When botan slipped into itsukis arm like that. I just weeped. That's so precious.

Gosh, this is so much like Toradora Itsuki's "dead fish eyes" falling in love with the person you're not actually aiming for...either way I loved this manga and Toradora

Klice posted:

So you can see how it is possible that some people feel like this was sort of an asspull.

No, I can't.

Not necessarily only because of fan pressure, but perhaps the author had a goal in mind at first and also realised half-way through that from what she's written, it made "more sense" to have Itsuki fall for Botan in the end.

There wasn't any fan "pressure", Ookami Shounen isn't particularly popular. I don't know why you've gotta assume the worst of a writer who obviously had an intent simply because that intent was nonstandard. Why's it gotta be that he or she was pressured? Why's it gotta be that the direction changed or the story changed?

The entire story from the getgo was deliberately painted as cliche and fairytale. The characters themselves pointed out how Keitarou's feelings for Aoi were entirely undeserved. He assumed she didn't care about how he looked, but she did. He put on a disguise and hid his true self, such that she never knew his true self. There is no logical reasoning that would lead to a good romantic outcome from that, but also there doesn't have to be no romance in the story whatsoever.

Enter Botan, who HONESTLY doesn't care about how he looks. She gets along with him. She doesn't simply like him at first sight or contact, but finds his good points over time. In return Keitarou also notices the genuine rapport, and hey, again, she's actually someone capable of looking him in the eyes without flipping out about it. There's no fairytale trappings with their development AND it happened very early on (volume 2, I remind you). Botan wasn't introduced as a love interest, she was introduced as an annoyance (in volume 1). The only reason fans of the series ended up liking her was that the author wrote her to be likable. The only reason she ended up winning Keitarou's heart is because thematically, her winning his heart made the most sense. Nothing here was an accident.

I think it's fine if you just didn't like how it turned out different from what you expected but I guess I don't like how your criticism is worded. Good writing, planning, and sense of character relationships that goes against cliche and standard should be respected, not scoffed at.

last edited at Dec 10, 2017 11:49PM

No, I can't.

Well, I explained right above why I, at the very least, thought of it was coming kind of out of nowhere or not as something that could be an end game from the start. What follows kind of generally point to this direction as well.

I don't know why you've gotta assume the worst of a writer who obviously had an intent simply because that intent was nonstandard.

It's in the realm of the possibility, they would just need several discussions with close ones or very insistent fans. I could/should have also specified that it's also possible no one influenced them at all (don't know why I put she, I don't really know if it's the case, heh).

Why's it gotta be that he or she was pressured? Why's it gotta be that the direction changed or the story changed?

No reasons for the pressure question, it's just a possibility because, once again for the latter one, it didn't feel like it was going to end this way from the premise, from the attitude of the main male character. It was supposed, or felt like, to be a story about Tokujira and Itsuki from the start and then the last chapters happened, I'll talk about it later in my post.

The characters themselves pointed out how Keitarou's feelings for Aoi were entirely undeserved.

Did they? I don't recall it like that, perhaps I should read it again.

He assumed she didn't care about how he looked, but she did.

There could be more ridiculous reasons to be interested in/falling in love with an other individual, also Tokujira is kind of (really) beautiful from what it is said about her and the numerous confessions or even her title.

He put on a disguise and hid his true self, such that she never knew his true self. There is no logical reasoning that would lead to a good romantic outcome from that, but also there doesn't have to be no romance in the story whatsoever.

Fair enough, the disguise was an issue in itself from the beginning. It was one of the primary root of conflict in the story.

As I said, it all has to do with expectations. Why not make him see that despite her fear of men, despite her coldness towards him, she was deserving of those sentiment after all, heck, he spent the entire story trying to seduce her, through a proxy admittedly. And then when he finally succeeded, she could have as well realised he was somebody she could appreciate or even love, which she did; the important points being how it would have happened and how they would've gone past those troubles to help Tokujira go past her fear of men, finally opening herself to the world and for them to end up together or not, it could have ended non romantically in the end, even without Botan in the equation.

Enter Botan, who HONESTLY doesn't care about how he looks.

It's still a bit far away in my memories, but I kind of remember Botan honestly hating Ituski at first for both his personality and his looks that she found scary as everybody else. Only overtime, as you said, because he lied and used his girl persona did she start to warm up to him, mostly because he told her it was to help her very best friend - without female Itsuki (similar to Tokujira but later) she would have never accepted him, just like Tokujira.

There's no fairytale trappings with their development AND it happened very early on (volume 2, I remind you).

The development of their relationship began right from the moment they met, the development of their romantic feelings well.. For Botan, I agree, it happened early on, for Itsuki, it wasn't that obvious. I found her to be a (good hearted) annoyance for most of the story, because she was getting (involuntary) between Itsuki and Tokujira's relationship - typical triangle love issue.

The only reason she ended up winning Keitarou's heart is because thematically, her winning his heart made the most sense. Nothing here was an accident.

Now, even if I like tsunderes, it didn't work for me and she still felt as an hindrance. I still cared more for Tokujira and wanted her to be happy, possibly with Itsuki because they genuinely felt things for each other, even if it was based on a lie - as was the reason Botan started to accept him and ultimately fell for him.
I didn't feel Itsuki was falling for Botan at all, it didn't make sense to me either because of how the story was playing it out. What made sense was that Botan was a really good friend not necessarily a good love interest. But then chapter 29 and afterwards happened.

The fact that fans of Botan were afraid that she wouldn't be end game is a pretty good indication as to why some people (me included) found that Itsuki falling for her was coming kind out of nowhere. It can makes sense, yes, but having Itsuki be with Tokijura in the end could made sense as well. Even if it was her intent from the start, it didn't feel like it to me.

[...] I don't like how your criticism is worded. Good writing, planning, and sense of character relationships that goes against cliche and standard should be respected, not scoffed at.

The only thing I'm scoffing at is the final chapter that feels like a middle finger to the entire story. I cared more about Tokujira, she was at the centre of the entire intrigue, she and her problems were the driving force of the story, the reason why Itsuki went into trap mode and did everything he did with Tokujira and Botan - heck she even is the reason they found each other in the end and she suffered for it. So when the final chapter is focused on a bland and uninteresting problem between Itsuki and Botan, and the only major thing happening is their date with Itsuki going all stupidly "omigod she's so cuuutee ;3;"... In a story with drama and heavy feelings, it felt kind out of place and not so cute to me at all, just cheesy kind of bleeeh romance, not the good cheesy kind.

I felt kind of robbed because them ending up together wasn't (or didn't look like) the goal of the story so why focus on it in the last (three) chapter(s)? There were no pay offs for Tokujira's part of the story, we only have vague mentions that she is smiling more and having fun taking care of a kouhai, whoop dee doo, but what about it? Has she really completely gone past her fear of men? Why her smile when she looks at her kouhai is framed like that? etc.

There is cute moments though when we see Tokujira joke about being the one that was dumped and about going out on a date with him crossdressed again (and what I already mentioned) so that was pretty good, but I want to see more of how it affects them. Yes, this last chapter felt like a waste, a bit too rushed.

That said, I'm not really convinced their writing was that clever nor innovative; how is having the guy falling for the "girl who truly cared for his true self from the beginning" is going against cliché? Not that I have anything against clichés, if they're done well they're pretty fine in my book. But again, overall I really loved this story or I wouldn't be writing so much about it.

last edited at Dec 11, 2017 8:45AM

Read this from start to finish but only after reading the comments and I was really interested in this, mostly cause of the fact that the MC didnt get with the main girl he was set out on and with someone else which I've always wanted to see in a manga

What I liked about this is that the big reveal really did mess them both up, and it wasnt just brushed away. Though the random cross dressing chapters after that were a bit jarring. I did like that MC and Boton got together as that seemed like a natural conclusion to happen, probably something that the artist didnt set out to do but I'm glad they went this route

I didnt like how they treated the main girl though, I think it wouldve been way more interesting if she turned out to be gay and just hadnt realised it, instead of having weird trauma over seeing guys faces with a lacking backstory. But thats me being super biased haha. The throwing up after the "yuri kiss" was a big disappointment, but lol gay jokes

The throwing up after the "yuri kiss" was a big disappointment, but lol gay jokes

I'm pretty sure she threw up because Itsuki's a guy under the crossdressing, she only reacts like that because she hates guys and somehow her body can tell that he is manly under all the clothes, just a reflex I guess

Maybe she is gay, who knows

last edited at Dec 11, 2017 8:57PM

[...] I think it wouldve been way more interesting if she turned out to be gay and just hadnt realised it, instead of having weird trauma over seeing guys faces with a lacking backstory.

&

Maybe she is gay, who knows

It does seem to me that it is the case but maybe my yuri goggles power is set too high. I don't mind yuri bait, but I mind the fact that they kind of put her on the side for the conclusion. It misses two chapters.

I don't mind the fear of men though, both aren't exclusives.

last edited at Dec 12, 2017 11:16PM

Klice posted:

Reality/believable stuff doesn't always make for interesting stories. It all depends on the writings, how things are played out and, most importantly, on the expectations of the reader (the one giving their opinion).

When people say believable/realistic, they don't always mean it would 100% happen in real life. There is still a lot things that are crafted specifically so the story will flow and reader will enjoy it, even if they would never happen in real life. Good author will make it so reader won't notice too much coincidences etc. because they enjoy the story, drama etc. too much to really focus on that. What they usually mean is that it feels real. That story follows the logical progression you can understand and follow (or sometimes the story is simply straight realistic about things it decapitates). Manga cuts most of mundane, boring and irrelevant stuff. Best example are dialogues which irl usually are a 1 huge mess, but in manga when they are too disjoined or disorganized, people complain it drags, there is too much text etc.. On the other side, people underestimated how random and unpredictable life can sometimes be. Not everything is always set up and follow perfect path. Weird coincidences and random tragedies do occur sometimes. So in the end, it is all about how much reader can buy into the work author presents.

The thing is, when I first started reading I was expecting a story about Tokujira finally getting over her fear of men and Itsuki finally having his feelings for her requited despite all the struggles they would went through - or, during the event of the story, Tokujira finding some kind of solace.

I think that is the issue, you had certain expectations and that story didn't meet them hence you are upset. That is not necessary your fault though. I feel like a lot of it steams from the way most mangas, especially romance ones, work. We are taught to believe the first character MC fails in love with will be the one they end up with. Hell most of the time the whole story is only about them getting together. As if that was the most interesting thing about love. That is why most romance stories drag forever, adding next struggles and prolonging the main couple from ending up together, because they second they do, the series will end. There are often times when they actually go on after that point, but then the other problem kicks in. Instead of actually writing about their love for each other and struggles with being a couple (or their lovely dovely fluffy love live, I wouldn't mind that too), author usually comes up with (or is forced to) with some new drama, usually totally forced (look my first paragraph), that threaten the couples existence. Parents don't approve, someone blackmails one of them to break up, new person shows up and tries to break them apart, there is some asinine reason why they can't be together etc. Only after they overcome all that (so when it got axed, because series popularity drops, cos let's be honest nobody tries to drag their series as long as possible, unless they want money or they simply have no idea what to do with it) they can be finally together and then series ends. And why readers care? Because they like the main couple and want them to be together. We were taught that there will always be issues, but once they overcome them all, they will be together. That is how it goes. That is why everytime the series actually has balls and don't go this cliche way, we feel as if we were tricked. That is not what we were promised! They main couple has to get together! And that is a big issue. With manga industry in general. Instead of writing good stories, there is too much focus on doing what will sell, on going with proven formulas people will like. I'm not saying every series who does it is bad, or that whenever a series does it it is a good idea. I'm simply tired of everyone following the same safe and tested cliches and people eating it up, that nobody actually tries to break them, and of course usually when they do, they work doesn't sell.

[...] resulting in countless agonizing love triangle plots where you just KNOW the most wonderful characters have no chance of winning.

Well, who's to say which is the most wonderful character? That's what makes love triangle interesting both in and out of the story if they're done well.

I never read any good love triangle. In fact I hate them exactly because they are the worse cliche ever. They 99% of the time are used only for creating drama and making people wonder who the MC will end up with. And the worse fact is, we always know how they will end up with. Because as I said, we are taught the first person they fallen for, will be the one, that is why love triangles never work, because we already know who we were promised to get. And why they are so freaking painful to read, because we know in the end other person had never chance to begin with. Especially when we get rival suddenly introduced in middle of they story (or as I mentioned before, once couple actually got together). If there will be ever a good love triangle story, then I won't read it either way, because it is shitty scenario in the first place, where no matter what (unless poly option) someone will get hurt and if you actually make all 3 characters likable, then it hurts twice as much.

Because the feelings and memories you experienced as a kid are the most reliable things to base your entire life around.

I know this was supposed to be sarcastic or something, but I think this is closer to reality than what you'd like/think. It's not something we do consciously, but almost everything we do and how we act is probably based on or influenced by what happened during our childhood (education, traumas, people looking for one of their parents in their love partner, etc.), so in the end... it may be more realistic than what you let on - but I agree, it's not reliable.

I was trying really hard to phrase it in a way nobody can grip about it, but as usually someone did. I'm fully aware of it, but as you said yourself, it is mostly stuff we learn subconsciously. But even if, I was specifically talking about your experiences with love. How many times kids would say they will marry each other when they will grow up, or hell, they would say it to adults or older teens/young adults? Does anyone ever take it seriously? No, because it is just kid talking. They got no clue what they are talking about. In fact only in manga those kind of promises are actually ultra serious and people get buthurt over forgetting about them. In fact most of the time when you grow up you either forgot about it yourself or you are totally embarrassed everytime someone does bring it up. I'm hard pressed to believe anyone takes their first love or dating or whatever when they were little kid too seriously or even remember about it. And yet mangas
usually put them on pedestal. Your first love shape your entire life. The person you first fallen in love is basically your fate and you have to end up with them. In general this whole issue seems to come from the fact, that so many mangas idealize the first love and follow the rule of person who fallen for someone first win. Sure you can have strong feelings, but they can change or fade with time more often than mangas are willing to admit.

Klice posted:

He assumed she didn't care about how he looked, but she did.

There could be more ridiculous reasons to be interested in/falling in love with an other individual, also Tokujira is kind of (really) beautiful from what it is said about her and the numerous confessions or even her title.

It is still true his first impression turned out to be wrong, and it did affect his perception of her. She wasn't the person he thought she was and he admitted it (and also got hurt over her being no different than rest). About looks, don't even go there. That is like the reason they like each other for vast majority of romance mangas "He/she is so handsome/pretty, I'm getting hard/wet". Sure, the look is what we see first, but in the long run the personality is what matters and it seems not much manga actually bother to acknowledge it. Even if he considered her pretty, once he got to know her, he realized they had no chemistry. Isn't that kinda more important? By saying he still totally could fall for her because she was pretty, you are lowering the quality of this story significantly.

As I said, it all has to do with expectations. Why not make him see that despite her fear of men, despite her coldness towards him, she was deserving of those sentiment after all, heck, he spent the entire story trying to seduce her, through a proxy admittedly. And then when he finally succeeded, she could have as well realised he was somebody she could appreciate or even love, which she did; the important points being how it would have happened and how they would've gone past those troubles to help Tokujira go past her fear of men, finally opening herself to the world and for them to end up together or not, it could have ended non romantically in the end, even without Botan in the equation.

Well, it simply seems like author failed to write the story you wanted to read. You should write the better version yourself then.

I was dumbstruck a year ago with this, "the first two characters introduced will end up", mentality in manga. True, most of them are! Tbh, I didn't read this manga since I had watched enough movies already with this kind of plot. Though, it has its twist but nonetheless, never strike a tune with me. However, with the comments, I've read a few chapters but dropped it. On the contrary, with the author not ending with the usual mindset, kudos!

Best ending. Really respect that :D

All right, took more time than I thought. It's pretty long, but I thought it deserved that much!

When people say believable/real...hor presents.

Wholeheartedly agree with almost all of it. Especially these sentences :

Not everything is always set up and follow perfect path. Weird coincidences and random tragedies do occur sometimes.

when people claim about situations not being realistic. Though I guess it has more to do with what you'd think would happen or what you'd like to happen.

We are taught to believe the first character MC fails in love with will be the one they end up with. Hell most of the time the whole story is only about them getting together. As if that was the most interesting thing about love.

Well, when that was promised for 28 chapters with the MC chasing after Tokijura, yes I am a bit disappointed to see him do a 180° turn without some sort of foreshadowing. From what I remember, I never had the impression Itsuki was interested in Botan romantically, or that he was struggling between the two. Perhaps I should read it again, but except a good buddy friendship I didn't feel anything else. That's why I, and others, have said that Botan being with Itsuki felt like fan service (to not use the term asspull).

Of course, it's only impressions, perhaps others saw signs where I did not. Even if I think it was just matter of preferences (Botan over Tokujira). The inverse could be true.

I think that is the issue, you had certain expectations and that story didn't meet them hence you are upset.

Obviously, but not only for the reasons you're talking about. My main issue is how Tokujira was brushed off as a side character when she was the centre of the intrigue for the whole time, the driving force of the plot. I mean, I didn't feel the main issue/goal of the story was to resolve a love triangle but it felt like this in the end - hence why I feel upset/ripped off/whatever.

Then again, I can understand why Itsuki would fall for Botan and Tokujira, both have their appeal, it can make sense in both cases. It just felt that during the story, many people, including the author, began to like Botan (a lot) more, so I have the feeling the author decided to change their plan. If it was intended from the start, it didn't show for me. Perhaps it went over my head, but I'll have a hard believing it considering how late the twist happened and how rushed the end felt.

Instead of actually writing about their love for each other and struggles with being a couple (or their lovely dovely fluffy love live, I wouldn't mind that too), author usually comes up with (or is forced to) with some new drama, usually totally forced (look my first paragraph), that threaten the couples existence.

It's a matter of preference of course. I tend to prefer the beginning of a story or things that happened before to better understand what's happening now. Also, I prefer a story with struggles than fluffy stuff all the way. There is a sense of wish-fulfliment : it is somewhat liberating/more satisfying to see people succeed despite everything that hit them.

That said, I don't mind fluff stuff like Yuri Mekuru Hibi or Bright and Cheery amnesia, examples that first come to mind. I want to read stuff that makes me feel things in general, but that last chapter, bleh it was just boring.

I'm simply tired of everyone following the same safe and tested cliches and people eating it up, that nobody actually tries to break them, [...]

I don't like when people complain about clichés and tropes. Especially when it comes to romance which is probably the most dried-out genre out there. It always end up in disdain claims about this and that. Just like what follows :

The fact that he ends up with Botan is as cliché as him finally getting with the main girl, "protagonist was aiming for the girl/boy everybody wants/of their dream but realised true love was next to them from the beginning". It's the same thing you can see in countless (crappy) romantic comedy that plagues TV films - it's hardly breaking any clichés.

But that's not what is important to me, the delivery is. I didn't completely like this one, sadly for me. I can salute originality when it happens though. That said, it's more risky, hence why it doesn't sell well, sadly.

In fact only in manga those kind of promises are actually ultra serious and people get buthurt over forgetting about them.

Not exclusively! There is this (good) French drama film called Jeux d'enfants, or Love Me If You Dare in English, that explores this very issue.

Sure you can have strong feelings, but they can change or fade with time more often than mangas are willing to admit.

They don't have to admit anything because they are stories, so they can tell anything they want, they don't have to stick to what would happen in real life. That was what my speech on realism was kind of about. That said, I don't mind stories with a more realistic approach and with less wish-fulfilment. However, giving up on a love and dealing with failures can be hard things to do, people probably don't want to deal with that kind of stuff when they read fiction (some sort of escapism). I don't mind because I love angst, I love dramas. Just that in this case, I didn't like the delivery.

Otherwise I kind of agree with what you said in this paragraph.

Even if he considered her pretty, once he got to know her, he realized they had no chemistry. Isn't that kinda more important?

I'm talking about first impressions. Of course personality counts in the long run, but how can you be attracted to somebody because of their personality if you don't know them? That's why he went to see her and tried to know her, to see if it could work out, because she's beautiful (to him) and could look him in the eye without being afraid/feeling disgust.

They had a good chemistry as well, that's why it is painful for both of them (well it's far more painful for Tokujira) and Tokujira's "supporters" when he finally chooses Botan. Yes, it happened while he was dressed as a girl but it was still his acts and thoughts behind it, and that's the reason why it couldn't have worked unless she also loved him in his boy version; which she happened to do in the end but, sadly for her, Botan was there as well and fall for boy Itsuki at the same time.

By saying he still totally could fall for her because she was pretty, you are lowering the quality of this story significantly.

No, love at first sight happens and is purely physical - how would it be bad/lowering the quality of anything? Beauty is important, there's just all different kind of beauty to be appreciated. What would be shallow is to continue a relationship only based on a physical link. Physical love is important and beautiful in itself, it's another kind of communication. I'm not talking about pure physical gratification but something with emotions and feelings.

Heck, the only thing Itsuki is thinking about Botan during their date in that last chapter is "OMIGOSH she's so cuuuuuute o(>ω<)o" - you can blame the author as well, if you want to.

Well, it simply seems like author failed to write the story you wanted to read. You should write the better version yourself then.

Gee whiz! I guess I really should finish that doujin project I have before ever criticising another story. Better work on my baguette baking skills as well, lest I dare criticise the uncooked crap some big companies sell. Thanks!

More seriously, though, I was just trying to show that there was a way for the story to end up with a happy romantic outcome between Tokujira and Itsuki - contrary to what was claimed in the text I cited (special mention to the "logical reasoning" about love and romantic interaction, though).

last edited at Dec 19, 2017 2:50PM

Maybe Itsuki ended up with Botan because she loved him for who he was, Tokujira loved him because of his other persona

Anyway, I don't think it would've been fun for Itsuki to dress up as a girl every time he has to hang out with Tokujira if they ended up together, heck she even asked to go on a date together with him cross-dressing just seeing that it makes me think Tokujira really shouldn't have ended up with Itsuki...might as well have her end up with a girl or something so we get yuri lol

last edited at Dec 20, 2017 1:53AM

Klice posted:

Though I guess it has more to do with what you'd think would happen or what you'd like to happen.

Yea. That was my point with what people mean when they say realistic. That it feels realistic and natural. We are so used to all the rules of storytelling etc. that we forgot real life has no rules. Some real life stories come off as unrealistic, because of how messy and unpredictable life can be.

My main issue is how Tokujira was brushed off as a side character when she was the centre of the intrigue for the whole time, the driving force of the plot. I mean, I didn't feel the main issue/goal of the story was to resolve a love triangle but it felt like this in the end - hence why I feel upset/ripped off/whatever.

In your case I understand you have actual issues with how the story was told. That is why I never specifically said it was only reason that made you dislike the story. I was mostly talking in general, but I do think what we are used to see still affected your enjoyment in some way, especially since you were the one to mention how you had certain expectations based on series premise. I assume you assuming the series will go certain way is influenced by how we are expecting those kind of stories to go.

It's a matter of preference of course. I tend to prefer the beginning of a story or things that happened before to better understand what's happening now. Also, I prefer a story with struggles than fluffy stuff all the way. There is a sense of wish-fulfliment : it is somewhat liberating/more satisfying to see people succeed despite everything that hit them.

I didn't mean story shouldn't have any conflict at all. And usually I don't mind seeing how characters meet and fallen for each other. It can be pretty entertaining too. My point was more that vast majority focus only on that, and even when they reach the point where they could naturally shift to couples life, they still prefer to force drama upon them instead of focusing on their actual love life (which can still have struggles, that come from normal life and living as a couple, not from some outside forces). And once all dramas are finally solved, story ends so we never really get to see them as a couple. And my main point was because most stories are like that, we are more used to that kind of story structure. Main couple will have struggles, but in the end they will overcome it all and them being finally together and happy is our reward as a readers. That is why when story doesn't follow it and changes the love interest at some point, we feel betrayed because we are not used to that kind of development. I'm not saying this story done it well, just that it can be factor in feeling cheated.

I don't like when people complain about clichés and tropes. Especially when it comes to romance which is probably the most dried-out genre out there.

But that's not what is important to me, the delivery is.

I was talking in general. My issue isn't with using cliches at all. It is which one are used and how they are executed. My problem is there is few specific one people overuse to death, but the worse part they are all done exactly the same. I know everything was done before and nothing is really original (which only works when you bring it down to the simplest of descriptions), that is why which one you use and how you use them is so important. You can still create something original with right mixture of elements and putting some spins on them. My issue with most romance story is that they are stall. They don't try to innovate or be original at all. They simply use the same tested formulas that will guarantee them readers.

Sure you can have strong feelings, but they can change or fade with time more often than mangas are willing to admit.

They don't have to admit anything because they are stories, so they can tell anything they want, they don't have to stick to what would happen in real life. That was what my speech on realism was kind of about. That said, I don't mind stories with a more realistic approach and with less wish-fulfilment. However, giving up on a love and dealing with failures can be hard things to do, people probably don't want to deal with that kind of stuff when they read fiction (some sort of escapism). I don't mind because I love angst, I love dramas.

Yes, I get that. My point was again that too many stories take it so seriously and so little treat it more realistic. And I don't even mean how it really would be, but just don't idealize it so yuri damn much. Again, it is about story feeling believable to reader (me). I read enough of those which feel like some kind of fairytale, now I want to read something that feels more real, but still in story sense of real. And you seems to start mixing it up. Something being more believable, doesn't automatically make it not a wish-fulfillment (or maybe you use it in some different meaning). I guess I'm just tired of stories for kids and want to read something more development. I totally understand that sometimes you want to read something fluffy, but sometimes you want something realistic (like real life) or sometimes straight dramatic/angsty. It all depends on the mood you are in. I'm not saying all the stories have to be write this way. I just want more stories to actually try harder. Again, I understand they are stories and they are crafted certain way. I simply got enough of this specific way of crafting them and wish to see something different.

I'm talking about first impressions. Of course personality counts in the long run, but how can you be attracted to somebody because of their personality if you don't know them? That's why he went to see her and tried to know her, to see if it could work out, because she's beautiful (to him) and could look him in the eye without being afraid/feeling disgust.

His first impression was that he thought she finally looked right into his eyes without being scared by him. Her being pretty wasn't important. You make it sound like simply because she is pretty it automatically make her worth falling for. So what? If she was ugly there would be no point trying to see her personality, but because she is pretty it is worth giving a shot? No, he thought she was someone who can look past appearance. Don't you think it would be pretty ironic if his reason for initially going for her was because she is pretty?

No, love at first sight happens and is purely physical - how would it be bad/lowering the quality of anything? Beauty is important, there's just all different kind of beauty to be appreciated. What would be shallow is to continue a relationship only based on a physical link. Physical love is important and beautiful in itself, it's another kind of communication. I'm not talking about pure physical gratification but something with emotions and feelings.

I don't believe in love at first sight. I think this love is worthless and never true. Your look is only smart part of you. What is the most important is your personality. Yes, you can't see or fall for personality at first sight (ok, you could argue you could fall for something that person did making a great first impression on you), that is why you can't fall for someone at first sight. You need to know them first to fall for them. That is why I think love at first sight is useless, because in the end, it tells you almost nothing about the person. You just had a physical reaction to their body/beauty. You would have to have insane luck to find someone who is both exactly your type and also have personality you click with. What I meant, that is how most of romance story goes. They fallen for each other, because of their looks and got together because of it and it usually ends up at that. They never really develop their relationship further, all that matters to them is that their lover is beautiful. Sure, here they don't stop at this, but that is why when you are saying "but she is pretty, that is reason enough to fall for her!" it lowers the quality of the story to that lvl for me. I'm most likely jaded about it, because I'm ugly and I know for a fact, nobody will ever fall for me at first sight so I value personality much more than looks. If I had been pretty I'd probably had no issue with it and tell everyone that is just how it works.

Heck, the only thing Itsuki is thinking about Botan during their date in that last chapter is "OMIGOSH she's so cuuuuuute o(>ω<)o" - you can blame the author as well, if you want to.

I'm sure he meant it more in the "she acts adorable" thing (like what most people liking Botan thought).

Gee whiz! I guess I really should finish that doujin project I have before ever criticising another story. Better work on my baguette baking skills as well, lest I dare criticise the uncooked crap some big companies sell. Thanks!

And you again missed my point entirely. I wasn't saying you can't criticize the story without writing something better. I said, author failed to deliver what you expected, so if you want to read that story, your only option is to write it yourself. That is how I decided to start writing manga. Because I started to read next story and saw potential and my imagination ran wild, but then story went into different direction or didn't go the way I thought it will and felt disappointed. Or I read something which had good idea, but I felt like it's potential was totally wasted or poorly executed. Finding a work written by someone else that will fit exactly into what you want to see or go the exact way you want it to go is really hard, so at some point I realized, if I want to see those stories I want to read, the only options is to write them yourself. So I actually 100% feel your frustration and can sympathize with you. I didn't try to criticize you for wanting it to end differently. In fact I see your point. We don't know what really happened, if the reason it was rushed was because author decided to change the course or they actually planned it, but were rushed because series was axed and that is why there was so little development between Botan and Itsuki. So the way you approached it with accusing author of simply pandering to fans was pretty unfair.

Maybe Itsuki ended up with Botan because she loved him for who he was, Tokujira loved him because of his other persona

Basically yes, even if it was Itsuki all along, just his external appearance that changed. But once again, that wasn't addressed, Tokujira was brushed aside to focus on... well, I'm just repeating myself now.

And yes also to your other point that was left out.

---

I assume you assuming the series will go certain way is influenced by how we are expecting those kind of stories to go.

I'm not entirely convinced about that. To be honest, I accepted Botan's route when Tokujira was crying (I was crying (internally) alongside her, but I have the feeling I was the only one...), so yeah it was a disappointment but not my main grudge.

I'm just nitpicking right now, but I think I should specify that I care more about Tokujira than Itsuki (if that wasn't already obvious). Similarly as in Gamers! where I was rooting for Tendou not because she would be the best for the MC, but because it was what she wanted, I cared more about her and her happiness than what was "the best" for the MC (which was the main argument of the other girl's fans).

So I guess the situation is pretty much the same in here. I was more concerned about what happened to Tokujira, first and foremost, and about Itsuki and what happened between them, Edit This was confusing and kind of wrong, what I was trying to say is that I didn't feel like Itsuki was torn between the two. than about the resolution of the love triangle I didn't think existed in the first place. In the end, the story was resolved for one of the two MCs, but not for my favourite one.

That is why when story doesn't follow it and changes the love interest at some point, we feel betrayed because we are not used to that kind of development. I'm not saying this story done it well, just that it can be factor in feeling cheated.

Fair enough.

(which only works when you bring it down to the simplest of descriptions)

Naturally, I forgot to mention that, thanks for clarifying it.

My issue with most romance story is that they are stall. They don't try to innovate or be original at all. They simply use the same tested formulas that will guarantee them readers.

That is my issue with how they treated Itsuki and Botan's romance in the last chapter. I think it ended way too early and the switch happened way too quickly, but I already wrote plenty about that.

For the second part, I guess originality could come with the settings or from the characters themselves. The crossdressing idea was really a good one, but it wasn't really exploited in the end, sadly. And again, it had to do with Tokujira : her fear of men and her probable homosexuality, the first is barely developed and the second one is almost non-existent.

I guess Itsuki finding somebody who looked past his appearance was a good resolution in itself, but I don't know... Still feels like it's missing a part of the story.

His first impression was that he thought she finally looked right into his eyes without being scared by him. Her being pretty wasn't important. You make it sound like simply because she is pretty it automatically make her worth falling for.

I think Tokujira being pretty helped Itsuki falling in love with her from the start. If she wasn't pretty, I guess he would've still been interested in her because she was the only one who wasn't afraid of him (even Botan was wary of him at first), perhaps he would have fallen for her later on after interacting with her. There is also the possibility she isn't pretty at all for others, but only pretty to him - subjectivity IS important in love.

So the way you approached it with accusing author of simply pandering to fans was pretty unfair.

I think she was essentially pandering to herself, fans reaction to Botan may have helped if she had any knowledge about them. What I accuse her of is to have had that idea mid-story and that she took a 180° turn to follow it. But yes, I can see after thinking about it how it's better for Itsuki in the end, I just didn't feel the love coming from him before chapter 29. But perhaps I was just too much focused on Tokujira's storyline to notice it.

---

The following part is mostly off-topic and a bit separated from the story. Unconcerned parties should feel free to ignore it. Or the whole message, for that matter.

I guess I'm just tired of stories for kids and want to read something more development. I totally understand that sometimes you want to read something fluffy, but sometimes you want something realistic (like real life) or sometimes straight dramatic/angsty. It all depends on the mood you are in. I'm not saying all the stories have to be write this way. I just want more stories to actually try harder.

I get what you're saying. I'll answer what I answer my friend (who have similar ideas about unoriginal stuff) : not everybody has read as many things as you and the audience is renewing each year. It's normal to only have a few truly original and daring story. I don't think MC going for Botan is what makes this one original, though.

So what? If she was ugly there would be no point trying to see her personality, but because she is pretty it is worth giving a shot?

No at the first part of your question, yes at the second. Love is unfair, pretty people attract more suitors, that doesn't mean pretty people aren't scum (but that doesn't mean they are either). Nor does it mean ugly people automatically have interesting personalities or the other way around

Physical appearance helps the most for the first impression, as a reason to make people want to know you or to get a message across. Of course you have to look past that at some point if you want to have something meaningful, but what could compel you to make a move onto somebody? You need a reason, as shallow as it can be, I think every reasons is good as it get : be it for their tastes, theirs quirks, a phrase they said, a certain behaviour (not being afraid of you) or being cute/pretty/handsome, or anything.

Don't you think it would be pretty ironic if his reason for initially going for her was because she is pretty?

Yes, but I've never said it's the only reason, just that it helps.

I don't believe in love at first sight. I think this love is worthless and never true.

There's nothing to believe, it's a fact. I might add scientific but I don't have any articles to link right now. However, since it happened to me, I'm pretty confident that it exists (at least one-sided ones are a given, both happening at the same time is just a matter of probability). Just to be clear, I'm not talking about a long lasting relationship that happens just because you fell for somebody really quickly. I'm only talking about a strong and powerful attraction towards an individual on first sight, which result in a genuine desire to know more about that person and, if possible, to be with them.

Of course, that doesn't mean that this could lead to a stable and fulfilling relationship, but the emotions are very true at this instant.

I had a similar argument with somebody else, the problem was our (different) ideas of the definition of love. I have the impression it is what is happening somehow right now. But otherwise, I pretty much agree with everything else you said in there.

Sure, here they don't stop at this, but that is why when you are saying "but she is pretty, that is reason enough to fall for her!" it lowers the quality of the story to that lvl for me.

It's just a reason like any other, as I said. Falling in love because she wasn't afraid of him could be seen as equally silly. It's possible that despite not being afraid of him, she would have been a complete pain in the ass to be with and in the end he would have stopped loving her and lost any interest in knowing her (or not, you can love bitches and assholes, it's not something you can really control). But Tokujira is still interesting and kind when you get behind her shells, that's what compelled Itsuki to continue his pursuit, right up until his change of heart.

Spoiler text

I know somebody who thought one of her lovers was ugly af at first ("moche comme un poux" is the original phrasing), but then he managed to seduce her and she found him really handsome and attractive. Beauty is subjective, I wasn't talking about different kind of beauty for nothing.

Of course, personality is the most important thing in the long run, but I was mostly talking about first impressions and attraction. Like, the first pages of the manga.

So I actually 100% feel your frustration and can sympathize with you. I didn't try to criticize you for wanting it to end differently. In fact I see your point.

Apologies then. I don't feel like I should touch another person story, but I can sympathise with the desire to write your own out of disappointment - if you want something done, do it yourself! I always imagined many of them but it takes time to do so.

Anyway, it was mainly to prove a point.

Aaand I wrote too fucking much again when I just wanted to make some sort of conclusion...

last edited at Dec 30, 2017 12:44PM

Finally got to the first chapter. Lol. Had to press prev so much times Dx

Finally got to the first chapter. Lol. Had to press prev so much times Dx

On behalf of Tokujira, I must say that I'm truly sorry that the author did you that way, and that the readers just pretty much just spit on you while you were down. I mean, I know it's a manga and all, but it's very disconcerting how people were treating her character. I'm sure you saw how troubled her childhood was and she was bad at making friends. And then, she finally found someone to help her with her problems, have fun with and fall in love with only to find out that they weren't who they said they were and didn't really exist. Then not long after, that person started dating her best friend. It's just all quite terrible. People like to attack Aoi, but they really need to look at Itsuki. He got away with a lot by the readers and author. I really don't like that. At least, she's still young and has time to meet better people who'll treat her well. Maybe it just hits a little close to home.

last edited at May 24, 2018 1:28PM

Well, this whole ordeal ended up being a waste time.

Well, this whole ordeal ended up being a waste time.

I disagree. I think it was a good series, which I certainly didn't expect from Het.

Well, this whole ordeal ended up being a waste time.

I disagree. I think it was a good series, which I certainly didn't expect from Het.

That's not what I was referring to.

That's not what I was referring to.

Well, elaborate, then.

That's not what I was referring to.

Well, elaborate, then.

I don't think I like the tone I'm sensing... Anyway, since you're curious, I'm more referring to how A dealt with Itsuki after learning about him cross-dressing. Or rather, her still wanting to date him, afterward, which is really just a personal problem I have with this particular story. If it had been the same premise with a different setting and characters, I may have enjoyed it more. Also, you can't really help the feelings you have, even if those feelings betrayed you. At least, she's over her fear of men.

last edited at Jul 4, 2018 6:01PM

That's not what I was referring to.

Well, elaborate, then.

I don't think I like the tone I'm sensing... Anyway, since you're curious, I'm more referring to how A dealt with Itsuki after learning about him cross-dressing. Or rather, her still wanting to date him, afterward, which is really just a personal problem I have with this particular story. If it had been the same premise with a different setting and characters, I may have enjoyed it more. Also, you can't really help the feelings you have, even if those feelings betrayed you. At least, she's over her fear of men.

Also, for more, check out my initial comment above the one you responded to.

If it had been the same premise with a different setting and characters, I may have enjoyed it more.

That'd be completely different story, tho'...

Also it's unfair to blame people for their reactions to Tokujira. As you're aware, the author's the one at fault for failing spetacularly in making her issues believable through her backstory. You say Itsuki got away with a lot, but his circunstances and the fact that he was at least reluctant about everything helped making him more sympathetic. He's a flawed character, but in this case the author pulled it off (possibly because we follow his pov).

And if those are your feelings regarding it... I'm still not sure what was a waste of time for you, then, if not the series...

That'd be completely different story, tho'...

Exactly, but maybe I'd enjoy it more.

And if those are your feelings regarding it... I'm still not sure what was a waste of time for you, then, if not the series...

But that is the series. It's the ending where everything was supposed to be resolved. I feel like it was rushed a bit. I wanted to see more of what was going on in Aoi's head, at the end. In my own opinion, the payoff wasn't great. Everyone has their different takes on the story, and that's just mine.

last edited at Jul 4, 2018 6:57PM