I know Tv Tropes is not always a good sourcce but they talk about all kinds of anti-hero, like Nineties Anti-Hero that are basically those anti-heroes like The Punisher that are super violent.

Punisher goes way back before the 90's, and in turn is basically a comics version the lead in Mack Bolan's Executioner novels. The 90's didn't invent that shit, they just made it lurid.

Chantelune posted:

And seriously, if we're down to using tvtropes as reference now, then the conversation reached a new low. That site has a tendency to twist the way they read the material to fit their little labels...

Hey! As a Troper I take offence in that! But seriously though, I know Tv Tropes need to be used with care.

Nevri posted:

My understanding of anti-hero is a protagonist that overall is working for good side, but their methods and/or attitude is often closer to that of the typically associated with villains.

For me too, for me protagonist is not synonymous of hero, protagonist =/= hero, they'e two separate things, if the evil ish characters are not working for the "good" side then they're not anti-heroes, they're just villains or neutral.

Nezchan posted:

I know Tv Tropes is not always a good sourcce but they talk about all kinds of anti-hero, like Nineties Anti-Hero that are basically those anti-heroes like The Punisher that are super violent.

Punisher goes way back before the 90's, and in turn is basically a comics version the lead in Mack Bolan's Executioner novels. The 90's didn't invent that shit, they just made it lurid.

Yeah I know that, the reason they call it like that, from what I remember, is because in the nineties they started to do a lot of comics with anti-heroes like The Punisher, but in practice that name is wrong.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 5:38PM

Well in case of Spider-man and Batman according to Tv Tropes they're Classical Anti-Hero because they're flawed people, Spider-man is even the trope picture in Classical Anti-Hero page

Light started as anti-hero but he ended up as villain protagonist.

And Faust, I'm pretty sure we're not talking about hero = protagonist, but anti-hero being a character that fights for the good, he's a hero that does questionable things or worse.

I know Tv Tropes is not always a good sourcce but they talk about all kinds of anti-hero, like Nineties Anti-Hero that are basically those anti-heroes like The Punisher that are super violent.

Thiaguinho-sama, an anti-hero is a villain protagonist.
Light became even more apparently crazy at the end, but ever since the start, his goals didn't change, but he took more and more drastic actions. His actions were a little doubtful at first, but when he started killing ANYONE that would get in his way, it became more obvious.
Ok no. Well I wasnt sure if you were usuing the term of hero in a different way, but okay you do
An anti-hero doesn't have to fight for the greater good, just a character that is flawed, doesn't have the usual heroic traits.

@Nevri

My understanding of anti-hero is a protagonist that overall is working for good side, but their methods and/or attitude is often closer to that of the typically associated with villains.

You can argue that Kuroko indeed does fit that definition, but that doesn't change the fact that killing innocent people and/or torturing them is in her nature and/or is just how she does things. So even if you define her as anti-hero, it doesn't change the fact she will keep on doing all those horrific things she was already doing before becoming "good".

Working for the good side isn't necessary, but the methods things is spot on, they do whatever they choose to do, whether it's morally right or not, to achieve whatever goals they may have
I'm not saying that she's doing those things BECAUSE she is an anti-hero, I'm just saying that seeing all she has already done, I'm ultimately not surprised.

As for Deadpool, isn't him more like Chaotic Neutral? He pretty much worked for most people in both sides.

And Faust, we're not going by the logic that protagonist = hero, so no, if the character is not working for the good guys then he can't be an anti-hero, if anything Kuroko is a Nominal Hero at best: "While these anti-heroes may fight on the side of good, their intentions/motivations are anything but."

Basically hero in name only, besides that she's basically a villain in their world, she is a serial killer with more than 715 deaths.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 5:47PM

Faust posted:

Working for the good side isn't necessary, but the methods things is spot on, they do whatever they choose to do, whether it's morally right or not, to achieve whatever goals they may have

Yea. I'm more used to anti-hero that still work for good side (like Lelouch or Constantine), but you are right, they don't have to work for good. They can have their own goals.

I'm not saying that she's doing those things BECAUSE she is an anti-hero, I'm just saying that seeing all she has already done, I'm ultimately not surprised.

I know. From what I understood that was Jade main argument. Kuroko is anti-hero, hence she cant penetrate some girl's vagina with umbrella, cos anti-heroes doesn't do it.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 5:48PM

As for Deadpool, isn't him more like Chaotic Neutral? He pretty much worked for most people in both sides.

And Faust, we're not going by the logic that protagonist = hero, so no, if the character is not working for the good guys then he can't be an anti-hero, if anything Kuroko is a Nominal Hero: "While these anti-heroes may fight on the side of good, their intentions/motivations are anything but." at best.

Basically hero in name only, besides that she's basically a villain in their world, she is a serial killer with more than 715 deaths.

Well in anti-hero, hero is protagonist. Kuroko is literally the "hero" of the story, that fucks shit up and kills people.
Regardless, an anti-hero does not need to work for the "good guys", that's what you keep getting wrong.
A villain protagonist is an anti-hero.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 5:51PM

I'm not saying that she's doing those things BECAUSE she is an anti-hero, I'm just saying that seeing all she has already done, I'm ultimately not surprised.

I know. From what I understood that was Jade main argument. Kuroko is anti-hero, hence she cant penetrate some girl's vagina with umbrella, cos anti-heroes doesn't do it.

I don't remember Jade's post, but yeaaahhh no anti-heroes can totally do that shit, especially Kuroko.
I know there's a whole discussion on whether it was an accident or not somewhere in here, but it's not like Kuroko really cares. Didn't she say that she didnt intend for it to in that deep? I just checked, it wasn't an accident lol, she just misjudged how deep, but that's kinda what she was aiming for anyway.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 5:55PM

Faust posted:

Well in anti-hero, hero is protagonist. Kuroko is literally the "hero" of the story, that fucks shit up and kills people.
Regardless, an anti-hero does not need to work for the "good guys", that's what you keep getting wrong.
A villain protagonist is an anti-hero.

But like I said, protagonist =/= hero, they don't always mean the same, she might be a hero in the narrative sense just because she's the protagonist, but her character in-story is not a hero in any way, so she can't be an anti-hero, so Kuroko is the protagonist of the story, that fucks shit up and kills people.

From a point of view in-story an anti-hero need to be working for the good guys to be even close to be called an anti-hero.

A villain protagonist is an anti-hero.

No, it's not, villain and hero are opposites, you already said it right there, villain protagonist, no one will say anti-hero protagonist because they are villain, they're the bad guys and people will expect them to be evil, not to be hero who do evil things.

Faust posted:

I know there's a whole discussion on whether it was an accident or not somewhere in here, but it's not like Kuroko really cares.

It is even worse. Jade argues that because it was pointless for the story and s/he felt disgusted by it, it shouldn't be in manga.

Faust posted:

Well in anti-hero, hero is protagonist. Kuroko is literally the "hero" of the story, that fucks shit up and kills people.
Regardless, an anti-hero does not need to work for the "good guys", that's what you keep getting wrong.
A villain protagonist is an anti-hero.

But like I said, protagonist =/= hero, they don't always mean the same, she might be a hero in the narrative sense just because she's the protagonist, but her character in-story is not a hero in any way, so she can't be an anti-hero, so Kuroko is the protagonist of the story, that fucks shit up and kills people.

From a point of view in-story an anti-hero need to be working for the good guys to be even close to be called an anti-hero.

A villain protagonist is an anti-hero.

No, it's not, villain and hero are opposites, you already said it right there, villain protagonist, no one will say anti-hero protagonist because they are villain, they're the bad guys and people will expect them to be evil, not to be hero who do evil things.

But you just said that she was a hero in the narrative sense. Hero and protagonist don't always mean the same you say, but that's exactly how it's used here
That's exactly what the hero in anti-hero mean
She isn't a hero in a heroic sense, just the narrative, literary definition, you know?
She is a protagonist that is a villain, hence, anti-hero.

I'm calling her a villain, in the non narrative sense, as in she does villainous things. A protagonist that does villainous things, is known as an anti-hero.

It's kinda hard to explain to you because you keep using the "narrative" sense whenever you want to apply it :/
Literally, take any "villain" in a story. If you wrote the story from THEIR perspective, it makes them the protagonist right, and so, the "hero" (in the narrative sense). There, anti-hero.

Nevri, you get what an anti-hero is, help me, I feel like I'm not being clear enough.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 6:13PM

and why the heck is Marvel full of anti-heroes anyway?

Cause they're awesome. Just throwing that in here. Also, Deadpool.
Alright then, keep on doing your arguing.

She is a protagonist that is a villain, hence, anti-hero.

I'm calling her a villain, in the non narrative sense, as in she does villainous things. A protagonist that does villainous things, is known as an anti-hero.

According to OED:

Definition of anti-hero in English:
noun (plural anti-heroes)
A central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes.

That's all.

She is a protagonist that is a villain, hence, anti-hero.

I'm calling her a villain, in the non narrative sense, as in she does villainous things. A protagonist that does villainous things, is known as an anti-hero.

According to OED:

Definition of anti-hero in English:
noun (plural anti-heroes)
A central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes.

That's all.

I've specified it a bit more to fit Kuroko's case, but yeah. (I'm sorry if it sounded like I was saying that to be an anti-hero, the character NEEDS to do villainous things)
In doing those things, she doesn't fit into what characterizes a conventional hero, so, anti-hero

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 6:30PM

Generally speaking, protagonist is who the story is about, or at least the eyes through which we see the story. A hero isn't necessarily a protagonist, and as colloquially there are different valid ways to define "hero" (layperson's definition, literary term of art and so forth), the dictionary becomes less useful. Villain is a little easier to pin down, it's someone who does bad things. They're usually the antagonist, but in the case of an anti-hero there's often a bigger villain taking that role, while the anti-hero takes on the job of taking them down.

I differentiate "hero" from "protagonist" because it's perfectly valid to tell a story about a villain simply being a villain and following them as they do awful things. They aren't a hero, although there could be an actual hero as the antagonist of the piece (see Dr. Horrible, as a bit of a flippant example). This is a case where I think "villain protagonist" fits, things like a character study of Jack the Ripper or something. They're not doing good by accident or to save their skin. They're doing evil in the world because that's what they do. But they're still the protagonist regardless of such concerns.

tl;dr: The way I see it, "hero" and "villain", and by extension "anti-hero" are terms describing qualities of characters or their actions, while "protagonist" and "antagonist" are terms referring to the structure of the story itself.

Thanks for your post Nezchan, it explains perfectly what I view as protagonist and hero as not being the same thing.

Anti-hero definition says that it's a character who lacks conventional heroic attributes, which imply that the character have some heroic attributes that are not conventional to be called anti-hero, but Kuroko doesn't have any heroic attribute at all, actually quite the opposite as we see that she's a cold ruthless serial killer who kills without any reason except for the fact that she can, she doesn't save people because she wants but because she need to stay free, the way she killed those three girls is basically an example of how she doesn't have any heroic attribute and she's just evil like it was already shown to us since the beginning, which is why I see Kuroko as a protagonist who is a villain working for the good guys, like Alucard.

last edited at Jan 5, 2016 7:20PM

what the f.... that was massive but damn yeah!

Aren't people generally hurt in the process of dying...damn

People die when they are killed

Aren't people generally hurt in the process of dying...damn

People die when they are killed

Lmao
I guess what Kuroko meant was that
She's no longer injured
She's fucking dead

Aren't people generally hurt in the process of dying...damn

People die when they are killed

The girls in gakkou gurashi tend to disagree. :p

Aww, Hinako sees Kuroko as a parental figure

damn even for Kuroko that went too far... that umbrella though.. ouch

Page 23......Hahahahahaha....OMG

Holy crap.. These last chapters are brutal! Though I still love it.

Chapter 39-41 was translated.
Spoilers : I don't understand what kind of love between these two. This bombing is actually a decoy plan ? Glassed girl is a master plan of all this. She wanted to revenge over her lover for harassing her with these three bully girls ( got kicked by Kuroko).

last edited at Jan 13, 2016 8:14PM

Not nice, ekw79. You should mark your spoilers for chapters not released on Dynasty yet =x