^^^ Like I said, the implication of a feeling of loss and lack is present in Touko's sentence. I just prefer implications to remain implications, a matter of preference I guess. "I miss her" is too strong when the expression is softer, which also emphazises the contradiction between Touko saying Yuu is not special to her anymore and then feeling lonely without her (a word that has been used by both Touko and Yuu in several chapters).

You're missing my point. There's a difference between "implied (but ambiguous)" and "implicit". The original japanese phrase is about feeling lonely because she's missing something. That she is missing Yuu is -implicit- but it is not ambiguous. Translating that to "I'm lonely" would -add- ambiguity to a scene that would not be ambiguous to a native japanese speaker.

Also, the contradiction IS the point. She's talking about how Yuu isn't "special" anymore, but she is demonstrating that she actually -is-. This is about how Touko doesn't understand her own feelings.

And you missed my point too. I never said there was meant to be an ambiguity. It is clear she feels Yuu is missing and it's painful, I agree that there's nothing ambiguous about that. It's just an implication, or it's implicit, whatever word you choose. "I feel lonely" already makes it clear in context that she feels lonely because Yuu is not with her anymore. I don't see why there should be any ambiguity on that kind of translation. And yes, the contradiction is the point, I said that, which is why IMO, saying "I am lonely" reinforces this contradiction more than "I miss her", the latter is stronger. We know Touko misses her, but for me it's better to keep the implicit connotation behind "I feel lonely" rather than outright stating it "I miss her".
We may not go anywhere with this argument because I did mention it's a matter of preference so we should agree to disagree.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 11:12AM

I am beginning to think that the emotional impasse in the story is leading us to take out our frustrations on each other. :)

That Touko in particular could use a good forehead flick, and a stern talking to.

And you missed my point too. I never said there was meant to be an ambiguity. It is clear she feels Yuu is missing and it's painful, I agree that there's nothing ambiguous about that. It's just an implication, or it's implicit, whatever word you choose. "I feel lonely" already makes it clear in context that she feels lonely because Yuu is not with her anymore. I don't see why there should be any ambiguity on that kind of translation. And yes, the contradiction is the point, I said that, which is why IMO, saying "I am lonely" reinforces this contradiction more than "I miss her", the latter is stronger. We know Touko misses her, but for me it's better to keep the implicit connotation behind "I feel lonely" rather than outright stating it "I miss her".
We may not go anywhere with this argument because I did mention it's a matter of preference so we should agree to disagree.

The phrase -doesn't- just mean "I feel lonely", in common use though. Just like when I say someone is hot, There is a meaning that extends beyond the literal definition of the words, that turn of phrase means "It's lonely without ____" with the subject of the sentence, in this case, being implicit in the context.

You can be lonely being alone after a breakup without actually missing your ex. "I'm lonely" could imply that she just wants to be with -someone-. In english, you could take that to imply that she's actually pretty ready for Sayaka's confession, but the Japanese, in context, doesn't suggest that. It suggests she misses Yuu specifically. This is why I say translating it as "I'm lonely" introduces ambiguity that isn't in the original japanese.

I am beginning to think that the emotional impasse in the story is leading us to take out our frustrations on each other. :)

That Touko in particular could use a good forehead flick, and a stern talking to.

Honestly, I think Touko is on the edge of an epiphany, and I suspect that Sayaka just gave her the missing ingredient to understand her own feelings. (You can keep loving someone if they turn out different than you expected.)

I don't know how long it will take her to process that, but I don't think it'll take too long.

The thing is more that when she comes back to Yuu, Yuu will probably have withdrawn from acknowledging her own feelings. She'll come back to Yuu, Yuu will have gone into "Oh don't worry about it, I was just confused, I really can't fall in love after all" mode, and the rest of the story will be about Touko trying to win back that trust and intimacy.

Touko is still in love with Yuu, and showed no such interest in Sayaka. Never mind that accepting Sayaka's confession would make no sense, it would also not be fair towards Sayaka herself.

Way back in the volume 2 (the one where Sayaka didn't show up at all or something) side chapter there was a flashback to their first year where Touko asks for Sayaka's advice on a confession from a girl, in which Touko says she... might be ok with dating a girl, but the bigger issue was obviously that she didn't want to date anybody.

After 37 and the likelihood that Touko has known for some time about Sayaka's interest I have a lot of questions up to and including that encounter. Like... was that Touko's making a gentle attempt at letting Sayaka down? Why did she keep Sayaka around? Did Sayaka's interest maybe spark something in Touko that Yuu was the beneficiary of? There's a bit of a gap there between "maybe" and Yuu...

You could also make the case that Touko is just a really, really horrible awful person if she knew and sort of exploited Sayaka on top of exploiting Yuu. But I really don't think its that simple. Although... I suppose comforting each other here is like opening the Panama canal to a SayakaYuu endgame... now that I type it I think I might actually be really into it...

Anyway.

The only question is whether we're at the bottom yet.

Well, I sincerely doubt Sayaka is going to be willing to continue to be friends with Touko after being rejected, especially given what I've seen about the LN.

Sorry, not sorry.

Look, like I wrote yesterday, you're beating me over the head with "story structure" to what I see as a character driven slice of life. So, to me you're expecting characters to act in unnatural ways to service a plot or story structure that doesn't exist in the way you're claiming it does. On top of that you're expecting Citrus and I'm expecting Macross. Actually that analogy should also lead to SayaYuu... but... no... can't...

I've said from the beginning that I do still think the series will end with Touko and Yuu, BTW.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 12:34PM

And you missed my point too. I never said there was meant to be an ambiguity. It is clear she feels Yuu is missing and it's painful, I agree that there's nothing ambiguous about that. It's just an implication, or it's implicit, whatever word you choose. "I feel lonely" already makes it clear in context that she feels lonely because Yuu is not with her anymore. I don't see why there should be any ambiguity on that kind of translation. And yes, the contradiction is the point, I said that, which is why IMO, saying "I am lonely" reinforces this contradiction more than "I miss her", the latter is stronger. We know Touko misses her, but for me it's better to keep the implicit connotation behind "I feel lonely" rather than outright stating it "I miss her".
We may not go anywhere with this argument because I did mention it's a matter of preference so we should agree to disagree.

The phrase -doesn't- just mean "I feel lonely", in common use though. Just like when I say someone is hot, There is a meaning that extends beyond the literal definition of the words, that turn of phrase means "It's lonely without ____" with the subject of the sentence, in this case, being implicit in the context.

You can be lonely being alone after a breakup without actually missing your ex. "I'm lonely" could imply that she just wants to be with -someone-. In english, you could take that to imply that she's actually pretty ready for Sayaka's confession, but the Japanese, in context, doesn't suggest that. It suggests she misses Yuu specifically. This is why I say translating it as "I'm lonely" introduces ambiguity that isn't in the original japanese.

"She just wants to be with someone" "ready to accept Sayaka's confession". Nah, that's stretching too much. If someone can actually read between the lines or at least look at the context and Touko's act of holding the keychain close to her while looking hurt, it should be obvious what she is referring to. I don't see any ambiguity in saying "I am lonely", maybe, like you said, it can be taken ambiguously in another context, not in this one. I don't think "I miss her" is the best TL either, but again, opinions.
My point wasn't even to say that it just means "I am lonely,". I kept mentioning the implications behind that line, which I think an average reader of the manga in English could grasp as well.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 12:50PM

Look, like I wrote yesterday, you're beating me over the head with "story structure" to what I see as a character driven slice of life.

On top of that you're expecting Citrus and I'm expecting Macross.

This is the kind of statement that makes your arguments incomprehensible to me—in terms of plot and story structure, YagaKimi is is the anti-Citrus.

Citrus set up a series of very specific problems and thematic questions:

• How can two stepsisters be together as lovers? How can Yuzu and Mei specifically come to understand each other?
• How can Mei deal with what she feels to be her responsibility to her traditionalist family?
• How can Mei and Yuzu avoid a scandal that will destroy the reputation of the family school?

(There are many other questions, to be sure, and other ways of rephrasing these. But these are there.)

Then the story just wanders around, introducing new characters (like Shirapon) and spending chapter after chapter on things like the fireworks festival, the trip to the mountains, etc. before reviving the arranged marriage issue more or less out of nowhere.

So how are these seemingly intractable personal and cultural problems ultimately resolved?—by handwaving them away in a series of silent panels right before a big, crowd-pleasing wedding scene. All the shippers were ecstatic; anyone who was interested in how the story was going to resolve the basic conflicts of the entire series got less than nothing.

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

Look, like I wrote yesterday, you're beating me over the head with "story structure" to what I see as a character driven slice of life.

On top of that you're expecting Citrus and I'm expecting Macross.

This is the kind of statement that makes your arguments incomprehensible to me—in terms of plot and story structure, YagaKimi is is the anti-Citrus.

Citrus set up a series of very specific problems and thematic questions:

• How can two stepsisters be together as lovers? How can Yuzu and Mei specifically come to understand each other?
• How can Mei deal with what she feels to be her responsibility to her traditionalist family?
• How can Mei and Yuzu avoid a scandal that will destroy the reputation of the family school?

(There are many other questions, to be sure, and other ways of rephrasing these. But these are there.)

Then the story just wanders around, introducing new characters (like Shirapon) and spending chapter after chapter on things like the fireworks festival, the trip to the mountains, etc. before reviving the arranged marriage issue more or less out of nowhere.

So how are these seemingly intractable personal and cultural problems ultimately resolved?—by handwaving them away in a series of silent panels right before a big, crowd-pleasing wedding scene. All the shippers were ecstatic; anyone who was interested in how the story was going to resolve the basic conflicts of the entire series got less than nothing.

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

Everyone, can we get a round of applause for @Blastaar here?
and, no, this question wasn't one made with sarcasm; I was serious
himself starts applauding

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 3:23PM

Yuu x Touko is the endgame of the series so am not too worried. But I also want Sayaka to be happy as well & stay best friend's with Touko even after her confession.
Am hoping Nakatani sensei is planing on having Sayaka fall in love with another girl that love's her back. And am also hoping she's planning on having that free-spirited girl from the light novel about Sayaka's past show up in the mainseries, cause that girl actually had feelings for Sayaka, unlike that senpai that used Sayaka as an outlet.

I think that Nakatani sensei has a plan to have Sayaka have her own happiness in the series too just as much as she does for Yuu & Touko.

Yuu x Touko is the endgame of the series so am not too worried. But I also want Sayaka to be happy as well & stay best friend's with Touko even after her confession.
Am hoping Nakatani sensei is planing on having Sayaka fall in love with another girl that love's her back. And am also hoping she's planning on having that free-spirited girl from the light novel about Sayaka's past show up in the mainseries, cause that girl actually had feelings for Sayaka, unlike that senpai that used Sayaka as an outlet.

I think that Nakatani sensei has a plan to have Sayaka have her own happiness in the series too just as much as she does for Yuu & Touko.

The part about Sayaka pairing up with that free-spirited girl is just wishful thinking... but it's a wishful thought that I also have.

Touko is still in love with Yuu, and showed no such interest in Sayaka. Never mind that accepting Sayaka's confession would make no sense, it would also not be fair towards Sayaka herself.

Way back in the volume 2 (the one where Sayaka didn't show up at all or something) side chapter there was a flashback to their first year where Touko asks for Sayaka's advice on a confession from a girl, in which Touko says she... might be ok with dating a girl, but the bigger issue was obviously that she didn't want to date anybody.

After 37 and the likelihood that Touko has known for some time about Sayaka's interest I have a lot of questions up to and including that encounter. Like... was that Touko's making a gentle attempt at letting Sayaka down? Why did she keep Sayaka around? Did Sayaka's interest maybe spark something in Touko that Yuu was the beneficiary of? There's a bit of a gap there between "maybe" and Yuu...

One thing I think many people are off base on, that I haven't gone into any depth on, is this assumption that Touko -knew-. I get why people might jump to that, and since it was one of the first things anybody said on this forum after seeing the new chapter, a lot of people have it stuck in their head. However, there's nothing in the text that suggests it. Just because she cuts off Sayaka before she confesses doesn't mean she always knew, it just means she knows in that moment.

Touko's not an idiot, but with Yuu we've seen that she can be a little blind to what other people are feeling. It's very probable that it just never occurred to her that Sayaka was into her -romantically-. Hell, it's possible that she only started reevaluating Sayaka's feelings because she so brutally misunderstood Yuu.

In fact, I would wager to say there's evidence in the chapter that suggests Touko was oblivious, or at least in denial, up until the moment of truth. When she helps Sayaka with the love charm....I mean her behavior in that scene is a little...irresponsible? If she knows or strongly suspects that she's the subject of Sayaka's feelings. She almost seems amused that Sayaka's even interested in something like that, and it's definitely inconsistent with the "Don't do it" that comes at confession time.

I would posit that she doesn't catch on until https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch37#19 this last panel. But, like, Sayaka ISN'T BEING SUBTLE. She grabs her hand, drags her up to a secluded place to see the night skyline alone together, and she's clearly working up the nerve to confess when Touko looks back at her.

Even if she had zero suspicions, (which is probably not the case) that is definitely enough for her to pick up on what's going on in time to cut her off.

If I was going to guess, I'd say she's probably had moments where she's wondered, just like there were moments where she wondered if Yuu was falling for her. But as long as it's plausible that you're wrong about your fears, it's human nature to push them out of your mind. So yeah, she's probably has had some moments where she's like "What was up with that arm grab?" "She sure seemed interested when she asked if I was against same-sex relationships" and the like, It's just not that much of a stretch to go "Nah, I'm thinking too much. She's just trying to be a good friend."

You could also make the case that Touko is just a really, really horrible awful person if she knew and sort of exploited Sayaka on top of exploiting Yuu. But I really don't think its that simple. Although... I suppose comforting each other here is like opening the Panama canal to a SayakaYuu endgame... now that I type it I think I might actually be really into it...

Anyway.

It's worth mentioning that she didn't even really mean to exploit Yuu. She was always very straightforward about what she wanted from Yuu and she held back from things she thought Yuu wouldn't like. Hell, even the whole "don't fall for me" thing wasn't actually part of the agreement at the start, but they both started getting more and more twisted up as they went along, and they were both afraid of speaking up about the growing conflict of interests.

Hell, Yuu was even the first one to lie when she said she didn't have any intention of falling in love with anyone. She said that to make Touko feel safe, but she -knew- that she actually really did want that feeling.

The only question is whether we're at the bottom yet.

Well, I sincerely doubt Sayaka is going to be willing to continue to be friends with Touko after being rejected, especially given what I've seen about the LN.

Sorry, not sorry.

Look, like I wrote yesterday, you're beating me over the head with "story structure" to what I see as a character driven slice of life.

Slice of life stories still have structure. In fact, Slice of life stories tend to be way more formulaic and episodic about it.

All stories have structure. It's one of the things writers have to learn to understand before they can write anything good.

Even when stories break from traditional structure, the authors do so with an understanding of the way they're subverting expectations. And this series....are you kidding me? With the build up, the pacing, the character dynamics, the meta commentary, the foreshadowing and visual callbacks?

This series doesn't just have structure, this series has ARCHITECTURE.

I mean, don't get me wrong, if you don't care about any of that, That's fine. You're allowed to enjoy things for whatever qualities you want, and if you just like the cute people struggling with love and stuff, that's fine.

But I promise it's there. ;p

So, to me you're expecting characters to act in unnatural ways to service a plot or story structure that doesn't exist in the way you're claiming it does.

I never said I was expecting characters to act in unnatural ways. In fact story structure is useless if the character's behaviors aren't also consistant and believable. That's why, when you plan the story, you make the characters who they need to be to serve the story, and then you set that up in advance. I think everything I've predicted is perfectly in keeping with who these characters are and who they are growing into.

On top of that you're expecting Citrus and I'm expecting Macross. Actually that analogy should also lead to SayaYuu... but... no... can't...

(tilts head) I'm...sorry, I don't see how that works. In fact that analogy almost makes me think your'e trolling again. (Edit: As in makes me think, as I think I joked before, that you're trolling, not that I think you're the person who was trolling before, who I am aware was a different person. Just wanted to clarify that) Macross definitely has structure! It does it better than Citrus does, in fact. Citrus did go through the whole "all is lost" thing at the end, but the ending itself was super rushed and kinda nonsensical. (I am expecting Yagakimi will resolve it better than Citrus did. It says something that I'm giving a series which -literally ends with pop star song magic saving the day- more credit for an organically structured conclusion than Citrus.)

Is Macross Delta really different or something? The other series all had really definite narrative arcs!

I've said from the beginning that I do still think the series will end with Touko and Yuu, BTW.

True enough, but what I disagree with is the suggestion that it could go either way. It isn't set up for that, IMPO. If you JUST look at the characters as people and think "what would they do", then sure, it's plausible. But that's the point. That's how it's built.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 4:02PM

Yuu x Touko is the endgame of the series so am not too worried. But I also want Sayaka to be happy as well & stay best friend's with Touko even after her confession.
Am hoping Nakatani sensei is planing on having Sayaka fall in love with another girl that love's her back. And am also hoping she's planning on having that free-spirited girl from the light novel about Sayaka's past show up in the mainseries, cause that girl actually had feelings for Sayaka, unlike that senpai that used Sayaka as an outlet.

I think that Nakatani sensei has a plan to have Sayaka have her own happiness in the series too just as much as she does for Yuu & Touko.

The part about Sayaka pairing up with that free-spirited girl is just wishful thinking... but it's a wishful thought that I also have.

I dunno. The original story with Baka-sempai does a well enough job of establishing Sayaka's sexuality. She didn't need another, earlier event showing that oh, actually, there was another girl even earlier...

I mean, there's reasons for doing it, like, maybe they wanted to clarify that, no, Baka-sempai, you are NOT the reason Sayaka is gay, or maybe they wanted to subvert the whole girl's-school trope, or maybe they just wanted to point out that some people know their sexuality at a very young age.

But it's also possible that they're setting her up so they can bring her back in a later book.

Honestly? I also kind of wonder if part of the reason for the novels might be because a second season of the anime might need more material, but that is DEFINITELY wishful thinking.

One thing I think people are off base on, that I haven't go into any depth on, is this assumption that Touko -knew-. I get why people might jump to that, And since it was one of the first things anybody said on this forum after seeing the new chapter, a lot of people have it stuck in their head. But there's nothing in the text that suggests it. Just because she cuts off Sayaka before she confesses doesn't mean she always knew, it just means she knows in that moment.

That was me, and I do now think that I was reading too quickly and was wrong about Touko previously being aware of Sayaka’s romantic feelings. But a couple of things:

It is at least odd that we’re positing a Touko who on the one hand is fairly clueless about how the people close to her are feeling (and there’s plenty of evidence for that), but who also is able to instantly grasp what Sayaka is about to say before she even says anything.

Maybe it’s because I’m used to the clueless leads in Korean dramas, who inevitably require any confession to be repeated before they even absorb what’s been said, but the staging/timing of that part of the scene seems a bit . . .suggestive of something, but I don’t quite know of what. (It would have been very reasonable to have staged it to allow Sayaka to get a couple of words out before Touko cut her off.) Notice also that at first Sayaka is in the lead going up the stairs, but for some reason Touko intentionally moves ahead of her so as to be waiting when Sayaka gets there.

Sayaka as friend: the text is very explicit. Touko knows that Sayaka would like to be closer to her, but doesn’t push it because she knows that’s what Touko wants. But there’s no suggestion that Touko perceives Sayaka’s interest as romantic, just that Touko keeps everyone at a certain distance, and having gotten closer to her than anyone else, Sayaka would be willing to be closer still.

As to why Touko “keeps Sayaka around,” it’s because they’re, you know, friends. Sayaka is a great person—she’s smart, loyal, reliable, and she respects Touko’s boundaries. What other reason would she need?

EDIT: And if Nakatani really wants to make a further callback to Yuu’s confession scene (the Touko/stairs/person-who-just-confessed shot doing a decent job of that already), we’ll get a replay of the entire sequence from Touko’s POV, which would clarify matters considerably. :)

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 4:45PM

"She just wants to be with someone" "ready to accept Sayaka's confession". Nah, that's stretching too much. If someone can actually read between the lines or at least look at the context and Touko's act of holding the keychain close to her while looking hurt, it should be obvious what she is referring to. I don't see any ambiguity in saying "I am lonely", maybe, like you said, it can be taken ambiguously in another context, not in this one. I don't think "I miss her" is the best TL either, but again, opinions.

Just adding my voice to say that "I miss her" is a pretty accurate translation in that it's what Touko intends to communicate, and translating it as "I'm lonely" erases that communicative intent. That an English reader could intuit a similar meaning is irrelevant - even if they come to the same conclusions, it's still not what Touko actually said.

"She just wants to be with someone" "ready to accept Sayaka's confession". Nah, that's stretching too much. If someone can actually read between the lines or at least look at the context and Touko's act of holding the keychain close to her while looking hurt, it should be obvious what she is referring to. I don't see any ambiguity in saying "I am lonely", maybe, like you said, it can be taken ambiguously in another context, not in this one. I don't think "I miss her" is the best TL either, but again, opinions.

Just adding my voice to say that "I miss her" is a pretty accurate translation in that it's what Touko intends to communicate, and translating it as "I'm lonely" erases that communicative intent. That an English reader could intuit a similar meaning is irrelevant - even if they come to the same conclusions, it's still not what Touko actually said.

English is actually my second language (my native one being Serbocroatobosniomontenegrin), but I agree.

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

I... didn't really know what else to say to the paragraph comparing Sayaka to Darth Vader.

In fact, I would wager to say there's evidence in the chapter that suggests Touko was oblivious, or at least in denial, up until the moment of truth. When she helps Sayaka with the love charm....I mean her behavior in that scene is a little...irresponsible? If she knows or strongly suspects that she's the subject of Sayaka's feelings. She almost seems amused that Sayaka's even interested in something like that, and it's definitely inconsistent with the "Don't do it" that comes at confession time.

I mean... her entire relationship with Yuu is irresponsible, so that's not exactly a stretch. And this is kind of a loaded topic in my experience because I think people want to believe she's oblivious, and with Yuu I think she is, but I don't think she's toying with Sayaka or something like that either. I guess in simplest terms I think she's convinced the genie will stay in the bottle when it comes to Sayaka's feelings.

It's worth mentioning that she didn't even really mean to exploit Yuu.

I don't actually think she did. But people seem to think I'm accusing Touko of being exploitative when I say she knew about Sayaka so I figured I'd run with it. And SayaYuu is sort of growing on me.

Slice of life stories still have structure. In fact, Slice of life stories tend to be way more formulaic and episodic about it.

I mean technically a sitcom or CGDCT is a slice of life but that's not what I'm referring to at all. I mean "slice of life" in much more of a 'Western' sense for lack of a better way to put it.

Is Macross Delta really different or something? The other series all had really definite narrative arcs!

I brought it up for its triangles, not its narratives. Most the series had pretty meaty triangles, but Delta actually had a rival with 0 chance I think you would have appreciated.

As to why Touko “keeps Sayaka around,” it’s because they’re, you know, friends.

Yeah but... Sakaya is almost definitely not going to be able to stay friends with Touko if/when she gets rejected and I think its pretty likely she'll bail on Student Council too.

Hurrah! The witch is dead! But... will Touko have lingering thoughts of Sayaka when she's gone? Hmmm.

Touko needing some time to deal with the emotional fallout of losing Sayaka (right after Yuu) is another reason I don't think a grand romantic gesture from her makes sense. I could see her exit sparking something like a slow "picking up the pieces" phase where Touko and Yuu begin to start over though.

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

I... didn't really know what else to say to the paragraph comparing Sayaka to Darth Vader.

The passage you quoted above came from an entirely different person than the one who mentioned Star Wars.

I wondered from the beginning (when you called Yuu an “aromantic pixie dream girl”) if we were both even reading the same manga or not. The blithe assumption that this series is a “slice of life” when it displays none of the well-established elements that characterize the slice of life genre made me question that even more. (And “slice of life in the Western sense” as I know it from literature and drama makes far less sense when applied to this story than does the manga term. It would be more accurate—which is to say, not accurate—to call this a “sports story,” since at least it has some sports in it.)

Now it’s clear that either we’re also not reading the same posts in this discussion thread or you’re simply trolling. I had previously assumed that anyone intelligent enough to use a computer keyboard would understand that the description of two different examples of “the point in the story when all seems lost for for the heroes” was not the same as saying “these characters are like each other.”

In either case, I think Yuu has summarized the situation quite eloquently: Whatever.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 9:29PM

If I'm conflating you and Heavensrun its because you've made a point of defending a number of their posts so I kind of have to assume you agree.

The blithe assumption that this series is a “slice of life” when it displays none of the well-established elements that characterize the slice of life genre made me question that even more.

I have no clue what you're talking about, but... from Wikipedia:

Slice of life describes the depiction of mundane experiences in art and entertainment.[1] In theater it refers to naturalism, while in literary parlance it is a narrative technique in which a seemingly arbitrary sequence of events in a character's life is presented, often lacking plot development, conflict and exposition, and often having an open ending.

If you want to call it trolling so be it, but you guys are trying to sell me on a conflict involving Sayaka that IMO doesn't exist.

ppl realy want a touko x sayaka end, i mean i understand why, sayaka is a cool character but come on the mental gymnastics to get them together are insane i expect that kind of stuff from mangas like NTR or citrus
the gimick of "i know i´ve been in love with you for the past 20+ chapters but you know what fuck it im gonna date this girl because we need drama and fake tension so the story can drag on another 10 chapters" is cheap and it´ll crush my heart to see yagakimi use this kind of bullshit
it´s fine to ship characters but people need to face reality you have doujins and fanart so stop pretending that touko acepting sayaka feelings make sense cuz i doesn´t

If I'm conflating you and Heavensrun its because you've made a point of defending a number of their posts so I kind of have to assume you agree.

The blithe assumption that this series is a “slice of life” when it displays none of the well-established elements that characterize the slice of life genre made me question that even more.

I have no clue what you're talking about, but... from Wikipedia:

Slice of life describes the depiction of mundane experiences in art and entertainment.[1] In theater it refers to naturalism, while in literary parlance it is a narrative technique in which a seemingly arbitrary sequence of events in a character's life is presented, often lacking plot development, conflict and exposition, and often having an open ending.

Right—this is my last post on this, because I no longer think that we have the slightest common ground that would make rational discussion possible. If you actually believe that this manga series is about an “arbitrary sequence of events in the character’s lives” and that it “lacks plot development, conflict, and exposition,” you truly are reading a series that exists only in your head.

It’s sometimes said about literary and art criticism that “there are no right or wrong answers,” but that’s not really true. There are many things that are arguable, but this is not one of them.

A “slice of life” story starts at a more-or-less random point and it observes the characters going through the mundane action of their everyday lives. It could also simply stop at almost any point—there’s almost no attention or concern about “what happens” or how things will ultimately turn out, because any changes that occur in the story will be subtle, and may not even be perceived by the characters themselves.

Nearly any scene, probably almost any random single page, of this manga series could be used to demonstrate that the above is not the case in this story. (And ‘naturalism’ as cited in that definition has a very specific meaning in literary criticism that has absolutely nothing to do with this manga series.)

I have no hope that any of this will be convincing to you, but, for personal and even professional reasons I feel compelled to say it anyway.

I hope you enjoy reading your story going forward.

wow anime fans really are hipsters AF i remember before the anime adaptation when this thread was full or reasonable people and some people that just enjoy the girl on girl action, now that the series got popular a lot of people out of nowhere just seems to hate yagakimi becuase ...............reasons......i guess
is not like in citrus where we knew all the time that was trash
lterally the second the anime got popular the series is now pretentious even thought the plot and the issues treated are so simple and relatable to the point that anyone can predict the next chapter
some people even consider bloom into you to be a slice of life even if the manga is clearly structured on arcs that lead one to another with permanet consequences to the plot
congratz guys you never let me down you sure are something

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 4:02AM

YagaKimi has a strong guided focused plot. Even if it were a slice-of-life it would be one with an actual plot. Those do exist. After all an excerpt of a life can also be a story in itself.

YagaKimi is obviously a psychological drama though, so calling it a SoL is very much missing the point.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 5:32AM

YagaKimi has a strong guided focused plot. Even if it were a slice-of-life it would be one with an actual plot. Those do exist. After all an excerpt of a life can also be a story in itself.

YagaKimi is obviously a psychological drama though, so calling it a SoL is very much missing the point.

I never said it didn't have a plot. But it hasn't been conflict driven for 37 chapters now and Sayaka has been presented as nothing but sympathetic, so to portray her as that which must be overcome by our "heroes" now just sounds like brainless shipping to me rather than sincere story analysis. And I'm pretty sure Blastaar is just hoping to bait me at this point so there's that too.

As I see it the series has been a slow, character driven (and definitely psychological) burn. And I honestly expect it to stay a slow, character driven burn until the end. Which is why I call it a slice of life. And I think people who are looking for some sort of grand drama over the next few chapters is pretty much setting themselves up for disappointment but... whatever.

Strayalive, 6 Jan:

Maybe its not really "shipping" but I think the biggest thing for me is that you, Heavensrun, and others think there's actually a plot and I think its a slice of life.

Strayalive, 8 Jan:

I never said it didn't have a plot.

Strayalive, 6 Jan:

Maybe its not really "shipping" but I think the biggest thing for me is that you, Heavensrun, and others think there's actually a plot and I think its a slice of life.

Strayalive, 8 Jan:

I never said it didn't have a plot.

@strayalive
OOF!