It won't be that easy. I'm pretty sure Fujiwara is going to send Yuma on a guilt trip.

That will keep her from meddling in his business with Hotaru.

Man, I'm almost hoping for that. Just to see someone, anyone, who can successfully get Yuma to think about something for more than thirty seconds. At this point, I'm half-expecting her Absolute Obliviousness Field to just completely overpower him. I mean, it'll still be somewhat exasperating, but I care so little for any of these characters, at this point, that I just want something to happen already.

~senpai~ o(≧▽≦)o

Well, while I understand the feeling of wanting to antagonize Takeda, if only because he is in the way, I think that is missing the point. Point being that Yuma's feelings lie with Hotaru, as shown by her apathetic attitude toward Takeda in that scene.

Think of it this way, if Hotaru and Yuma get together(They will), you wouldn't want Yuma to look at their relationship and think 'Oh, I'm only with Hotaru because Takeda was an asshole.'

Even if she herself is unaware, Yuma has already made her decision, her indifferent attitude which pushed Takeda away, her defensiveness of Hotaru and the fact that she still gravitates toward Hotaru despite her earlier guilt.

Kyaaaa, MelonBun senpai noticed meee o.o

I understand but... still burn the hetscum right? Right? :s

I understand but... still burn the hetscum right? Right? :s

But... if we burn him, then we won't get to see his face when he gets NTR'd by a girl, the tears will be delicious.

I understand but... still burn the hetscum right? Right? :s

But... if we burn him, then we won't get to see his face when he gets NTR'd by a girl, the tears will be delicious.

:o

Of course! Senpai so wise ;_;

I understand but... still burn the hetscum right? Right? :s

But... if we burn him, then we won't get to see his face when he gets NTR'd by a girl, the tears will be delicious.

:o

Of course! Senpai so wise ;_;

Y- You people are scaring the crap out of me

I understand but... still burn the hetscum right? Right? :s

But... if we burn him, then we won't get to see his face when he gets NTR'd by a girl, the tears will be delicious.

Reminds me of Re: Monster. Each time the MC sees an opponent, he wonders how it will taste.

last edited at Oct 1, 2015 12:21PM

Y- You people are scaring the crap out of me

Huh? ;~;

Reminds me of Re: Monster. Each time the MC sees an opponent, he wonders how it will taste.

Well, when you power up by eating stuff... You eat a lot of stuff and some might not be so savory.

Reminds me of Re: Monster. Each time the MC sees an opponent, he wonders how it will taste.

Well, when you power up by eating stuff... You eat a lot of stuff and some might not be so savory.

[You ate tears of NTR'd guy]

Ability [Couple Breaker] learned

Chapter 6... why? Why would you do this? "And we're both girls in the first place!" sigh

I mean, I was perfectly aware that Yuma was incredibly dense from the very beginning, what with Hotaru plunging her hand down between her legs within the first two pages of the manga, and then Yuma subsequently thinking "what was the meaning of all that...". I mean, I know that even straight girls can fool around with other girls, but it is usually in certain places and under certain circumstances (for example, one of my acquaintances has a habit of making out with her female friends, despite her, and said friends, being straight, but it is always in clubs, when things 'get wild'), and putting one's hand down someone's pants is not counted as just innocently messing around. That constitutes crossing some serious lines, and Hotaru does this several times (chapters 1 and 3 definitively, chapter 4 maybe, it is not entirely visible what she does with her hands), and yet, Yuma remains completely oblivious. Made all the worse because she actually tries to think as to why would Hotaru act the way she does.

And now, even after Hotaru openly declares that what they are doing is cheating, and pushes her hand down Yuma's pants one more time, she is still oblivious. True, she slapped Hotaru's hand away, but is still none the wiser as to what is actually going on. Not only that, but she actually comes across, at least to me, as if she does not even know that two girls could be a thing. I personally detest the phrase 'but we are both girls', as it implies that the person in question is ignorant of the fact that there are such things as same-sex relationships. True, as someone pointed out to me, the phrase could be meant as purely voicing one's insecurities, because of the social stigma involved. But the thing is, in this particular case, it really does leave me with an impression that Yuma genuinely has no idea that two girls could be involved romantically, or just purely sexually. 'Was it because all this stuff I've been doing with Hotaru really is "cheating"?' And. 'All those comments about how this is cheating... I definitively can't let Hotaru's remarks mess with my head. And we're both girls in the first place!' In other words, what this implies is that, basically, if Hotaru was a male, not only would her motives probably be clear from the start, but all of this would actually, yes, constitute cheating. I mean, it is one thing to question your own preferences ('I am not like that, am I?', for example), it is somewhat different to be completely oblivious to the fact that there is such a thing as same-sex relationships. There is dense, there is oblivious, and then there is the brain-impaired. Hotaru outright stating her fatigue with Yuma's obliviousness only leaves the latter confused even more. Her being unable to properly analyse her own feelings? Sure, I can go with that. Her being unable to properly analyse Hotaru's constant sexual advances? Well...

And as for Hotaru, I personally do not think that she is some sort of a master manipulator, as some have implied. She certainly is manipulative, and her actions towards Yuma are reproachable, but to me it reads more like an act brought on by desperation, seeing Yuma getting herself a boyfriend, and based more on the 'heat of the moment' kind of thing, rather than some sort of a well thought out multi-stage plan. And she seems able to pull it off mainly because Yuma is just so incredibly dense, rather than because of her own skills as a manipulator. The thing is, I find it difficult to pint-point the reasoning behind her actions. Her feelings are obvious. Why is she going about it the way she does is somewhat... murky? General consensus on this seems to be 'she is confessing indirectly because she is too much of a coward to simply outright say it'. But, that simply does not sound all that plausible. Imagine that you are in love with your best friend, your childhood companion, and said friend seems to have incompatible sexual orientation, and even if there is an inkling that this person might respond favourably to your advances, there is no guarantee, and you could end up losing your friend. So, you are afraid to voice your true feelings. But. You are brave enough to make out with them, undress them, grope them, and plunge your hands between their legs on multiple occasions. It just does not add up. And, as chapter 6 has shown, she really does want Yuma to finally put the pieces together, and is genuinely frustrated with her obliviousness, making it apparent that her intent really is an indirect confession. So, the obvious question, and one that particularly vexes me, is: why is she confessing in this manner in the first place? Beside frustrating herself (because her love interest is an idiot), this approach could potentially have serious drawbacks. The readers know that Yuma has romantic feelings for Hotaru (even if Yuma herself does not), but Hotaru, in-universe, has no way of knowing that, so, from her point of view, there should be several potential outcomes.
First, Yuma returns her feelings and they get together.
Second, Yuma returns her feelings, but is displeased with the way Hotaru went about confessing, so she rejects her (loving someone does not equal accepting everything they do).
Third, Yuma does not return her feelings, but decides to stay friends.
Fourth, Yuma does not return her feelings, and decides to cut ties.
Fifth, Yuma does not return her feelings, but decides to cut ties with Hotaru because of the way she 'confessed', rather than anything else.
Now, some of them depend purely upon Yuma returning or not returning Hotaru's feelings, but some of them have a negative outcome precisely because of the latter's actions, and pose a threat to not only Hotaru's chances with Yuma, but to their friendship as well.
Now, I know that Hotaru is just an adolescent, and I did say that she seems to act with the in-the-heat-of-the-moment kind of thinking. Still, these things happen over a course of, presumably, several weeks, thus, it is somewhat baffling that she, apparently, does not, at any point, even consider her approach as somewhat troublesome. If she did, she would have, at the very least, thought about just openly confessing.

Takeda is... well, he is nice, I suppose. To be honest, I do not particularly like him, or dislike him, so... indifferent is the apt description. He has a nice disposition, and the only really questionable thing he does is that episode where he ignores Yuma. Although, I must confess that I did not read it as him sulking because of the failure to bed Yuma, more like an adolescent way of dealing with general confusion. I mean, Yuma did send some seriously mixed signals during that entire trip episode, and was not exactly forthcoming with her reasons (understandable, since she herself is completely at a loss as to what is actually going on). Also, he seems rather dense, as well. I can see why him and Yuma would make an 'obvious' couple. Seeing two girls make out in the bustle of a dance podium in a club? Could mean anything. Seeing two girls make out in an apparently deserted corner of the schoolyard, in an obviously (from their isolated position) intimate atmosphere? "Playful friendliness" would not be my first interpretation.

Fujiwara is a bastard.

Now, as for the whole cheating thing... It falls flat for me. It simply does not have any real emotional, or any other, impact. If this was a story of two married couples, as it was originally intended, then cheating would pose a real in-universe problem, thus generating drama even without characters resorting to such precarious actions as Hotaru does. And the couples would not even have to be in love, just being married, and in such a setting (Japan), would be enough. Alternatively, if they were shown as adolescents, but at least harboring some romantic feelings for each other, would also make infidelity a real presence in the story. As it turns out, neither girl has an actual emotional attachment to their boyfriends, and Hotaru's relationship is downright abusive, by the looks of it. So, the only person who would actually be hurt is Takeda, and it is questionable to what extent, considering that his feelings could simply be I-like-her, rather than I-am-in-love-with-her (not that the latter is impossible). Hotaru breaking up with Fujiwara would actually be an all-around improvement even if she does not end up with Yuma afterwards. Because of all that, the cheating element simply does not have any real impact, either on the story itself, or me as a reader. The males are not even a true obstacle. Takeda being nice, and Yuma obviously not being truly interested in him, means that, when the time comes, she will, in all likelihood, simply break up with him, and that will be that. Fujiwara could pose a threat, but not because he is in a relationship with Hotaru, rather, simply because he is a malicious bastard, and, possibly, a sociopath. It could work just as well with him being Hotaru's brother, for example. Sure, Yuma getting herself a boyfriend was what prompted Hotaru to step up her advances (as it was stated that she did these kinds of things even before), but it would work just as well with, for example, one of them moving away at the end of the school term. Nothing too significant would be altered. All the more obvious with chapter 6, as the previous chapter could have very easily made for an end to Yuma's and Takeda's relationship. In fact, I thought that their relationship was dissolved, without them actually voicing it, and that the 'talk' would be in the interest of them staying on friendly terms. But no, Yuma actually seems glad that they are apparently still dating. Despite her not being all that emotionally invested in the relationship. The only reason the boyfriends are here seems to be so that this manga can be tagged as 'cheating'. And that Yuma can have her moments. "This is not cheating. Or is it? No, it is not! We are both girls!"

Overall, I rather enjoyed this series so far.

last edited at Nov 29, 2015 8:47PM

Everyone is like "Hotaru should just confess".

It would be a stupid move at the moment. As long as Yuma has not accepted her own attraction to Hotaru, any confession is gonna be rejected as "we are both girls/I have a boyfriend".

In that relationship, there's no need for a confession. Acts speak louder than words.

I don't know why none mentionned the most realistic scenario, that often happens in real life : Yuma cheats on her boyfriend AND STAYS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, while hiding her betrayal. It looks like she's taking that route. The feelings don't even have to be voiced or acknowledged.

That she'd be confronted about it, either because she's walked in on, or because Fujiwara breaks the news to Takeda is entirely another issue.

UranusAndNeptuneAreJustCousins

I agree with your essay 100% on chapter 6 of NTR. I just have to disagree with your name, Uranus and Neptune are lovers according to the Japanese version of sailor moon anime and not the shitty dubbed version. They are one of the best yuri couples in history. Unless your trolling with that name then I have been thoroughly trolled.

I just have to disagree with your name, Uranus and Neptune are lovers according to the Japanese version of sailor moon anime and not the shitty dubbed version.

I agree, the Cloverway dub was seriously lacking. I just wish they had kept to the high standards of the DiC.

Everyone is like "Hotaru should just confess".

If I may, I did not write that. What I wrote could more aptly be boiled down to "her current way of going about this is somewhat precarious, she should at least consider other options".

It would be a stupid move at the moment. As long as Yuma has not accepted her own attraction to Hotaru, any confession is gonna be rejected as "we are both girls/I have a boyfriend".

Considering that she is not actually in love with said boyfriend, and that their relationship is awkward at best, I do not see that part to be all that troublesome. And you are, if I read it correctly, assuming that Hotaru knows about Yuma's feelings, and is proceeding carefully, as to give the latter the time to accept her own attraction. The readers know about this, because they are privy to Yuma's inner musings, but Hotaru can only guess, and it would be somewhat reasonable for her to, at the very least, consider: 1) the possibility that Yuma might not return her feelings; 2) that, even if she did, she could still resent her for going about it the way she did. I did not write that Hotaru should base her actions on these possibilities, just that she should consider them. Could be a case of lazy writing on the author's part, though.

I don't know why none mentionned the most realistic scenario, that often happens in real life : Yuma cheats on her boyfriend AND STAYS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, while hiding her betrayal. It looks like she's taking that route. The feelings don't even have to be voiced or acknowledged.

This is not really a realistic manga, not with such characters.

And now, even after Hotaru openly declares that what they are doing is cheating, and pushes her hand down Yuma's pants one more time, she is still oblivious. True, she slapped Hotaru's hand away, but is still none the wiser as to what is actually going on. Not only that, but she actually comes across, at least to me, as if she does not even know that two girls could be a thing. I personally detest the phrase 'but we are both girls', as it implies that the person in question is ignorant of the fact that there are such things as same-sex relationships. True, as someone pointed out to me, the phrase could be meant as purely voicing one's insecurities, because of the social stigma involved. But the thing is, in this particular case, it really does leave me with an impression that Yuma genuinely has no idea that two girls could be involved romantically, or just purely sexually. 'Was it because all this stuff I've been doing with Hotaru really is "cheating"?' And. 'All those comments about how this is cheating... I definitively can't let Hotaru's remarks mess with my head. And we're both girls in the first place!' In other words, what this implies is that, basically, if Hotaru was a male, not only would her motives probably be clear from the start, but all of this would actually, yes, constitute cheating. I mean, it is one thing to question your own preferences ('I am not like that, am I?', for example), it is somewhat different to be completely oblivious to the fact that there is such a thing as same-sex relationships. There is dense, there is oblivious, and then there is the brain-impaired. Hotaru outright stating her fatigue with Yuma's obliviousness only leaves the latter confused even more. Her being unable to properly analyse her own feelings? Sure, I can go with that. Her being unable to properly analyse Hotaru's constant sexual advances? Well...

I've come across a significant number of people online who genuinely didn't know homosexuality existed and didn't realise they were gay for years because they didn't think it was even a possibility.

I've come across a significant number of people online who genuinely didn't know homosexuality existed and didn't realise they were gay for years because they didn't think it was even a possibility.

Point taken, but there is always the question of their age. If they originated in the bury-your-gays period, then yes, I can imagine them, even if they use the internet. I know people of older generations that can barely use the Word, let alone browse intensely through the net (or having the inclination to do so on a more regular basis). If they are adolescents in the second decade of the 21st century, and are, in all probability, bombarded with popular culture references, and those often do include either speculations, or outings, as to which celebrity could be, or is, gay or bi, then I find it to be somewhat improbable. Also, with many countries engaging in public debates, referendums, and legislative reforms concerning the question of gay rights, with even Japan having made some minor improvements (on a purely limited local level, if memory serves), I would find it even more unlikely that they would be, apparently, completely oblivious to the entire thing. That is just my opinion, though.

last edited at Oct 2, 2015 8:59AM

I've come across a significant number of people online who genuinely didn't know homosexuality existed and didn't realise they were gay for years because they didn't think it was even a possibility.

Point taken, but there is always the question of their age. If they originated in the bury-your-gays period, then yes, I can imagine them, even if they use the internet. I know people of older generations that can barely use the Word, let alone browse intensely through the net (or having the inclination to do so on a more regular basis). If they are adolescents in the second decade of the 21st century, and are, in all probability, bombarded with popular culture references, and those often do include either speculations, or outings, as to which celebrity could be, or is, gay or bi, than I find it to be somewhat improbable. Also, with many countries engaging in public debates, referendums, and legislative reforms concerning the question of gay rights, with even Japan having made some minor improvements (on a purely limited local level, if memory serves), I would find it even more unlikely that they would be, apparently, completely oblivious to the entire thing. That is just my opinion, though.

As far as I'm aware Japan is notoriously 'don't ask, don't tell', so children/adolescents may very well not see any examples of gay people with whom they may identify with enough to ever think they're gay. Plus, authors usually write from what they know and I presume the mangaka is at least ten years older than Yuma and Hotaru, so her personal experience of being gay (If she is. I'm always curious how many yuri authors are queer.) or awareness of homosexuality as a teenager would be at least ten years out of date.

Also, convenient drama, obvs.

I'm actually really interested in the state of the gay in Japan, but I've found it pretty difficult to find much about it online. I guess if I could read moon it would be easier.

Tiroskan

There was a talk somewhere in the Forum about a recent development, something along the lines of applying for a joint... something... possibly connected with real-estate... But it was a local thing, if I remember correctly.

Edit: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/tokyo-ward-becomes-first-japan-recognize-gay-partnerships310315/

last edited at Oct 2, 2015 9:20AM

Tiroskan

There was a talk somewhere in the Forum about a recent development, something along the lines of applying for a joint... something... possibly connected with real-estate... But it was a local thing, if I remember correctly.

Tokyo's Shibuya ward is first in Japan to recognise same-sex marriage
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/31/tokyos-shibuya-ward-same-sex-marriage
It's part of what reignited my curiosity.

ETA: Ahaha, jinx.

last edited at Oct 2, 2015 9:22AM

I am not entirely sure who was the ninja here...

If only there were a seconds counter as well.

The state of the gay in Japan is mostly "you can have your disgusting hobby all you want, just don't take it out of where it belongs : your home or dedicated places"

Same level as otakus, really.

Individuals may be more understanding, but don't expect them to go out of their way to support you. This would disturb the Wa.

Nya-chan
If your last-to-previous comment was a response to my post, I have posted a reply (not sure if you looked at the last page). If your comment was not a response, then ignore this. Apologies for the inconvenience.

last edited at Oct 3, 2015 1:39AM

@UranusAndNeptuneAreJustCousins
That was a really good analysis

This is why I really enjoy this manga, despite the "morally conflicting" themes, because it led us to deeply think about the characters, how we feel about their actions, etc
It challenges us and I think that's really fun and interesting c:

This is not really a realistic manga, not with such characters.

There is no such thing as "realistic" in fiction, humans are versatile creatures, just because people can relate a lot to certain characters actions and happening doesn't mean this would happen 100% in real life, Stretch gets away with a lot because the characters are likeable and smart and do things most people would find logically to do, I for one question for example why Keiko never thought, or Ran never suggested about visiting a psychiatrist, I didn't find this "realistic" at all, I just could come up with a lot of flawed excuses why they didn't

Remember, reality is unrealistic

last edited at Oct 3, 2015 4:55AM