You know full well had this been brought before a judge it would be disregarded.

That's hilarious.

Except for the brief period where he's trying to get her into bed, every single interaction between Tazune and Midori that we see fits the textbook definition of emotional abuse--putting her down in front of her friend and her colleague, calling her names, criticizing her physical appearance, calling the baby "gross," calling her "slow," etc.

Any one, maybe two, of these could be a guy being rude and callous--in a story where every incident is designed to reveal character, together they are an unmistakable pattern of abuse.

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.

I'm sorry--"unconvincing" was just a euphemism for "stupid and wrong."

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 2:33PM

Boy I sure can't wait till we get to the point in the story where Tazune is no longer in the picture so I don't have to scroll past pages and pages of people trying to argue minutiae about just what kind of dick he is or isn't.

You know full well had this been brought before a judge it would be disregarded.

That's hilarious.

Except for the brief period where he's trying to get her into bed, every single interaction between Tazune and Midori that we see fits the textbook definition of emotional abuse--putting her down in front of her friend and her colleague, calling her names, criticizing her physical appearance, calling the baby "gross," calling her "slow," etc.

Any one, maybe two, of these could be a guy being rude and callous--in a story where every incident is designed to reveal character, together they are an unmistakable pattern of abuse.

Man tries to have sex with his date. Calls girlfriend an idiot with a cute face. Told her fetuses look kinda gross. Please charge this man. Yeah, I don't see that going down. And you know you don't either.... As much as you wish it would.

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.

I'm sorry--"unconvincing" was just a euphemism for "stupid and wrong."

Trust me, the same would be said of your opinions outside of DS. Should have just said that and we could have stopped our exchange. I've no reason to try to change your mind and I'm not changing mine to make you feel better.

You know, the most ironic thing is that I dropped this whole debate pages ago as I ultimately agreed with the consensus after the latest chapter, but you guys just couldn't let go of the fact that the first 5 chapters didn't have enough information to call their relationship abusive so I've spent the past couple hours debating something that has already been settled.

StarKnight is working really hard to be worthy of that one month ban that's coming to him, doesn't he?

StarKnight is working really hard to be worthy of that one month ban that's coming to him, doesn't he?

Pray tell the rules I've violated.

How about everyone just drop it and move on.

Both things are pretty shitty, obviously. From what I see, commenters disagree about whether to put the blame on society or on Midori. The ones blaming her seem to be holding her personally responsible for being a shitty person, even though from a different perspective her only fault would be not being strong enough to reject the societal pressure.

oh, i see. i'm definitely in the midori sympathetic camp, then; with the way this manga is being presented we can definitely assume accepting herself as a lesbian (or a woman in a romatic relationship with another woman) would lead to a life of ostracism. i can't blame her for not wanting to deal with that.

And I said both characters were shitty and deserved each other. I never said she deserved to be abused. Paint the whole picture and don't lie by omission.

what midori did (submit to comphet) is very different and not at all on the same level as bad as what tazune did and does (misogyny)).

...and, to be very honest, i don't think being rejected by a few women and insulted by a bratty younger sister is even that big of a deal. the flashbacks weren't violent or anything. he's just perma-salty that no lady wanted to give him the business

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 3:25PM

...and, to be very honest, i don't think being rejected by a few women and insulted by a bratty younger sister is even that big of a deal. the flashbacks weren't violent or anything.

Yeah, you don't actually understand basic psychology much.

StarKnight is working really hard to be worthy of that one month ban that's coming to him, doesn't he?

Yeah. Nezchan has been inactive for the past 10 days, probably busy with rl (happens to the best of us), but sooner or later our moderator will be back... and then it'll be like with that other manga White Rose recalled. I doubt there will be much left of StarKnight's ranting against women victims of patriarchal heteronormative pressure, calling them idiots and shits and whatnot.

It could be argued both Midori and Tazune are victims of equally their respective childhood traumas and gendered cultural expectations they don't know how (or care) to interpret in benign ways and lack the courage or will to buck.

I think this is a really interesting take. Especially when the way in which they reacted to their traumas really meld well into those gendered cultural expectations. While not exactly the same as in the West, gender roles aren't too different in Japan. It only makes sense that in response to trauma Tazune coped by seeking control and putting himself at the top of power dynamics and abused others with little care for empathy, a really unhealthy but very toxically masculine way of coping. Midori on the other hand folds into passivity, powerlessness, and acceptance, same notion applies and thus Midori becomes a victim of the misogynistic expectations for women.

Where it gets interesting imho is with Maki involved. Maki is clearly kind of atypical beyond just her being a lesbian. Her coworker noted that her job is heavily dominated by old men beyond her and the coworker. Her second time meeting Midori is also unique in that Maki attempts to heavily emphasize her femininity, something that while nice was really different to Midori and according to whoever that is at the end of chapter 1, clearly not something Maki does (And maybe something she doesn't even like to typically do). I'm curious to see if more will develop with this theme and Maki specifically. Like I don't think she's butch, but it is interesting to see Maki as resistant to those gendered expectations in more ways than one and I'm curious to see if more will develop with this theme and Maki specifically.

||||||

Midori IS an idiot. That much is a fact. And I said both characters were shitty and deserved each other. I never said she deserved to be abused. Paint the whole picture and don't lie by omission.

How is she an idiot other than she ended up in an abusive relationship and she didn't just toss her life away, outing herself, and then eloping with some woman she dated 10 years ago and ran into by chance while pregnant with her coworker's kid? Yeah, definitely an idiot move there. Nothing bad could've happened with the latter.

Yes they are wrong, unless you've done a ratio of men to women perspective on this forum? Besides, its quite hypocritical to hammer on about misogyny and then turn around and claim men sympathise with and excuse domestic abusers.

You're looking for the word survey, not ratio. And do you not look at the news? Men are way more willing to defend abusers. They might not even mean anything bad about it. They're just apart of the dominate group in a misogynistic culture that devalues women standing up for themselves and abuse has been normalized. No not all men, hell some of the comments clearly show that, but looking at how class dynamics work, men are more likely to stick up for men.

Nobody cares about Tazune. ... The most interesting thing about it has been the discussion board.

Nobody cares about him and yet you wanted to play devil's advocate? Why? Hell you didn't even play devil's advocate, you were like "Wow, can't believe people are mad at a guy they feel is abusive right after the chapter where it ends on him clearly about to start an affair. Gotta insult the person they think is an abuse victim!" Like do you have a chip on your shoulder because people had the nerve to defend some girl character and say "Hey things are looking like Midori's an abuse victim with some bad trauma and the circumstances around choices don't make her an a shitty person". The reason why people are still getting onto you about this is because you were being totally obstinate and antagonistic when several other people were saying "This is abuse, why are you defending what's clearly an abuser?"

It's realistic and as a lesbian I really enjoy stories about women struggling with comphet and finding a better life and love :V Maybe you don't really get that, but you clearly don't get a lot of things.

||||

...and, to be very honest, i don't think being rejected by a few women and insulted by a bratty younger sister is even that big of a deal. the flashbacks weren't violent or anything.

Yeah, you don't actually understand basic psychology much.

Agreeing with Random here. Plus we got to keep in mind, this is all Battan decided to show. Chances are Tazune was bullied plenty in his youth, he was fat and surely people bullied him more and spread rumors about him being a creep or whatever. That sort of ostracization can lead to the sort of red pill type behavior when coupled with patriarchy.

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 3:41PM

No, it gave us insight into Tazune's mind, which is what I wanted to determine how he perceived his own actions or why he was insensitive.

Ah, so this is your criteria for distinguishing between "rudeness" and "abuse" that Blaastar was looking for: whether or not the abuser himself thinks it's abuse and continues doing it anyways. It's even worse than I could've imagined.

You came here haughtily telling me you didn't want to see some man explain abuse as though you own the board. Go back to your safe space if it bothers you so much.

I think I speak for almost every person in this thread other than you when I say that somebody mansplaining domestic abuse isn't welcome here. Ideally, a forum catering to media about women's love would be the safe space from that kind of garbage, which is why I mentioned that, and I'm disappointed you haven't been banned already.

You seem to think merely the capability of having an opinion makes it a valid opinion that instrinsically has equal merit to all other opinions. This is not the case. "The actions that constitute domestic abuse don't qualify as abuse unless the abuser thinks they do" is about on par with saying "I think black people are *******" and hiding behind "that's just my opinion, man. opinions can't be wrong", which is why I've been so vitriolic towards you. This kind of opinion needs to be shamed and shunned out of society, because social ostracision is regretfully the only way to fight back against these toxic mentalities.
(Or else convincing them of the error of their ways through logical reasoning, but we've long passed the point of viability there, I think)

In real life, we don't get these PoV panels from the abuser's perspective. Tazune was clearly meant to be depicted as an abuser from the beginning, and yet you were willing to forgive him and make excuses for his actions until we could literally read his mind. That's exactly the kind of behaviour that enables abusers in real life, because the point where we can read their mind never comes.

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 3:51PM by

StarKnight is working really hard to be worthy of that one month ban that's coming to him, doesn't he?

I doubt there will be much left of StarKnight's ranting against women victims of patriarchal heteronormative pressure, calling them idiots and shits and whatnot.

This is just a flat out lie.

And I said both characters were shitty and deserved each other. I never said she deserved to be abused. Paint the whole picture and don't lie by omission.

what midori did (submit to comphet) is very different and not at all on the same level as bad as what tazune did and does (misogyny)).

...and, to be very honest, i don't think being rejected by a few women and insulted by a bratty younger sister is even that big of a deal. the flashbacks weren't violent or anything. he's just perma-salty that no lady wanted to give him the business

Tazune's a POS, no doubt and while hurting Maki is horrible, they were both kids and in Japan. I get that. My issue is the fact that she didn't learn shit from it. She pops back up years later and invites Maki into her home to unload the baggage that came with her decisions. That's why she wanted Maki to stay for dinner right? To essentially say "here, look how shitty my husband is, and I'm pregnant with his child! Isn't my life horrible?". Which suffice to say is already selfish and manipulative. Maki now thinks herself weak for not saving Midori from her own decisions. They spend the night recanting their feelings for each other, which from an in-story POV is difficult to even determine if are legit from Midori or if she simply wants companionship and escape like she always had, only for Midori to tell Maki to congratulate her for her decisions and then distance herself once more so she can have her "happiness". Those are several insensitive and boneheaded decisions over and over again.

@Anjelika

Yeah, I'm gonna put an end to this here. I've already explained my definition of abuse on the page before and I mentioned it doesn't matter the abuser's intention but its clear your aren't bothered to read and I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I'm also not prepared to continue exchanges with a blatant sexist who thinks my gender disqualifies my input.

@Samcear
You're projecting a lot. You're the one with a chip. I said Tazune was a dick and Midori was a idiot, people tried to explain why its okay and reasonable she's the way she is, I responded by playing devil's advocate and said those same things could apply to Tazune, and you all flipped out and haven't stopped for several days. Meanwhile, the same people claiming how abused Midori is have been throwing ad hominems and sexist comments.

Again, I'll reiterate I had agreed with you all several pages ago but I guess I just didn't agree hard enough and from what I'm told that has something to do with my having a penis.

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 4:07PM

I've already explained my definition of abuse on the page before and I mentioned it doesn't matter the abuser's intention

Are you referring to this?

Abuse is systematic and repeated physical or emotional harassment by one in power of another, whether or not the intention is to harm the victim.

Because, uh, that's our boy Tazune right there.

I've already explained my definition of abuse on the page before and I mentioned it doesn't matter the abuser's intention

Are you referring to this?

Abuse is systematic and repeated physical or emotional harassment by one in power of another, whether or not the intention is to harm the victim.

Because, uh, that's our boy Tazune right there.

That indeed.

gives up on bothering reading the comments due to how long they are and how many there are

I've already explained my definition of abuse on the page before and I mentioned it doesn't matter the abuser's intention

Are you referring to this?

Abuse is systematic and repeated physical or emotional harassment by one in power of another, whether or not the intention is to harm the victim.

Because, uh, that's our boy Tazune right there.

That indeed.

Then you are either failing to apply your own definitions or working off some pretty bizarre meanings for the component parts.

I've already explained my definition of abuse on the page before and I mentioned it doesn't matter the abuser's intention

Are you referring to this?

Abuse is systematic and repeated physical or emotional harassment by one in power of another, whether or not the intention is to harm the victim.

Because, uh, that's our boy Tazune right there.

That indeed.

Then you are either failing to apply your own definitions or working off some pretty bizarre meanings for the component parts.

Thanks, but I think I've applied my definitions aptly.

Thanks, but I think I've applied my definitions aptly.

You have not.

trying to argue minutiae about just what kind of dick he is or isn't

character discussion is fun tho

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 5:18PM

You're projecting a lot. You're the one with a chip. ... something to do with my having a penis.

Yeah, sure I'm projecting. You first posted in this thread to defend Tazune and his comments about Midori, insult Midori and say she deserves her shitty life, then make some weird ass comments about how you're sick of people defending female characters? Maybe they're not defending irredeemable women or whatever, you're just stuck thinking they're awful people like how you are with Midori. Hell your analysis of what happened with her and Maki in the earlier chapters isn't even right. She wasn't unloading baggage or trying manipulate or whatever, she was reconnecting and reminiscing with an old friend while probably having some deeper feelings sitting in her subconscious for her that made her think about the shit they used to do that made her happy. From a story perspective it's beyond clear she actually still does like Maki, even if she's not aware of it. But you've demonstrated through your desire to play devil's advocate for Tazune and ignoring the fact that he's been throwing up red flags that he's abusive since his introduction that you really don't know how to analyze media, so I guess this makes sense.

People aren't being sexist for pointing out how a patriarchy and the people who are the dominate group in it tend to be. It's politics and sociology dude. Also no one mentioned your dick dude. We're pointing out how you defended an abuser and continue to be obstinate and shit talk Midori still. Notice how none of us got mad about the other posts from guys giving their thoughts about it? We might've disagreed, but none of them are being like how you are about it, so there's the difference. But yeah sure. We're just being sexist.

You're projecting a lot. You're the one with a chip. ... something to do with my having a penis.

Yeah, sure I'm projecting. You first posted in this thread to defend Tazune and his comments about Midori, insult Midori and say she deserves her shitty life, then make some weird ass comments about how you're sick of people defending female characters?

You're lying. Stop lying. I didn't defend anybody. The only person I cared about was Maki and I said this. This was my first post based on the first few chapters and while I admit it was a bit hostile but it was in no way the abuse-defence you're claiming it is. I said Tazune was horrible and I said Midori was horrible because I noticed her flaws just the same. You on the other hand refuse to acknowledge they even exist and that's far more problematic than anything I have said playing the devil's advocate to a man I pointed out was a bad husband.

Maybe they're not defending irredeemable women or whatever, you're just stuck thinking they're awful people like how you are with Midori. Hell your analysis of what happened with her and Maki in the earlier chapters isn't even right. She wasn't unloading baggage or trying manipulate or whatever, she was reconnecting and reminiscing with an old friend while probably having some deeper feelings sitting in her subconscious for her that made her think about the shit they used to do that made her happy.

She was not just reminiscing and you know it. She brought Maki to her home for a reason. She begged her to stay when Tazune was on his way home for a reason. Despite the fact that Midori told her nothing happened since they broke up she wanted her ex to meet her husband. She's well aware Tazune is a dickhead and she wanted Maki to see that. Why did she want her ex to see her fiance embarrass her? This is what sprouted my initial comment. The absolute refusal to acknowledged the flaws of female characters even in a manga you claim is grounded in reality for its handling of abuse.

From a story perspective it's beyond clear she actually still does like Maki, even if she's not aware of it.

From a story perspective what has shown you she legitimately likes Maki? I've no doubt that's where the manga is headed... but explain to me what in the story has shown you without doubt that she has legitimate feelings for Maki irrespective of her desire of the companionship and freedom she lost in her youth? In chapter 3 it looks like even Midori isn't sure herself.

But you've demonstrated through your desire to play devil's advocate for Tazune and ignoring the fact that he's been throwing up red flags that he's abusive since his introduction that you really don't know how to analyze media, so I guess this makes sense.

Are you capable of discourse without insults or is that just the go to when your arguments require exceptionalism? I honestly don't see how people expect ME to be the one punished with posts like these. Red flags and bona fide proof are two different things... do well to remember.

People aren't being sexist for pointing out how a patriarchy and the people who are the dominate group in it tend to be. It's politics and sociology dude. Also no one mentioned your dick dude. We're pointing out how you defended an abuser and continue to be obstinate and shit talk Midori still. Notice how none of us got mad about the other posts from guys giving their thoughts about it? We might've disagreed, but none of them are being like how you are about it, so there's the difference. But yeah sure. We're just being sexist.

How nice it must be to simply disregard a person's arguments as a product of the patriarchy. Claim a person's input is invalid because of his gender and then when checked on it. "Well, its not sexist because the patriarchy...!". What a laugh! By the by, still didn't defend Tazune, no matter how often you lie about it, it won't be true.

You didn't get mad at the other guys because they stopped posting and with a resounding echo-chamber of supporting replies you decreed a win. And some others said some really vile things that I abstained from about Midori too, but they stopped replying and that was that. I, on the other hand, kept responding and defending my position and more than the insults the incels threw out, that really seemed to have pissed you off. So much so that despite my agreeing that the relationship is abusive, you wouldn't let go of my earlier comments. So much so that you turned to blaming my gender for my opinions. What irony.

trying to argue minutiae about just what kind of dick he is or isn't

character discussion is fun tho

Yeah, but half-page novels between the same 2 or 3 people about how wrong someone is or isn't, over and over again, that was more what I meant.

trying to argue minutiae about just what kind of dick he is or isn't

character discussion is fun tho

Yeah, but half-page novels between the same 2 or 3 people about how wrong someone is or isn't, over and over again, that was more what I meant.

Sorry, I did try. I'll make that one my last.

Chale, el novio es un marica

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 7:48PM

Yeah I'm done with this discussion, it's going nowhere and has been going nowhere.

That said! Still really excited to see where this manga goes, especially with the whole theme of 'People trying to cope with traumas and gendered expectations" stuff.. Vaguely tempted to look for raws just to get an idea of what's happening next lmao