Forum › Stretch discussion
Shou's so awesome! Love this series so far.
:-) tho I wish her characters were older. heck, I wish all the mangaka would write more stories where the characters were not high school/collage aged. I'd love to see their perspective on older adult lesbians.
Even more college stuff would be step in the right direction. Get out of the girls' schools, into a setting where it's a bit tougher to find a partner and it's a bit more than a crush!
meh, the way the authors portray the characters is still too high schoolish. need more stories like those written by Nishi Uko IMO.
In total agreement. It would definitely be nice to have more adult oriented materials...
So everybody is waiting for development... :) Nice ! :D Me to :)
BTW 999 Post number is mine :D Awaiting somebody to pass 1000 :)
So everybody is waiting for development... :) Nice ! :D Me to :)
BTW 999 Post number is mine :D Awaiting somebody to pass 1000 :)
Aw maaan, i wanted the 999...
Everyone is expecting the yuri that will never come…
Ran can be totally gay even without any Yuri happening =D
Exactly! And I'd still be happy with that, because at least you'd actually have a queer character in a category inundated with high school girls and their (probably short-lived) crushes. There's a severe dearth of adult LGBT characters in yuri, which is partly why I appreciate series like "Ohana Holoholo" and Nishi UKO and Takemiya Jin's works (though Jin's characters aren't always adults, they definitely come off as being more LGBT than the pure-love-yuri type). If "Stretch" was added to that very short list, it'd be really awesome.
as these Yuri/Shoujo Ai themed publications get folded into the more mainstream outlets, do you think we'll see more or less adult LGBT characters? Also, do you think we'll be inundated with "flavor of the month" serials and one shots and/or see more releases that get watered down to the point they should not be considered subtext? I ask this question in particular because on this reader, Stretch has considerable popularity, and I'm curious if its success could be seen as a template that is copied by other mangaka.
"Stretch" doesn't seem all that popular in Japan, despite its following on this reader, so I doubt that it would serve as a model for other series even if it does turn yuri or reveal that Ran is a lesbian.
However, as you pointed out, it is a fact that yuri is seeping into mainstream publications - see the shoujo (I am aware that it runs in a seinen magazine, but it reads like shoujo) manga "Inari, Konkon, Koi Iroha" which is generally very straight but has a canon, if minor, yuri pairing - so the question still stands. In my opinion, there will probably be little change in the number of adult LGBT characters - there aren't very many adult characters in anime and manga, anyway! - but if there was a change, it'd probably be a decrease. The reason why adult yuri even exists is probably due to the creators' personal preferences (I'm looking at you, Nishi) rather than editorial guidance - Chisako, whose work has run in Yuri-hime, suggested that there ought to be a magazine like Yuri-hime but only with adult characters, like the various adult spinoffs of shoujo magazines e.g. AneLaLa and AneCan, and others mangaka seemed to welcome the idea, including Nishi UKO and Amano Shuninta, who was so enthusiastic she actually drafted a cover illustration for it. (I personally love the idea and wish that such a magazine would really come into existence.) In other words, they probably want to have more adult yuri, but are being held back by their editors or by the readers. And this is already in a category where the base requirement is yuri.
Can you imagine how that would be in a mainstream series? Making the main or frequently recurring characters queer in a work aimed at the masses would already be very unusual, especially if they had a role beyond that of titillation - often even the validity of the term "queer" or LGBT is called into question with mainstream series, let alone their ages.There are exceptions - Golondrina and Gunjou come to mind - but they are few and far between, and in the former, the main character's sexuality is incidental so any issues in connection with it are more or less side-stepped. No, we will have to continue relying on specifically yuri works to find the representation we want for a while: if Yuri-hime disappeared, I would be greatly concerned for the future of yuri/lesbian manga, because it is within this genre that creators have the freedom to write realistic stories about realistic adult characters without worrying about how the audience will take the LGBT elements.
:-) tho I wish her characters were older. heck, I wish all the mangaka would write more stories where the characters were not high school/college aged. I'd love to see their perspective on older adult lesbians.
Even more college stuff would be step in the right direction. Get out of the girls' schools, into a setting where it's a bit tougher to find a partner and it's a bit more than a crush!
meh, the way the authors portray the characters is still too high schoolish. need more stories like those written by Nishi Uko IMO.
College is on the whole still better than the schoolgirl stuff, though. Small steps, small steps.
:-) tho I wish her characters were older. heck, I wish all the mangaka would write more stories where the characters were not high school/collage aged. I'd love to see their perspective on older adult lesbians.
Even more college stuff would be step in the right direction. Get out of the girls' schools, into a setting where it's a bit tougher to find a partner and it's a bit more than a crush!
meh, the way the authors portray the characters is still too high schoolish. need more stories like those written by Nishi Uko IMO.
Yamaji Ebine could use more love. And Octave of course.
Dayum son we just passed 1000 here, awesome
College is on the whole still better than the schoolgirl stuff, though. Small steps, small steps.
kiri, thanks.very informative, and agreed, small steps are still steps forward.
Don't really mind highschool girls setting, and college ain't much of an improvement (it is a step, a very tiny step IMO). The setting does get old after reading many in a single reading session tho. Workplace can be another improvement...
I prefer something even further down the line (aside from stories where they become a couple early, where it is refreshing enough to ignore settings e.g. Prism), not exactly adult life but more of a "living together" setting... Unfortunately there aren't many of those (not even in het afaik), some goodies that come to mind are Wife and Wife, Ebisu-san and Hotei-san (sorta), Under One Roof (not very adult-ish), and the myriad of NanoFate doujins where they live together (most not very adult-ish).
Anyways, back to Stretch... I am not really expecting this to go into yuri, but I would be pleasantly surprised if it did.
last edited at Oct 18, 2014 9:23PM
College setting is better by default simply because i don't have to stare at those god forsaken uniforms all the time
College setting is better by default simply because i don't have to stare at those god forsaken uniforms all the time
One thing I like better about a college is that it's way less likely to be an all-female environment so you can toss that "adolescents pretending because there aren't any guys" bullshit right the fuck out. I get so sick of that. Give me a girl having to work a bit for her love, and then work to keep it.
College setting is better by default simply because i don't have to stare at those god forsaken uniforms all the time
+1 Show more variety of clothes for god's sakes !! >.<
Isn't the school setting for yuri a cultural thing? I remember I read somewhere that shoujo ai is normally accepted as part of the girl's adolescence, experimenting with their love, feelings, and deep friendship bonds. But it's expected that a girl eventually grows up and comes to terms with her sexuality. So a relationship between two girls at higher age becomes inappropriate and deviant, hence the taboo. So if the author wants the series to be animated, i.e. go toward the mainstream direction, it must involve adolescent girls. And this is where the school setting comes into play most of the time's. It's very unfortunate that character's age affects the target audience for the story, but that is how it works in the end. So unless there's a major cultural shift in Japan about homosexuality, I'm afraid we are stuck with the school setting.
What I however do find annoying is that so many stories are so relationship-driven, putting too much focus on it. I really would like to read more manga where a bond is formed between the main characters but is not directly relevant to the plot. Take the latest monogatari, which is focused on Kanbaru, for example. Her sexuality is certainly part of the story, but the story itself is focused on different matters. Or take Utena, where yuri is cannon, but again not really the point of the drama.
As for relationship-oriented stories, Stretch certainly is a breathe of fresh air. The setting is not school, and the yuri is though heavily implied not really a cannon, yet. What I like the most about it is that the characters are on the verge of accepting themselves of who they really are. It's extremely realistic in portraying how two girls are discovering a deep bond between them. It is a story where a hug means more than a kiss. To me, once they confess to each other, once they reach the sexual relationship stage, the beauty of the story dies, because there's no more accepting yourself as gay drama in it. Yes, they might break up, go het, make up again etc, but to me that would be another story. Although I have to admit it would probably be still a better story than many others simply because the author is so good. I'm impressed with every chapter, how many details he puts on every page, leaving hints small details here and there - so much subtext for a careful reader. And of course the realism is simply unbeatable. All these factors together really make me empathise with the story and its characters.
And the stretches of course, stretches are awesome, hehe
School setting is a universal thing not just for yuris, i'm not against the setting but when the setting is used just for an excuse to re-hash overused tropes and plot devices that's when i get mad, which made me really hate some popular authors around here that i shall not name because this new Ziltoid album is awesome and put me in the mood for some coffee
"I'm with someone who's very important to me."
"And I'd love to greet New Year here with that person."
She's totally talking about Keiko!!! I know I took the bait before but in the case of "Someone who's very important to me", I would love to take another bait!
Isn't the school setting for yuri a cultural thing? I remember I read somewhere that shoujo ai is normally accepted as part of the girl's adolescence, experimenting with their love, feelings, and deep friendship bonds. But it's expected that a girl eventually grows up and comes to terms with her sexuality. So a relationship between two girls at higher age becomes inappropriate and deviant, hence the taboo. So if the author wants the series to be animated, i.e. go toward the mainstream direction, it must involve adolescent girls
And this right here is why i am very dissapointed with my birthplace at times
monogatari, which is focused on Kanbaru, for example. Her sexuality is certainly part of the story, but the story itself is focused on different matters.
Wait monogatari? that uber sexualized series that is infamous for having that toothbrushing scene, that has a lesbian in it and the show treats her with respect? whaaaaa-
go het
NO. for a majority of reasons NO.
What I however do find annoying is that so many stories are so relationship-driven, putting too much focus on it. I really would like to read more manga where a bond is formed between the main characters but is not directly relevant to the plot.
takachi, your view is from the perspective of a straight person (male or female), correct? [fyi, I ask this because I believe it plays a role in you POV/perspective, but by no means is it meant to imply anything negative on either your part or mine]
so if you're looking for a bond where friendship or even something more akin to family is the emphasis, then you're not really interested in the Yuri factor? at best, what you are suggesting is borderline cannon/subtext, and if you stretch the subtleness a bit more, it could even be considered fan service. if that is the case, then why not read more SoL themed stories? because, and I mean no disrespect towards you nor am I trying to diminish your point, but what you are hoping for is not Yuri by the nature that you are wanting something that either ignores or does not emphasis that very point. it's sort of like saying... OK, so character A is left-handed. it's just a small detail in the story, but you see, the story is really about how characters A and B learned to work together as a team and formed are special bond despite character A's left-handedness.
now I might be missing the point you're trying to make, but what you are implying really isn't Yuri at that point, and yes I realize that I am associating Yuri with romantic relationships because that for the most part is how Yuri has always been portrayed. but this is just my humble opinion. by all means if I am wrong, please correct me and help me understand your point.
As for relationship-oriented stories, Stretch certainly is a breathe of fresh air. The setting is not school, and the yuri is though heavily implied not really a cannon, yet. What I like the most about it is that the characters are on the verge of accepting themselves of who they really are. It's extremely realistic in portraying how two girls are discovering a deep bond between them. It is a story where a hug means more than a kiss.
adult-themed SoL. always a nice idea. wouldn't mind reading more stories like that especially Yuri/lesbian focused. :-)
To me, once they confess to each other, once they reach the sexual relationship stage, the beauty of the story dies, because there's no more accepting yourself as gay drama in it. Yes, they might break up, go het, make up again etc, but to me that would be another story.
you remind me of someone who likes a puzzle for the sake of the challenge, and once you solve the puzzle, you lose all interest in it. lemme phrase it this way, it sounds like you like theoretical romance (my words here), which includes everything up to, but not including the actual romance. and that's cool. just seems like a waste since a lot of people want the romance which includes the mental and the physical.
And the stretches of course, stretches are awesome, hehe
only reason why I read this in the first place. j/k. ;-)
last edited at Oct 19, 2014 9:00PM
adult-themed SoL. always a nice idea. wouldn't mind reading more stories like that especially Yuri/lesbian focused. :-)
Amd lo, there was YKK. And there was much rejoicing.
yay.
Hello ciega,
First of all, please don't worry, you didn't hurt me in anyway, but rather I'm happy to answer your questions and I hope I won't accidentally hurt you or anyone else in the process too :)
takachi, your view is from the perspective of a straight person (male or female), correct?
My viewpoint is that of a left-handed girl, if it helps, lol. Or rather, my viewpoint is dramatically tired of cliche tropes which yuri has put onto its readers as a genre. I understand there's a huge lack of gay relationships in stories outside yuri, so the existence of the genre has by far been inevitable. What I would however prefer to see instead is that yuri wouldn't limit itself into a special genre, but rather become yet another kind of relationship in your everyday genres.
Ah, it's really difficult to express my point, I'm afraid. You see, I have nothing against characters A and B forming a special bond despite character A's left-handedness. I mean go for it! But before you do, why not go further than that? The story could be way deeper. Let's take any strong shoujo. I don't know, say, Bokura ga Ita or Skip Beat. Wouldn't it be awesome to read a story like that with two girls? I understand that one goes through a particular set of yuri-related hardships such as accepting your sexuality, coming out, unrequited love, etc. But there's so much more to add to this list from a real world. There are many hardships that gay people have to fight not because they're gay, but because they're people. And I find it annoying that practically each and every story deals with gay hardships but ignores the rest as if they don't exist. I think they do, and I think they should be part of the story, because they also play important roles in character development.
I really don't like it when half (if not all) characters turn out to be gay just because this is a yuri manga. Or how male characters are completely non-existent. Just how realistic it that? I don't understand the rage when a chapter gets a Het tag either. It's life! People go and try out things because they are people. Or because of the circumstances they are in, or because of the personalities they have. And that's one of the reasons why I enjoy Stretch so much. It has so much more than plain yuri - fear of earthquakes, death of close relatives, issues with parents, etc. This is what makes it shine, while yuri is just a cherry on top.
now I might be missing the point you're trying to make, but what you are implying really isn't Yuri at that point, and yes I realize that I am associating Yuri with romantic relationships because that for the most part is how Yuri has always been portrayed. but this is just my humble opinion. by all means if I am wrong, please correct me and help me understand your point.
I think that you're correct, and this is why I'm patiently waiting for a good story writer to finally deconstruct yuri and give the genre a birth in a new light. :)
adult-themed SoL. always a nice idea. wouldn't mind reading more stories like that especially Yuri/lesbian focused. :-)
couldn't agree more :)
you remind me of someone who likes a puzzle for the sake of the challenge, and once you solve the puzzle, you lose all interest in it.
yes, because that's what the puzzles are for ;) don't mean I don't like the process of solving the puzzle, but once it's solved, there's nothing new you can learn out of it, and repeating the process soon becomes a boring routine. Unless one goes creative and makes something new out of it. Don't mind either thing actually :)
lemme phrase it this way, it sounds like you like theoretical romance (my words here), which includes everything up to, but not including the actual romance. and that's cool. just seems like a waste since a lot of people want the romance which includes the mental and the physical.
no-no, don't get me wrong! I wouldn't generalise here. I prefer to keep Stretch the way it is now till the end simply because this is what characterizes this particular story. The world of Stretch is that in which the two girls are very close and intimate but it still remains subtext. At least that's how I've perceived it up till now. And the author really tries hard to develop the relationship without breaking the set of rules he himself set, without destroying this world.
Of course, I really want to see them hug, and kiss, and have sex, but I'd rather read this at the end of the series, or even as a special. And as I said earlier I don't mind it going further than that as long as it stays as realistic as it is right now, although I'd then prefer it to be called Stretch 2, because to me, story-wise, that would be a new universe, with a new set of rules, where yuri is no longer averted with subtext. This is really for the sake of consistency and good story-telling, nothing else.
Wait monogatari? that uber sexualized series that is infamous for having that toothbrushing scene, that has a lesbian in it and the show treats her with respect? whaaaaa-
Yea, that toothbrush scene was really something... o_o
Kanbaru is one of the few characters that doesn't get much of that treatment... (At least during season 1 cuz thats the only I've seen)
Of course, I really want to see them hug, and kiss, and have sex, but I'd rather read this at the end of the series, or even as a special. And as I said earlier I don't mind it going further than that as long as it stays as realistic as it is right now, although I'd then prefer it to be called Stretch 2, because to me, story-wise, that would be a new universe, with a new set of rules, where yuri is no longer averted with subtext. This is really for the sake of consistency and good story-telling, nothing else.
Good writing can make this possible to deliver, I rarely ever see it happen tho... It usually flows out like what is going on with Riko & Haru & Irukawa Hot Springs where the yuri suddenly kicks in roughly paced making it feel like a completely different manga.
I kinda get what you mean - not many stories where romance is developing slowly among other things actually happening, especially yuri.
On one side, we have stuff like Kanamemo or Miss Sunflower - pretty nice slow relationship pace with a lot of non-related things around, which is nice. But then again, would be good to see more stuff like that but without schoolgirls. And it's unclear if they'll ever actually get together.
On other side, Octave comes to mind too, which has quite a lot of stuff going on - though it still is relationship-heavy, a lot of problems they face come from being two different people, not from being same gender. But then, not enough non-relationship stuff.
Then, YKK is awesome, but we don't actually see much romantic interaction between Alpha and Kokone.
So, basically, we need to mix Octave with Kanamemo and YKK...and probably add a spoon of Working or Bonnouji to the mix. And maybe top it with Biscuit Hammer in case you like having plot.
Kanbaru is one of the few characters that doesn't get much of that treatment... (At least during season 1 cuz thats the only I've seen)
she does get full attention in hanamonogatari - basically the whole story evolves around her.
Good writing can make this possible to deliver, I rarely ever see it happen tho...
I want to believe :) I mean it really could work out if the story goes about the reactions of their families, other relatives, friends, co-workers. All the hardships. All the drama. Yes this certainly could work. But yes, it would require a talent to make it work maintaining the realism and having enough stretch exercises to draw, lol Let's hope Akili does have such a talent!
I kinda get what you mean - not many stories where romance is developing slowly among other things actually happening, especially yuri.
I think that a lot of yuri manga is still too doujinshi-like and doesn't even try to be a longer series. Unlike (prays) Stretch. I'm so in for another 50 chapters of teasing... and then, say, another 50-100 chapters of deeper relationship.
So, basically, we need to mix Octave with Kanamemo and YKK...and probably add a spoon of Working or Bonnouji to the mix. And maybe top it with Biscuit Hammer in case you like having plot.
sounds like a plan, haha! But really, this kind of balance would be so great...
heh, school had to come first. but...
I hope I won't accidentally hurt you or anyone else in the process too :)
lol, nope. I've got seriously thick skin, and as I've gotten older, I've just learned not to give a f*ck. ;-)
My viewpoint is that of a left-handed girl, if it helps, lol. Or rather, my viewpoint is dramatically tired of cliche tropes which yuri has put onto its readers as a genre. I understand there's a huge lack of gay relationships in stories outside yuri, so the existence of the genre has by far been inevitable. What I would however prefer to see instead is that yuri wouldn't limit itself into a special genre, but rather become yet another kind of relationship in your everyday genres.
from one lefty chick to another, I too wish Yuri were not a niche genre, but let's admit it, it is what it is. that said, we have to measure where it has come from and realize that as much as we'd like this to be treated like any other genre, it has not. the only way that will happen is when mangaka start writing their stories as such and when editors start including more of them into their publications. once it reaches parity, then and only then will it not matter. gay, straight, whatever. ya know what I mean?
Ah, it's really difficult to express my point, I'm afraid. You see, I have nothing against characters A and B forming a special bond despite character A's left-handedness. I mean go for it! But before you do, why not go further than that? The story could be way deeper. Let's take any strong shoujo. I don't know, say, Bokura ga Ita or Skip Beat. Wouldn't it be awesome to read a story like that with two girls? I understand that one goes through a particular set of yuri-related hardships such as accepting your sexuality, coming out, unrequited love, etc. But there's so much more to add to this list from a real world. There are many hardships that gay people have to fight not because they're gay, but because they're people. And I find it annoying that practically each and every story deals with gay hardships but ignores the rest as if they don't exist. I think they do, and I think they should be part of the story, because they also play important roles in character development.
all good points, but I reiterate, let's remember where we have come from. for example, older stories (e.g. late 70's, early 80's) dealt with depressing subject matters or stereotyped gay and lesbian characters with horrible character defects. now truthfully, in some cases, gay and lesbian characters are still stereotyped as comical, villainous, or deeply disturbed, but little by little it has changed. the best way to change this is by mangaka to write more stories as you have describe, and I think that will happen because gays and lesbians are more visible and are slowly (and it really is slow) being accepted into mainstream media and everyday society for that matter. as that happens, more Green Lanterns who happen to be gay, more sy-fly or fantasy like Orphan Black, more.
I really don't like it when half (if not all) characters turn out to be gay just because this is a yuri manga. Or how male characters are completely non-existent. Just how realistic it that?
ummm..... I don't know about this one. I have my "girl" friends with the one token straight guy and he's dropped off the face of the Earth, and then I have my "boy" friends where I am the token lesbian. sometimes it kinda is a "girl's-only" event...
I think that you're correct, and this is why I'm patiently waiting for a good story writer to finally deconstruct yuri and give the genre a birth in a new light. :)
now I could not agree more :-)
Unless one goes creative and makes something new out of it.
I'm puzzle geek. I always look at things from different angles to find solutions. kinda like I treat life.
FWIW, I agree with many of your points; however, I wouldn't want to see Yuri as a genre being tossed for the sake of universal acceptance. there has to be a place for it until it gains universal acceptance and has it's "come to Jesus" moment to borrow the saying. also, I think we as readers and consumers of manga especially Yuri should be demanding more from the mangaka. otherwise, a renaissance in yuri will not occur.
Thank you takachi for a very enlightening discussion.
To all: I do apologies. totally did not mean to turn this into an informal chit-chat and I'll end my discussion here.
last edited at Oct 21, 2014 2:11AM