yall talking trash forget that my girl utena is a huge magical girl stan, what are yall talking about

did i miss the chapter where she went and said she wanted to take over the world? shes into seeing the magical girls be cool and theres nothing cooler than being at the edge of defeat and rising up, of course she was pissed when azul gave up

Yeah she's the kind of fan who puts their idols up on impossible pedestals and then acts betrayed when they fail to live up to the bullshit idea of them she constructed in her own mind aka an insufferable asshole. This chapter kind of just sucked.

yall talking trash forget that my girl utena is a huge magical girl stan, what are yall talking about

did i miss the chapter where she went and said she wanted to take over the world? shes into seeing the magical girls be cool and theres nothing cooler than being at the edge of defeat and rising up, of course she was pissed when azul gave up

Yeah she's the kind of fan who puts their idols up on impossible pedestals and then acts betrayed when they fail to live up to the bullshit idea of them she constructed in her own mind aka an insufferable asshole. This chapter kind of just sucked.

youre reaching so hard, whats this impossible pedestal, dont give up?? the other two have no problem keeping up with that

azuls so horny shes getting caught during her fights, regardless of the fact that utena has no intention of actually beating tres magia, azul should probs not be kneeling and begging in front of her enemy

and that aint me judging azul, gal can be as horny as she wants, but she needs to keep that out of whats basically her job

last edited at Mar 11, 2020 9:35PM

anyone else feeling like the one least developed so far is Magenta? i mean, based on the latest chapter, we can assume that Sulfur is the latest and last to join Tres Magia, since Magenta was alone when Sayo was recruited to be Azul. And Azul has gotten the most development on the Tres Magia side.

Might be a jab at the tendency of the "lead" magical girl in the traditional format to be the most generic (Magenta's most prominent displayed traits so far have been empathy, intuition and being dumb as a rock)... would go well with the general Meta As Fuckness of the series.

last edited at Mar 11, 2020 11:17PM

Whoa, that took a turn.

azuls so horny shes getting caught during her fights, regardless of the fact that utena has no intention of actually beating tres magia, azul should probs not be kneeling and begging in front of her enemy

This. Utena's whole personal stake in the conflict is the thrill of the perpetual battles and trying to have her way with the Tres while they fight her tooth and nail - it's pretty telling that the most excited we've seen her in a while was whenever one of the three pulled out all stops and came at her full bore (Azul in this chapter, fellow combat junkie Sulfur earlier). She's in it for the hunt and the fight, not the kill, something Magenta started suspecting quite early on.

Azul just throwing herself at her feet just... voids all that. A victory without struggle and effort is no victory at all and just tastes like ash. Moreover it violates both the unspoken "rules of the game" and everything Utena admires in both her opponents and her comrades, adoration she's voiced often and explicitly throughout the series (her first meeting with Kiwi would be a standout look at just what makes her tick).

Small wonder then her day is ruined and her disappointment immeasurable - resulting in the hilariously meta scene of the villain giving the hero an intense pep talk and storming off in disgust.

Somehow, I really loved that last chapter. I feel it pretty sound and solid.

I completely agree. One of my favorites so far. Watching her succumb to her desires and being defeated like that so pitiful was beautiful. Utena was pretty relatable as well for me in how she wanted her to come at her with all her strength and taking pure joy in facing her when she was trying her best. Also Utena showing her such a cold face was truly enjoyable. I really can't wait to see what other kind of facial expressions tres magia will be making from here on out.

Somehow, I really loved that last chapter. I feel it pretty sound and solid.

I completely agree. One of my favorites so far. Watching her succumb to her desires and being defeated like that so pitiful was beautiful. Utena was pretty relatable as well for me in how she wanted her to come at her with all her strength and taking pure joy in facing her when she was trying her best. Also Utena showing her such a cold face was truly enjoyable. I really can't wait to see what other kind of facial expressions tres magia will be making from here on out.

Yep. a lot of people talk about abuse and breaking (as if that's the only way to do kink), but this chapter makes it clear Utena wants to PLAY with them, not break them. And Sayo isn't broken, she just has desires she didn't know she had before Baiser, and who she thinks Baiser is the only way to get.

And Sayo isn't broken, she just has desires she didn't know she had before Baiser, and who she thinks Baiser is the only way to get.

Sucks for her that Baiser doesn't do consent.

So first of all, how people are arguing that that Utena is doing isnt abuse cuz Azul kinda enjoyed it is beyond me. Surely we're not about to have a "its not rape if they like it" debate on dynasty of all places. Secondly, people keep talking about how Utena really likes magical girls and is just upset to see one surrender, which is obvious but also really doesnt matter, hell, one could argue that that makes it worse. The main points i was making are that A: Utena is a hypocrit cuz shes angry at Azul for giving in to a desire even tho thats what shes been doing the entire time, and B: that shes even more of a hypocrit and kind of an ass cuz shes the main cause for all this in the first place, and her intent in the matter really doesnt change anything because her actions dont reflect it. Its as if i walked up to a friend and broke their leg and then proceeded to argue that i only did it cuz i enjoy watching them overcome hardship and grow stronger. I feel like thats what half this comment section is aswell, people keep trying to make arguments in favour of Utena that end up boiling down to "Well she means well so its fine right ?", as if that justifies her actions ???
Btw just incase any1 think i hate Utena/this manga, i very much dont. The main reason im so upset at this is cuz i really enjoy this manga and like Utena as a character, so having the newest chapter leave me with such a bitter aftertaste is frustrating.
So basically, the main three arguments for Utena have been "Well Utena meant well so its fine", "Azul is at fault, shouldnt have given in so easily" and "Well she kinda liked it so its not bad", which either thats some lack of self-awareness or people on here are alot more yikes then i thought. Like these are arguments that ive seen plenty of times before, and not exactly in a good context.

Everyone ignore the post above mine like the plague.

Pretty sure ignoring a plague is pretty dangerous (pretty relevant topic lol) but yknow

Dridy, i never said what Utena was doing was right. look at what i typed.
"she learned losing control like that in a non-harmful manner can be fun, and it opened the door"
"she thinks Baiser is the only way to get"

All i said is that the interactions with Baiser revealed she was wired this way, not that Utena was in the right. Trust me, i know way way too much about abusive BDSM RL.

Dridy, i never said what Utena was doing was right. look at what i typed.
"she learned losing control like that in a non-harmful manner can be fun, and it opened the door"
"she thinks Baiser is the only way to get"

All i said is that the interactions with Baiser revealed she was wired this way, not that Utena was in the right. Trust me, i know way way too much about abusive BDSM RL.

My comment wasnt specifically aimed at you, but yea i was a bit too standoffish, my bad. Just getting kinda frustrated at people saying that the blame lies with Azul for giving in. I do think though that "non-harmful" isnt something we can assume and definitly something that Utena cant and hasnt assumed. Tbh i kinda hope the manga goes a semi-serious route now an properly adresses what everyones been doing but thats highly unlikely sadly.

DridyEXE posted:

So first of all, how people are arguing that that Utena is doing isnt abuse cuz Azul kinda enjoyed it is beyond me. Surely we're not about to have a "its not rape if they like it" debate on dynasty of all places. Secondly, people keep talking about how Utena really likes magical girls and is just upset to see one surrender, which is obvious but also really doesnt matter, hell, one could argue that that makes it worse. The main points i was making are that A: Utena is a hypocrit cuz shes angry at Azul for giving in to a desire even tho thats what shes been doing the entire time, and B: that shes even more of a hypocrit and kind of an ass cuz shes the main cause for all this in the first place, and her intent in the matter really doesnt change anything because her actions dont reflect it. Its as if i walked up to a friend and broke their leg and then proceeded to argue that i only did it cuz i enjoy watching them overcome hardship and grow stronger. I feel like thats what half this comment section is aswell, people keep trying to make arguments in favour of Utena that end up boiling down to "Well she means well so its fine right ?", as if that justifies her actions ???
Btw just incase any1 think i hate Utena/this manga, i very much dont. The main reason im so upset at this is cuz i really enjoy this manga and like Utena as a character, so having the newest chapter leave me with such a bitter aftertaste is frustrating.
So basically, the main three arguments for Utena have been "Well Utena meant well so its fine", "Azul is at fault, shouldnt have given in so easily" and "Well she kinda liked it so its not bad", which either thats some lack of self-awareness or people on here are alot more yikes then i thought. Like these are arguments that ive seen plenty of times before, and not exactly in a good context.

Ffs is not a romance or a hentai (it is close to the later, I'll give you that) and I believe that no one here has ever said something close to "she likes it so it's fine" and even if that were the case you're still fundamentally wrong because Utena IS A VILLAIN, she's NOT supposed to care about collateral damage, she's completely free to fall to darkness and enjoy it and if there's some kind of retaliation or justice for her it will come from the hands of the magical girls.

No one is saying this is fine, we're just having a blast because we're seeing a rare case where the villain is the protagonist in a magical girls show, the vast majority of people laughing and having a good time here already understood that Utena is twisted and BAD (so we don't need to talk about it every single episode) so please stop with that "She's not supposed to hurt them, she's to ask for permission and to act properly, she's an hypocrite!" no no no, that's not a villain, you're asking for a villain to act like a good girl and you're mad because Utena is asking a good girl to act like a good girl, to not fall to darkness, to not give up (and this IN NO WAY means that is Azul's fault).

You don't like that the villain is saying that of all people? well that was even acknowledge inside the series at the end of the chapter, it's supposed to be ridiculous, not appropriate.

You're using an analogy of a friend hurting you for your own good, just to make it look worse... But you're far, far from what's really happening, a crazy bad girl not holding back going against her admired rivals, And she got hit plenty of times too, blood and all, they're not being kind to each other's and they're not friends... They're supposed to fight and Utena is playing dirty (as she's meant to do).

But sure, keep talking about raping and blaming the victim and dynasty users agreeing with that... But keep it on your head where all those comments really are, we're not reading a cheap hentai here, so before you start saying that dynasty forum likes to throw rocks at girls that have premarital sex I suggest we stop, you're fighting the wrong battle in the wrong place with the wrong enemy.

DridyEXE posted:

So first of all, how people are arguing that that Utena is doing isnt abuse cuz Azul kinda enjoyed it is beyond me. Surely we're not about to have a "its not rape if they like it" debate on dynasty of all places. Secondly, people keep talking about how Utena really likes magical girls and is just upset to see one surrender, which is obvious but also really doesnt matter, hell, one could argue that that makes it worse. The main points i was making are that A: Utena is a hypocrit cuz shes angry at Azul for giving in to a desire even tho thats what shes been doing the entire time, and B: that shes even more of a hypocrit and kind of an ass cuz shes the main cause for all this in the first place, and her intent in the matter really doesnt change anything because her actions dont reflect it. Its as if i walked up to a friend and broke their leg and then proceeded to argue that i only did it cuz i enjoy watching them overcome hardship and grow stronger. I feel like thats what half this comment section is aswell, people keep trying to make arguments in favour of Utena that end up boiling down to "Well she means well so its fine right ?", as if that justifies her actions ???
Btw just incase any1 think i hate Utena/this manga, i very much dont. The main reason im so upset at this is cuz i really enjoy this manga and like Utena as a character, so having the newest chapter leave me with such a bitter aftertaste is frustrating.
So basically, the main three arguments for Utena have been "Well Utena meant well so its fine", "Azul is at fault, shouldnt have given in so easily" and "Well she kinda liked it so its not bad", which either thats some lack of self-awareness or people on here are alot more yikes then i thought. Like these are arguments that ive seen plenty of times before, and not exactly in a good context.

Ffs is not a romance or a hentai (it is close to the later, I'll give you that) and I believe that no one here has ever said something close to "she likes it so it's fine" and even if that were the case you're still fundamentally wrong because Utena IS A VILLAIN, she's NOT supposed to care about collateral damage, she's completely free to fall to darkness and enjoy it and if there's some kind of retaliation or justice for her it will come from the hands of the magical girls.

No one is saying this is fine, we're just having a blast because we're seeing a rare case where the villain is the protagonist in a magical girls show, the vast majority of people laughing and having a good time here already understood that Utena is twisted and BAD (so we don't need to talk about it every single episode) so please stop with that "She's not supposed to hurt them, she's to ask for permission and to act properly, she's an hypocrite!" no no no, that's not a villain, you're asking for a villain to act like a good girl and you're mad because Utena is asking a good girl to act like a good girl, to not fall to darkness, to not give up (and this IN NO WAY means that is Azul's fault).

You don't like that the villain is saying that of all people? well that was even acknowledge inside the series at the end of the chapter, it's supposed to be ridiculous, not appropriate.

You're using an analogy of a friend hurting you for your own good, just to make it look worse... But you're far, far from what's really happening, a crazy bad girl not holding back going against her admired rivals, And she got hit plenty of times too, blood and all, they're not being kind to each other's and they're not friends... They're supposed to fight and Utena is playing dirty (as she's meant to do).

But sure, keep talking about raping and blaming the victim and dynasty users agreeing with that... But keep it on your head where all those comments really are, we're not reading a cheap hentai here, so before you start saying that dynasty forum likes to throw rocks at girls that have premarital sex I suggest we stop, you're fighting the wrong battle in the wrong place with the wrong enemy.

First of all, you seem to have completely misunderstood what my original criticizm of the chapter was. What i was criticizing was that i felt the manga was setting up to have Utenas disgust at Azul be used as a means to put Azul back on the "right" path, which would bother me because 1. i dont think what Azul did is even very reprehensible and 2. Utena criticizing her about that feels jarring because shes been doing the same for a while now. Obviously, my comment was entirely based on speculation as to how the manga would continue and this is something i stated in one of the earlier comments.
Secondly, i dont know if we've been reading the same comment section or where exactly you have your "Noone here is arguing that" from, but the entire reason my comments went to arguing why Utena is being a bad person was because people were defending her or arguing that Azul was at fault for giving in. I dont doubt that you view Utena as a villain and a twisted and horrible person but im pretty sure a lot (if not most people here) dont, me included, which is why after my initial comment, half the comment section was something like "why are you trashtalking my girl Utena". But hey, considering that you said about her being aweful, i guess we both disagree with the same people lol

On an altogether more important note, is it bad I lowkey want Sulfur to beat me up? >_>

its wild to me we're talking about rape now, what are you people smoking

Edit: there is legit some massive misunderstanding about the framing of both the series and utena going on with you people so once im home in like 5 hours im gonna have to write a proper ass post explaining that, look forward to THAT wall of text

last edited at Mar 12, 2020 2:44PM

its wild to me we're talking about rape now, what are you people smoking

I mean. Baiser just made it clear she is literally averse to consent, at least as far as the Tres are concerned... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

its wild to me we're talking about rape now, what are you people smoking

I mean. Baiser just made it clear she is literally averse to consent, at least as far as the Tres are concerned... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i wouldn't even call it that. More like she gets to see sides of them in fighting them that she wouldn't otherwise, and gets a thrill out of seeing them act heroic, rise up despite the difficulty. That's why she gets so pissed at Azul; Azul literally loses that resolve and force of will in front of her. While Utena says "i wanna see that face corrupted" when she actually sees it in Azul she's pissed off and disappointed.

Okay to begin with I re read the whole thing and it became super obvious I'm trying to write serious analysis of a sleazy ecchi gag manga about a 14 year old being blackmailed and forced to fight and sexually harass her idols. Where I'm going with this is that this really isn't a manga that you can seriously analyze past its basic premise, just reading what it's about is enough to be like "ok its garbage", but it's garbage that i like so here we go regardless.

Let's address the most common word used to label Utena after chapter 10 which is "Hypocrite", and at that point I also gotta point back at the premise because there's 2 key points there: 1) is that Utena is the Villain, 2) is that she's being blackmailed into it. Nothing has changed about these two points since the beginning.

It is true that at some point, being pushed by Venalita through coercion, shes realized that shes super into bdsm and has began to enjoy the whole putting in the pain, but at the end of the day Utena still has no intention of going through whatever evil plan enormeeta has, shes only doing the best out of a really shitty situation shes been put on. And this bring another important point on the framing which is that we don't really know what the stakes are, we just know what characters think the stakes are.

To Utena, the stakes are that if she stops fighting her life is over as she's exposed as the leader of the evil forces, other than doing what Venalita tells her to do, that's as far as her stake goes. But the magical girls have a completely different point of view of this whole conflict, they're fighting the forces of evil, they're keeping people safe. Furthermore: Tres magia do not know about Utenas situation, but Utena knows about Tres Magias.

So like, the claim here is "Utena is a hypocrite because she's the one putting Azul into that situation and then calling them out" is false, because Utena DOES NOT have agency in this situation, she's the one who's been put into that situation, she's found pleasure into it after being groomed to do so, but otherwise she doesn't actively want to fight the Magias.

During this fight, Utena is the one with the whole picture, she is being forced to fight and play the villain, Azul has chosen to be a magical girl and is fighting evil. Like, her entire commentary for the entire fight was taunting/cheering Azul into not giving up, she wanted the fight to keep going because "the heroes win in the end".

Then Azul gives up, she doesn't know that Utena isn't a REAL villain, what is going on (and, again, utena has the entire picture) is that Azul gives up to the forces of evil because she's taking pleasure on being abused. Azul HAS agency in this situation, and she uses her agency to give in to her desires and surrender to evil.

This is where it stops being a game and Utena breaks character by giving Azul the heroic speech. Again, Utena acts as the villain, but she ISNT the villain, breaking character is perfectly fine because Magia Baiser isn't who she wants to be, its a facade she's been forced to put and which she's learned to enjoy, but at the end of the day she does not want Tres Magia to lose.

For Utena to be a hypocrite, she would have to have both an active desire to defeat and break Magia Azul AND the agency to exercise that desire, as it stands she is a magical girl stan who loves seeing her heroes struggle but ultimately still wants them to win.

TLDR; People are calling Utena a hypocrite when she gave Azul a hero speech because she's the villain, but she isn't the villain, she just acts as a villain through blackmail, which is the basic premise of the series, might I remind you, the blackmail tag is right up there.

You can, however, absolutely call her out on enjoying beating up girls, the manga does too in the last page, this is a gag manga and thats the joke.

its wild to me we're talking about rape now, what are you people smoking

I mean. Baiser just made it clear she is literally averse to consent, at least as far as the Tres are concerned... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i wouldn't even call it that. More like she gets to see sides of them in fighting them that she wouldn't otherwise, and gets a thrill out of seeing them act heroic, rise up despite the difficulty. That's why she gets so pissed at Azul; Azul literally loses that resolve and force of will in front of her. While Utena says "i wanna see that face corrupted" when she actually sees it in Azul she's pissed off and disappointed.

Yap. Utena's very much wedded to the perpetuity of the hero-villain conflict cycle, and the participants dusting themselves off and soldiering on after defeats is a central part thereof. From her PoV Sayo/Azul is fundamentally breaking the rules of the game and going against the script. (Also the aforementioned questionable fetish of only wanting to see the Tres writhe at her feet if she beat them down there...)

It's really very meta.

Also damn! That Spanish Donkey wasn't something I expected!

No one expects the Spanish Donkey! Our chief weapon is surprise, fear and surprise; two chief weapons, fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Utena! Um, I'll come in again...

Also message at that first credits page was hilarious!

They're gonna work out a deal for special activities, I'm calling it now!

Use it like you want