In that case I think what you mean is more realistic lesbian stories as opposed to often pretty unrealistic yuri fluff. I still find splitting LGBT stories and yuri stories in separate categories redundant. There is plenty yuri artist that write stories with more serious lesbian characters and plots, but still consider their work yuri.

I am reminded of the exacting, hair-splitting discussions I've seen about what qualifies as heavy metal, often accompanied by exacting, hair-splitting discussions about what qualifies as a particular subgenre of heavy metal.

For some folks, the difference between death metal and black metal is SERIOUS BUSINESS, yo.

To make an actual contribution to the topic, I'm new to all of this, so my opinion doesn't matter much. But to the extent that I have noticed, it seems like "yuri" exists in some sort of idealized fantasy land which looks an awful lot like the real world, but isn't. Where every lesbian couple has access to the school roof. Where teenagers can fuck in the school nurse's office and not get caught. (Or if they get caught, the nurse just shakes her head and lets them get on with it because, well, things like that just happen in an all-girls school, y'know? What can you do?)

It's also more about the romance. Budding feelings between two women. Actual love, not just lust.

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 5:04PM

I am reminded of the exacting, hair-splitting discussions I've seen about what qualifies as heavy metal, often accompanied by exacting, hair-splitting discussions about what qualifies as a particular subgenre of heavy metal.

For some folks, the difference between death metal and black metal is SERIOUS BUSINESS, yo.

I thought Heavy Metal was a subgenre of Metal in general while Black and Death come under Extreme metal ;)
There is a big distinction between the two though stylistically. But we are in the wrong thread for that argument.

I thought Heavy Metal was a subgenre of Metal in general while Black and Death come under Extreme metal ;)
There is a big distinction between the two though stylistically. But we are in the wrong thread for that argument.

SEE?!?

The Taxonomy urge is strong in the geek world.

In that case I think what you mean is more realistic lesbian stories as opposed to often pretty unrealistic yuri fluff. I still find splitting LGBT stories and yuri stories in separate categories redundant. There is plenty yuri artist that write stories with more serious lesbian characters and plots, but still consider their work yuri.

Yeah, that's why I said my personal definition. To be fair, I think it's kinda useless try to define something like this. It was a term who was born vaguely and somehow started to be used even in the official business, but everyone had a different view of what it is about. Just remember those studies about definition of yuri. Even in Japan there's differents interpretation. And I think it's fine that way.

Although, yeah, that does make it harder to tag it.

Vankomycin posted:

To make an actual contribution to the topic, I'm new to all of this, so my opinion doesn't matter much. But to the extent that I have noticed, it seems like "yuri" exists in some sort of idealized fantasy land which looks an awful lot like the real world, but isn't. Where every lesbian couple has access to the school roof. Where teenagers can fuck in the school nurse's office and not get caught. (Or if they get caught, the nurse just shakes her head and lets them get on with it because, well, things like that just happen in an all-girls school, y'know? What can you do?)

It is true those kind of yuri stories exist and people often criticize them for lack of realism, but there are more realistic works as well so that is the issue, you can't really say yuri is only those kind of works, which make this entire discussion redundant to me.

Wtv I was responding to Es0teric though ^ ^"

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 5:19PM

Yuri is whatever Nezchan says it is. That's a definition that works for me.

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 5:20PM

In that case I think what you mean is more realistic lesbian stories as opposed to often pretty unrealistic yuri fluff. I still find splitting LGBT stories and yuri stories in separate categories redundant. There is plenty yuri artist that write stories with more serious lesbian characters and plots, but still consider their work yuri.

Takamiya Jin is a good example of a lesbian author who puts pretty relatable stuff that connects to real-world lesbians into her stuff. Some of it's fluffy, some of it's not, but where's the line? I don't think there is one.

Look at Nishi Uko's stuff too, in the same light. Is Collectors an LGBT story or a yuri story? Like you said, it doesn't even make sense to say there's a difference.

As I said before, there's fluffy, very fictionalized comics and novels about gay girls, and they're considered lesbian stories for sure. But there's no functional difference between a novel like *Flowers of Luna" (see my review in the other media thread) and Hanjuku Joshi other than one is made in Japan and one is made by a Japanese-American.

In that case I think what you mean is more realistic lesbian stories as opposed to often pretty unrealistic yuri fluff. I still find splitting LGBT stories and yuri stories in separate categories redundant. There is plenty yuri artist that write stories with more serious lesbian characters and plots, but still consider their work yuri.

I think i was just talking preferences more than anything else. I am going to agree with you though.

Maybe we should be using Yuri as a more overarching term than a precise definition?

Also couldn't realistic relationships be fluffy too or have i musunderstood that term?

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 5:48PM

Can you really place a definition on a word, though? Considering that words are merely verbal shorthand to refer to concepts which people intuitively add meaning to based on their experiences, any definition on a word is subject to change based on the listeners experiences with the concept which is being referred to.

The easiest example is defining an apple. We can say it's a fruit, we can describe its taste, its colour, its shape,... but the only way someone can truly understand what an apple is, is by actually seeing, smelling, feeling, and tasting an apple.

Well, with the obvious exception that not everyone is able to see, smell, feel, and/or taste, so even that way of defining an apple is tricky.

To come back on topic, yuri, as a genre, is therefore defined based on one's own expectations of what a work in the yuri genre ought to contain, and subsequently different people have different concepts of what the yuri genre is.

Though it might be forward of me, I'd offer my suggestion that at the very least, the yuri genre concerns itself with people of the female persuasion and their interpersonal relations with each other.

@Es0teric
Personally, I think of the term "realistic relationship" as an opposite to an "idealised relationship". It is most often used when the relationship depicted deals with actual troubles that couples face/might face, as opposed to "I love you, you love me, and we will live happily ever after". x)

@Es0teric
Personally, I think of the term "realistic relationship" as an opposite to an "idealised relationship". It is most often used when the relationship depicted deals with actual troubles that couples face/might face, as opposed to "I love you, you love me, and we will live happily ever after". x)

I was more meaning the term Fluffy but i agree with you about the differences between an idealistic and realistic relationship.

Can you really place a definition on a word, though? Considering that words are merely verbal shorthand to refer to concepts which people intuitively add meaning to based on their experiences, any definition on a word is subject to change based on the listeners experiences with the concept which is being referred to.

The easiest example is defining an apple. We can say it's a fruit, we can describe its taste, its colour, its shape,... but the only way someone can truly understand what an apple is, is by actually seeing, smelling, feeling, and tasting an apple.

Well, with the obvious exception that not everyone is able to see, smell, feel, and/or taste, so even that way of defining an apple is tricky.

To come back on topic, yuri, as a genre, is therefore defined based on one's own expectations of what a work in the yuri genre ought to contain, and subsequently different people have different concepts of what the yuri genre is.

Though it might be forward of me, I'd offer my suggestion that at the very least, the yuri genre concerns itself with people of the female persuasion and their interpersonal relations with each other.

If you haven't read Semiotics for Beginners yet, you totally should. It'll be right up your alley based on what you've written here.

@Es0teric
Hmm, I suppose "fluffy" is generally used to mean that there's a lot of cuteness, and little to no drama?

Es0teric posted:

Also couldn't realistic relationships be fluffy too or have i musunderstood that term?

Of course it can. It was mental shortcut on my part. I meant the works people mostly refer to when they say yuri, which often totally ignores any real world issues like what our classmates will think, what about our parents and in general any problems that either lesbians or couples in general could face. Basically those kind of stories avoid those issues by not addressing them at all or just creating world where everyone accept it, hence it only focuses on fluff parts.

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 6:15PM

Stretch is yuri

/discuss

@Ratte
Stretch makes me sad.

Stretch is yuri

/discuss

+100 points for trolling~

You people really need to learn to deal with Stretch. You're the only ones responsible for your disappointment.

Es0teric posted:

Also couldn't realistic relationships be fluffy too or have i musunderstood that term?

Of course it can. It was mental shortcut on my part. I meant the works people mostly refer to when they say yuri, which often totally ignores any real world issues like how what our classmates will think, what about our parents and in general any problems that either lesbians or couples in general could face. Basically those kind of stories avoid those issues by not addressing them at all or just creating world where everyone accept it, hence it only focuses on fluff parts.

Thanks for the explanation : )

To make an actual contribution to the topic, I'm new to all of this, so my opinion doesn't matter much. But to the extent that I have noticed, it seems like "yuri" exists in some sort of idealized fantasy land which looks an awful lot like the real world, but isn't. Where every lesbian couple has access to the school roof. Where teenagers can fuck in the school nurse's office and not get caught. (Or if they get caught, the nurse just shakes her head and lets them get on with it because, well, things like that just happen in an all-girls school, y'know? What can you do?)

Eh, that's often hentai in general. Its just a trope that "hey, we can do the horizontal hokey-pokey at the nurse's office!" I suppose it could even evolve into its own tag if it ever became like "I want more Nurse's Office stories!"

I think the Yuri tag in association with tags such as Josei can help to define a manga/anime better than just a singular tag.

@none
I don't think it's strange that people expected more than friendship from an author that is mostly famous for doing hardcore pornographic lolicon manga, lmao.

(Edit: I'm also constantly on the lookout for super fluffy, non-angsty yuri.) ;D

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 6:29PM

There is a perfect definition of Yuri:

(Edit: I'm also constantly on the lookout for super fluffy, non-angsty yuri.) ;D

Ah, a fellow connoisseur of the "Happy Ending"? Its partly why I love reading Mira's stuff, even if/when it gets angsty, I can expect to not wanna bang my head repeatedly on my keyboard after finishing. Life is too fucking brutal and depressing as it is and "Depressing as Fuck" is something I take in extreme moderation.....