done some reading about the anime and it seems much more interesting. Thanks for the rec.

but FGO lets you be gay: consider that.

Duly noted. Though the dialogue still exhibits that weird tendency to assume that you're a straight guy- the girls are obviously head over heels for you, but many of the guys never get remotely as affectionate or romantic, lest your average, homophobic male consumer gets squicked out- a point that many straight female and gay male fans of the game resent.

I for sure feel for my gay bros here, that’s real. On the other hand, I felt it didn’t give you the hormonal straight boy experience the way, for example, CCC does—I think a lot of it is thanks to DW’s TL team, who are based as fuck. After the first few chapters, once they hit their stride, they do a great job of making you feel you are actually playing as a girl. It’s good.

The stuff with Mash, especially, has a certain sapphic tone to it all. Just in general, the player shipping stuff tends to lack that unpleasant hard edge, and fits right in the strike zone of my gay little heart—even though I do wish things didn’t revolve so much around the PC.

And we’ve got the subtle cute stuff like Okkie/Musashi, who keep showing up together in events or event art, have the same magatama necklace, and shippers in the writing/art crew, which is lovely.

Ahem. Anyway. It’s the most pleasantly I’ve been able to go into a space clearly primarily designed for straight dudes. I think it deserves some recognition.

The stuff with Mash, especially, has a certain sapphic tone to it all. Just in general, the player shipping stuff tends to lack that unpleasant hard edge, and fits right in the strike zone of my gay little heart—even though I do wish things didn’t revolve so much around the PC.

Ahem. Anyway. It’s the most pleasantly I’ve been able to go into a space clearly primarily designed for straight dudes. I think it deserves some recognition.

That's a fair assessment. I checked around some of the other major gacha games at the time, and it's a heck of a lot better at being ambiguously sapphic than, say Azur Lane. I think Arknights might be better than it in the overall diversity department, but I don't know all that much about it, so let's just agree that FGO is a decent compromise. It does make me wish for a game that's unambiguously, uncompromisingly designed for a lesbian audience while still having a decent overall story and premise. A lot of Bushiroad's games come quite close, with Love Live, Bandori and D4DJ starring all-female casts, though the plot is pretty SOL, while Symphogear and Magia Record are more action-oriented, though not as great in their story department as their respective anime. I'd personally say that the best compromise between fascinating plots and lesbian appeal is Revue Starlight Re Live, though it's also SOL around 80% of the time and is notoriously badly managed in terms of rates and events. Still, whenever the writers produce a good main story event, they really knock things out of the park.

And we’ve got the subtle cute stuff like Okkie/Musashi, who keep showing up together in events or event art, have the same magatama necklace, and shippers in the writing/art crew, which is lovely.

Okkie and Musashi are adorable, and so are Nobukita. Surprisingly, when the game does commit to actual couples instead of having someone talk at the screen, they're often some of the best dynamics in the game. Ryoma and Oryou, for instance, are a genuinely perfect mix of hilarity and pathos, and all the KOTR have some spicy drama brewing as well, not to mention Gil and Enkidu. It does give off the impression of there being good writers on the staff who want to create compelling relationships between actual human beings, but have to complete a certain quota of wish fulfilment first. The main issue, at least in my view, is that the cast grows so quick to keep up with market demand that the game often risks collapsing under its own weight, and is likely to consign many characters to obscurity or specifically release more fanservicey variants of them to maintain sales. Also, I've heard that they're starting to experiment with different bond lines based on the gender that Guda(k)o plays as- while this might go a long way towards reinforcing the sapphic tone you talked about, I also fear it might lead to characters emphasizing the whole 'just a bunch of gal pals' angle too. Only time will tell, I suppose.

I wouldnt give up so easily on Dorothy at this stage. I dont think shes a psychopath at all. The fact that shes throwing herself in front of the most dangerous monsters on earth despite the fact that she isnt even meant to be fighting, all for the sake of avenging a dead loved one shows that shes been carrying a huge amount of grief and heartbreak this entire time. Shanon herself has even pointed it out. She changed after her nursing mother was killed. I think that's when this perceived "psychopathy" appeared. But I think that it stems from Dorothy not wanting to be close to anyone ever again because she cant handle the possibility of another heartbreak.

Speaking of shanon, I think that Shanon loves dorothy for good reason. Shanon knows who Dorothy truly is because she knew her before her nursing mother died, and that shes seen Dorothy's emotional wellbeing and ability to maintain relationships decline ever since.

Dorothy also seems to genuinely care for Maria even though she says shes just a tool to her. Like when she sung a lullaby for her the morning after they had a rather heated night together. I think that the author is hinting to us that deep down Dorothy does feel for Maria but shes denying her feelings as much as she can.

Also please for the love of god can this loli character please go away after this arc... lolis are the fucking worst characters both in concept alone and in content. The entire point of a loli is to just create a legally fuckable child and copy the aesthetics of pedophilia while pretending it's totally fine and has nothing to do with pedophilia. I'm very glad Shanon found her annoying because if they end up together then I'm dropping this manga like a sack of heavy shit. Honestly just make Dorothy end up with both maria and shanon. I'll take wholesome polyamory over ""legal"" pedophilia every fucking day of the week.

Phew, had to rush this one a little to get it out in time but we managed to do it. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone, look forward to another year of lesbian nuns with guns in 2021!

This was such a great battle chapter. Tons of action, mini-arcs resolving, characters pulling last-minute saves on their way to fight the big bads, and pockets of lesbianism approaching a singularity. I'm really liking all the characters here- Bone Saw McGraw is cute, the Tribbianis have great style, the Robot is bitch-slapping its way into my heart, the scientist unironically said Boop, the Pope is like Griffith getting eclipsed by his own demons, Dorothy is moving pieces around on a chessboard composed solely of queens, and our girl Maria is now giving out free bottom lessons to Shannon, who seems to be taking fashion hints from trashy erotic novels and somehow making them work.

Good shit.

that’s one way to start a chapter i guess o-o

Phew, had to rush this one a little to get it out in time but we managed to do it. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone, look forward to another year of lesbian nuns with guns in 2021!

Thank you for the hard work! Nothing makes a Christmas eve special like some nunfucking and blushing frenemies.

last edited at Dec 24, 2020 4:23PM

This was such a great battle chapter. Tons of action, mini-arcs resolving, characters pulling last-minute saves on their way to fight the big bads, and pockets of lesbianism approaching a singularity. I'm really liking all the characters here- Bone Saw McGraw is cute, the Tribbianis have great style, the Robot is bitch-slapping its way into my heart, the scientist unironically said Boop, the Pope is like Griffith getting eclipsed by his own demons, Dorothy is moving pieces around on a chessboard composed solely of queens, and our girl Maria is now giving out free bottom lessons to Shannon, who seems to be taking fashion hints from trashy erotic novels and somehow making them work.

Good shit.

There's a little added bonus for us Brits in the form of the real-life London locations used throughout the series. In this chapter: Piccadilly Circus, amongst others. Incidentally, this allows us to deduce that Kiki the werewolf is probably Scottish.

What a beautiful Christmas present.
Bless you

Phew, had to rush this one a little to get it out in time but we managed to do it. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone, look forward to another year of lesbian nuns with guns in 2021!

You’re such a saint xD best gift today! Happy holidays!

"i bet even helen and miranda are having a rough time" oh they're having a hard time alright...

Phew, had to rush this one a little to get it out in time but we managed to do it. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone, look forward to another year of lesbian nuns with guns in 2021!

Thank you for this! I love this series, always frantically checking weekly for a new release.

I wouldnt give up so easily on Dorothy at this stage. I dont think shes a psychopath at all. The fact that shes throwing herself in front of the most dangerous monsters on earth despite the fact that she isnt even meant to be fighting, all for the sake of avenging a dead loved one shows that shes been carrying a huge amount of grief and heartbreak this entire time. Shanon herself has even pointed it out. She changed after her nursing mother was killed. I think that's when this perceived "psychopathy" appeared. But I think that it stems from Dorothy not wanting to be close to anyone ever again because she cant handle the possibility of another heartbreak.

Speaking of shanon, I think that Shanon loves dorothy for good reason. Shanon knows who Dorothy truly is because she knew her before her nursing mother died, and that shes seen Dorothy's emotional wellbeing and ability to maintain relationships decline ever since.

Dorothy also seems to genuinely care for Maria even though she says shes just a tool to her. Like when she sung a lullaby for her the morning after they had a rather heated night together. I think that the author is hinting to us that deep down Dorothy does feel for Maria but shes denying her feelings as much as she can.

Also please for the love of god can this loli character please go away after this arc... lolis are the fucking worst characters both in concept alone and in content. The entire point of a loli is to just create a legally fuckable child and copy the aesthetics of pedophilia while pretending it's totally fine and has nothing to do with pedophilia. I'm very glad Shanon found her annoying because if they end up together then I'm dropping this manga like a sack of heavy shit. Honestly just make Dorothy end up with both maria and shanon. I'll take wholesome polyamory over ""legal"" pedophilia every fucking day of the week.

Thank you for saying this. Especially the last part, I really hate the inclusion of a loli character. Feels so out of place in a story like this (in any story, really), it's also downright just makes me uncomfortable. Very sick of people normalizing pedophilia. It's a horrible trope and practice. Without this character, I find the series interesting and enjoyable.

Also please for the love of god can this loli character please go away after this arc... lolis are the fucking worst characters both in concept alone and in content. The entire point of a loli is to just create a legally fuckable child and copy the aesthetics of pedophilia while pretending it's totally fine and has nothing to do with pedophilia. I'm very glad Shanon found her annoying because if they end up together then I'm dropping this manga like a sack of heavy shit. Honestly just make Dorothy end up with both maria and shanon. I'll take wholesome polyamory over ""legal"" pedophilia every fucking day of the week.

Thank you for saying this. Especially the last part, I really hate the inclusion of a loli character. Feels so out of place in a story like this (in any story, really), it's also downright just makes me uncomfortable. Very sick of people normalizing pedophilia. It's a horrible trope and practice. Without this character, I find the series interesting and enjoyable.

Love that first page! Got a snail-trail on their thighs.

Is the author planning a Shanon x Maria route with that shared blush? Was looking like Shanon x Kiki as of the previous chapter.

This chapter is making me ship Shanon and Maria even more and I have a horrible feeling that it's not going to be end game

Also please for the love of god can this loli character please go away after this arc... lolis are the fucking worst characters both in concept alone and in content. The entire point of a loli is to just create a legally fuckable child and copy the aesthetics of pedophilia while pretending it's totally fine and has nothing to do with pedophilia. I'm very glad Shanon found her annoying because if they end up together then I'm dropping this manga like a sack of heavy shit. Honestly just make Dorothy end up with both maria and shanon. I'll take wholesome polyamory over ""legal"" pedophilia every fucking day of the week.

Thank you for saying this. Especially the last part, I really hate the inclusion of a loli character. Feels so out of place in a story like this (in any story, really), it's also downright just makes me uncomfortable. Very sick of people normalizing pedophilia. It's a horrible trope and practice. Without this character, I find the series interesting and enjoyable.

I'm not sorry that you have to hear people say that pedophilia makes them uncomfortable lol. If you want to look at anime pedophilia then go fuck off to 4chan and end up on a watch list lol.

That being said this conversation may be for naught. After reading this chapter, I'm not so sure that Kiki actually is meant to be a loli. Sure when she was introduced there were some jokes made about her looking like a child but she actually appears to just be a short woman after her true character has been revealed.