100% in agreement here. I think I've said all I want to about this subject at this point, but I enjoyed your response. Some are really trying to reduce this to "you just don't get what this story was about " I can't agree and my responses have been about rejecting that exact idea. This would fail whether it was yuri or not and this sudden idea that the only focus of this story was Lara's independence rather than a combination of her independence and her growing arc with Mari is also interesting. Only one part of the story's major arcs was dealt with by this finale and the half left to dry was predictable. There's no universe where see say this story wasn't ever really about it's romantic build up even within it's themes of independence.

Yeah I think we're very much in agreement, and your ending line is incredibly well said and I think is the heart of things here,

"There's no universe where see say this story wasn't ever really about it's romantic build up even within it's themes of independence."

Yeah I feel like people strongly focusing on Lara's independence here are handing the creatives a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, by basically saying it's okay for the creators to not commit to the relationship and to only give us a maybe they'll be together in the future non committal ending. When as the title you mentioned, The Lovers, gives us BOTH a much stronger narrative of independence and sapphic love in a far shorter amount of time. Lara wanting her independence is good in theory but the creatives in this case ultimately use it as an excuse to not commit to any emotional or physical intimacy between Lara and Mari in the end, when they could have done both in meaningful ways like the spoiler tagged title did. As others have said even a hug would have been lovely, but I feel like the creatives were cowards.

I think that it is within their right not to commit to it if that's the kind of story they want to write, because it's their work, not ours, and they don't necessarily owe anything to the audience, but it's also the audience's right to complain about the aspects of it they didn't like and analyze them and the reasons behind, their tendencies. And yes, a lot of the time this is happening to fictional girls, I am not denying that at all because there is a very clear pattern of not taking them seriously, stripping girls of their sexuality or attraction as a whole so we can't deny the homophobia and misogyny present behind those choices. I understand where everyone who disliked it is coming from, it's a complex discussion for sure.

But at the same time, I also do enjoy something that's more nebulous, that's special to the characters themselves (like in Urasekai Picnic), that may have been born out of the settings' suffering on them or even the author's. Some are comparing this to the story choices in Utena, but I've never watched it (flashing lights...) so I can't say how accurate this comparison is, so I wonder if anyone has anything to say about that. Though now that we are getting works that are explicit lesbian romances, I don't really think the choice here is as bad as people treat it, because of the themes of being pressured into romance like life (literally) depends on it, and the fact that a girl was even considered as another to love, and is loved, is really good.

My reading of it may be considerably different from most people's, because I definitely do not feel that negative about it and have already rewatched each episode at least twice, so no I do not think the discussion over Lara's independence is sudden—or, at the very least, it isn't for me when I've been very interested from the start in the patriarchal and amatonormativity aspect of the story's themes. I just didn't want to participate in the discussion before because of how different my interpretation of the story is (Example: I didn't see the train scene as Lara being cold, but holding herself back instead not to change her mind) and many people seem to be considerably frustrated. I'm not trying to think of what would be the realistic choice for the character's to make, either, but thinking about what's presented and was previously presented that could have led to that outcome, and those things are there and they make sense to me, they just lacked the details that would make it as strong as it could have been (Though Luca's ambiguous line was very ??? I'd say, and the one thing in it that actually doesn't make sense to me if we interpret it as them actually dating and breaking up considering Lara's previous realization).

Which is why, as I said in my other post, I wish they had developed Mari's character more, explored her issues, explored her relation to christianity and romance itself, and there were little hints of it when she was clearly jealous of Lara advancing on her relationship with Luca, but that imo wasn't enough to really establish that connection between her and Lara.
Regardless of all that, it's still a romantic story about how a girl was saved by another girl's love and her own love for her, made that love explicit to the other, and now can finally be a person whose love belongs to her only as it should have from the start. It is called Sayonara Lara so there was going to be some sort of departure at some point, even if it temporary.

I watched it in JP while many watched it with subtitles that were clearly MTL, so I wonder how much of that affected the tone of the story for some. Apparently, the dub's translation is a lot better than the subtitles', but I can't confirm that because I can't understand english well.

But I liked Sayonara Lara a lot. I just wish people didn't disregard the whole story and all of the work's other qualities because of an ending they didn't like, I guess. Lara and Mari love the other and I don't think it erased any of that.

Yeah I feel like people strongly focusing on Lara's independence here are handing the creatives a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, by basically saying it's okay for the creators to not commit to the relationship and to only give us a maybe they'll be together in the future non committal ending. When as the title you mentioned, The Lovers, gives us BOTH a much stronger narrative of independence and sapphic love in a far shorter amount of time. Lara wanting her independence is good in theory but the creatives in this case ultimately use it as an excuse to not commit to any emotional or physical intimacy between Lara and Mari in the end, when they could have done both in meaningful ways like the spoiler tagged title did. As others have said even a hug would have been lovely, but I feel like the creatives were cowards.

I think that it is within their right not to commit to it if that's the kind of story they want to write, because it's their work, not ours, and they don't necessarily owe anything to the audience, but it's also the audience's right to complain about the aspects of it they didn't like and analyze them and the reasons behind, their tendencies. And yes, a lot of the time this is happening to fictional girls, I am not denying that at all because there is a very clear pattern of not taking them seriously, stripping girls of their sexuality or attraction as a whole so we can't deny the homophobia and misogyny present behind those choices. I understand where everyone who disliked it is coming from, it's a complex discussion for sure.

But at the same time, I also do enjoy something that's more nebulous, that's special to the characters themselves (like in Urasekai Picnic), that may have been born out of the settings' suffering on them or even the author's. Some are comparing this to the story choices in Utena, but I've never watched it (flashing lights...) so I can't say how accurate this comparison is, so I wonder if anyone has anything to say about that. Though now that we are getting works that are explicit lesbian romances, I don't really think the choice here is as bad as people treat it, because of the themes of being pressured into romance like life (literally) depends on it, and the fact that a girl was even considered as another to love, and is loved, is really good.

My reading of it may be considerably different from most people's, because I definitely do not feel that negative about it and have already rewatched each episode at least twice, so no I do not think the discussion over Lara's independence is sudden—or, at the very least, it isn't for me when I've been very interested from the start in the patriarchal and amatonormativity aspect of the story's themes. I just didn't want to participate in the discussion before because of how different my interpretation of the story is (Example: I didn't see the train scene as Lara being cold, but holding herself back instead not to change her mind) and many people seem to be considerably frustrated. I'm not trying to think of what would be the realistic choice for the character's to make, either, but thinking about what's presented and was previously presented that could have led to that outcome, and those things are there and they make sense to me, they just lacked the details that would make it as strong as it could have been (Though Luca's ambiguous line was very ??? I'd say, and the one thing in it that actually doesn't make sense to me if we interpret it as them actually dating and breaking up considering Lara's previous realization).

Which is why, as I said in my other post, I wish they had developed Mari's character more, explored her issues, explored her relation to christianity and romance itself, and there were little hints of it when she was clearly jealous of Lara advancing on her relationship with Luca, but that imo wasn't enough to really establish that connection between her and Lara.
Regardless of all that, it's still a romantic story about how a girl was saved by another girl's love and her own love for her, made that love explicit to the other, and now can finally be a person whose love belongs to her only as it should have from the start. It is called Sayonara Lara so there was going to be some sort of departure at some point, even if it temporary.

I watched it in JP while many watched it with subtitles that were clearly MTL, so I wonder how much of that affected the tone of the story for some. Apparently, the dub's translation is a lot better than the subtitles', but I can't confirm that because I can't understand english well.

But I liked Sayonara Lara a lot. I just wish people didn't disregard the whole story and all of the work's other qualities because of an ending they didn't like, I guess. Lara and Mari love the other and I don't think it erased any of that.

I think we just have two very different perspectives of the series. I'm glad that the series is incredible for you and that the ending didn't damage it. For me however the ending was awful for the reasons I stated, and as I said in the entirety of my full comment I think there are examples of doing independence and love better. To me this series half-assed both of those things, and in a way that genuinely sucks with queer love and the entire history of it, along with how others have said this doesn't exist in a vacuum. I don't think I have anymore to add really, I don't want to change your mind, and I'm firm in my own views. So ultimately we probably have to agree to disagree and that's fine, again while I hated the ending I'm happy you loved the series so much.

I think we just have two very different perspectives of the series. I'm glad that the series is incredible for you and that the ending didn't damage it. For me however the ending was awful for the reasons I stated, and as I said in the entirety of my full comment I think there are examples of doing independence and love better. To me this series half-assed both of those things, and in a way that genuinely sucks with queer love and the entire history of it, along with how others have said this doesn't exist in a vacuum. I don't think I have anymore to add really, I don't want to change your mind, and I'm firm in my own views. So ultimately we probably have to agree to disagree and that's fine, again while I hated the ending I'm happy you loved the series so much.

I'm not trying to change yours either (I only quoted that bit because I tend to write relatively long posts but I was trying to reply to it as a whole. I can't tell if you're being ironic about me liking it, but I hope I wasn't rude or hurtful in my reply? It's not my intention) or trying to impose my thoughts on anyone else. I understand there are people who don't deal well with this for reasons that may be fair (though I do not agree with the existence of yuribait, and how people in other spaces want them to kiss for it to be real), I just wanted to add my own thoughts into the discussion too since it was mostly people who didn't like it talking, and some even portraying points of the story in inaccurate ways.

I think we just have two very different perspectives of the series. I'm glad that the series is incredible for you and that the ending didn't damage it. For me however the ending was awful for the reasons I stated, and as I said in the entirety of my full comment I think there are examples of doing independence and love better. To me this series half-assed both of those things, and in a way that genuinely sucks with queer love and the entire history of it, along with how others have said this doesn't exist in a vacuum. I don't think I have anymore to add really, I don't want to change your mind, and I'm firm in my own views. So ultimately we probably have to agree to disagree and that's fine, again while I hated the ending I'm happy you loved the series so much.

I'm not trying to change yours either (I only quoted that bit because I tend to write relatively long posts but I was trying to reply to it as a whole. I can't tell if you're being ironic about me liking it, but I hope I wasn't rude or hurtful in my reply? It's not my intention) or trying to impose my thoughts on anyone else. I understand there are people who don't deal well with this for reasons that may be fair (though I do not agree with the existence of yuribait, and how people in other spaces want them to kiss for it to be real), I just wanted to add my own thoughts into the discussion too since it was mostly people who didn't like it talking, and some even portraying points of the story in inaccurate ways.

That's fair, and no I'm not being ironic apologies if it came off that way. Rather I'm being sincere when I say even if I have strong views on disliking the ending I am also genuinely happy for people that enjoyed it more.

They handed out the trans reading for free

+

The trans allegory was completely accidental, I don't believe the creators are aware or capable enough for that.

Frankly, I don't care for the intent of the creator in these things. Matters of the body and bodily autonomy are always going to relate back to a trans experience whether intentional or not. It's my truth and my reading.

At the same time, and I know I cannot speak to the creators intentions, are we really going to say this about the same series that has characters like Kota and Luca's younger sibling?

last edited at Sep 22, 2026 4:54PM

I think the question is "Do we really WANT to claim this trashfire as trans rep?"
There are other things we can claim instead! Ansatsu Kyoshitsu! Zombieland Saga! Pandora in the Crimson Shell!
Y'know, things that don't suck.

I'm mixed on the ending, there are aspects that I like and aspects that I don't. Overall I thought the show was excellent and I'd still give it a 9/10 if pressed but it could have been a 10/10 if it stuck the landing. All the topics on yuri and Lara aside (Everyone else has covered them in much better detail that I could ever hope to) Mari was done dirty.

Consistently shown to be a very lonely person after the death of her mother, she got basically nothing in the finale. A promise of reunion as Lara heads off to who-knows-where for however-long. If that was their plan for the ending from the get go then I really would have liked even just a few scenes of Mari interacting with classmates, working at the bakery, training with her boxing collegues. Something at the very least to show that she's opening up to people and recovering from the trauma of losing her mother but instead all she gets is a look of pining as the one person she opened up to abandons her on the platform.

The entire show said light=love and it was lara trying to find the light
Mari was lara's light = Mari was lara's love, whether it was romantically, platonically, or familially

we didn't see that at the end, we saw lara abandon her light, her love, to find it somewhere else

Exactly! What pissed me off with this ending was that they swerved to an extreme independence message that didn't fit the build up in all the other episodes at all. It just came off as heartless and from a completely different story.

Beyond the cowardice of having the girl be confirmed as the true love and not committing to making them a couple while making an entire episode focused on her going on dates with the comphet plot device dude, if they wanted to subvert the idea that the love as a source of light didn't need to be romantic, have it as the light came from the people she met, the warmth she received at work, from her friends like Himeka and have Mari being the representation of the love she received from humans.

It could have been a story about her learning appreciation for humans while not making her seem like a completely heartless individual isolating herself from everyone that helped her, specially in realizing that the "true love" her family was forcing onto her (romantic, with a prince) wasn't the only way to become whole, now that they have no use.

A lot of people are mad about Mari being left with nothing, and I think the situation of this character represents it because she was the major supporting force through Lara's journey and was left alone and crying. But I'm still thinking about all that time developing a bunch of characters teaching her about life and giving her warmth and how much better it would be if they showed her learning to be human with her web of support, her found family.

The extreme independence for a character that is physically 15-16, with no education, no source of money like inheritance, only one job experience is so unrealistic it pissed me off. It seems more like a character arc fit for someone graduating High School or a character who has lived enough in human society. Lara hasn't.

She'll go find a new light all alone? Then what was the point of all the Slice of Life? What was the point of Mari sacrificing herself as her best friend? What was the point of "I want to be in a world with you"? People can grow together without being codependent, there is no need for isolation to make it a point that Lara was going to look for something of her own, that is beyond her duty as the princess who needs to bring the light.

The ending was just weird, and that's beyond shipping. Lara came off as a bad friend to everyone around her, not even just Mari. But specially to Mari, who DIED for her. And was left with just loss. Now Lara will go out, find new friends, discover new things, cutting off Mari. Lara could explore the world with Mari, her being a romantic partner or merely a friend.

Nothing was solved at the end, a lot of characters were introduced and they were just plot devices to tell a story that has no real message. Beyond the queer erasure, I felt like I wasted my time just like all of those characters that were used for Lara to get an ending that is good for her and no one else. I lowkey want all the weeks I spent watching this BS wanting a heartwarming message back.

---

Edit: Dear GOD there were so many typos it felt like I was having a stoke. I'm just THIS MAD ig...

last edited at Sep 22, 2026 9:02PM

Lukewarm Lara take: while I can get what they were going for with the ending and am glad for the people that genuinely did like it, it really didn't land for me. While I wished they got together and actually started dating, I'm not opposed to an ending where Lara and Mari go their separate ways. I just think it could have been handled better (more buildup, have Mari be accepting instead of confused and in tears, have them actually promise to meet again, etc). It didn't bring down the entire show for me but I probably won't be rewatching it.

Also, learning that the writer for Lara also wrote the live-action adaptation for Young Ladies Don't Play Fighting Games (which had a brand-new ending where the main characters split up and never meet again for some reason) doesn't really help my feelings with Lara.

Also, learning that the writer for Lara also wrote the live-action adaptation for Young Ladies Don't Play Fighting Games (which had a brand-new ending where the main characters split up and never meet again for some reason) doesn't really help my feelings with Lara.

That would be funny if it wasn't a bit annoying. Is that actually how it ends in the live action? Also, makes me wonder more if the intended ending is that they don't actually meet again here as well. That's what I felt the ending was implying anyway although it made sure it whispered everything at the end so it could be as "up to interpretation" as possible.

last edited at Sep 22, 2026 8:05PM

I'm going to have a weird take about the entire show, and that is Lara being a mermaid didn't actually matter that much to the story at least outside of providing her father a reason to hate humans (even that is kind of thin since its essentially racism just using mermaids instead of a rl race). Now i say this due to a few reasons, the first half of the show Lara being a mermaid doesn't really effect the story that much, especially considering the first interaction we see in the prologue is her being rejected for being one. Now in the modern time not sure a character that was human that knew she was a mermaid ever really cared that much about it.

This would be fine to show that humanity has changed, but for some reason every flashback we get has humans treating mermaids like trash, which at this point in the story makes sense. The reason i bring this up is at the start of the story it sets up a theme about humanity and Mermaids can come together despite the shared past and that Lara some way will be the one to bridge the gap.

This was shown initially via true love and had a clear goal, being that Lara one way or another would find mutual ground between the mermaids and humanity. In the second half of the show when we learn how the dagger works and Lara's father is basically racist to humanity as a whole due to his wife being killed, the story Segway's onto Lara trying to not get her true love killed and has her independence/freedom become the main theme. Then we have Lara reject the idea of true love that the mermaids have and decides to live in the human world and go explore it.

Not terrible in of itself until you realise in the epilogue Lara is a human and the mermaids as a whole are kind of forgotten (we know they will wake up but since Lara seems to be a full on human now its not really her problem) So that idea of humans and mermaids being to able to coexist was nowhere to be seen as Lara said screw all the mermaids im going to be human now.

My problem is the fact that in ending the mermaids as a whole don't matter, in fact I'm going to further and say pretty much, the only character that matters is Lara.

Her being a mermaid was pretty much just a plot device reason for her to have "Magic" in the form of a dagger and as a timer that forced the story to progress. this extends to not just mermaids in the story but pretty much every character only serves to further the plot/growth for Lara which would all be fine if it was marketed as a coming of age story for Lara instead of a romance story.

Generally i feel it wanted to be a coming of age story based on the little mermaid, but needed to market itself as romance to get viewership, as the romance for Mari is only implied in nature and the Luca romance only exists for Lara to get over the prince with not much else to offer.

sorry for the long post that probably doesn't even make sense.

wlftchtr82 I think you make an interesting point of how Lara could have found light in the love she received from all the humans that showed her love during her 2nd life. I feel like that could have been something to explore.

I'm going to have a weird take about the entire show, and that is Lara being a mermaid didn't actually matter that much to the story at least outside of providing her father a reason to hate humans (even that is kind of thin since its essentially racism just using mermaids instead of a rl race). Now i say this due to a few reasons, the first half of the show Lara being a mermaid doesn't really effect the story that much, especially considering the first interaction we see in the prologue is her being rejected for being one. Now in the modern time not sure a character that was human that knew she was a mermaid ever really cared that much about it.

This would be fine to show that humanity has changed, but for some reason every flashback we get has humans treating mermaids like trash, which at this point in the story makes sense. The reason i bring this up is at the start of the story it sets up a theme about humanity and Mermaids can come together despite the shared past and that Lara some way will be the one to bridge the gap.

This was shown initially via true love and had a clear goal, being that Lara one way or another would find mutual ground between the mermaids and humanity. In the second half of the show when we learn how the dagger works and Lara's father is basically racist to humanity as a whole due to his wife being killed, the story Segway's onto Lara trying to not get her true love killed and has her independence/freedom become the main theme. Then we have Lara reject the idea of true love that the mermaids have and decides to live in the human world and go explore it.

Not terrible in of itself until you realise in the epilogue Lara is a human and the mermaids as a whole are kind of forgotten (we know they will wake up but since Lara seems to be a full on human now its not really her problem) So that idea of humans and mermaids being to able to coexist was nowhere to be seen as Lara said screw all the mermaids im going to be human now.

My problem is the fact that in ending the mermaids as a whole don't matter, in fact I'm going to further and say pretty much, the only character that matters is Lara.

Her being a mermaid was pretty much just a plot device reason for her to have "Magic" in the form of a dagger and as a timer that forced the story to progress. this extends to not just mermaids in the story but pretty much every character only serves to further the plot/growth for Lara which would all be fine if it was marketed as a coming of age story for Lara instead of a romance story.

Generally i feel it wanted to be a coming of age story based on the little mermaid, but needed to market itself as romance to get viewership, as the romance for Mari is only implied in nature and the Luca romance only exists for Lara to get over the prince with not much else to offer.

sorry for the long post that probably doesn't even make sense.

Don't discount yourself, I think you're making sense. As a Mermaid story I'd say it's pretty underwhelming personally, and I wanted more mermaid Lara. I thought the whole thing with her dad turning Lara back into a mermaid, with the dad thinking a human wouldn't love her in that form, would have been resolved by Mari telling Lara that her mermaid form is beautiful. Which would overwrite Lara's previous tragic love ending with the prince being horrified and disgusted by Lara's mermaid form. In theory Mari loving Lara's mermaid form could have led to Lara loving herself more, and also forming that bridge of mermaid and human relations. Maybe they could have even had this conclude with Lara's magic and this love culminating in Lara being able to transform between mermaid and human at will.

IMO more mermaid focus in a mermaid story would have been nice. Also heck with the dad saying humans used to originally be mermaids...it could have been fun to see Lara's magic granting Mari the ability to transform between mermaid and human herself. I don't know, just a thought of the fun things that this series could have explored lol

What I disagree is not the dislike for the ending but the idea that this anime didn’t commit, distancing itself from yuri at last minute. But Sayonara Lara fits what yuri is about, yeah the genre has branched, but that doesn’t change a big core of it, ambiguity, and that has always been a big reason why people like yuri, Time Kirara being the best aexample. I know people feel conflicted about the term “yuribait” but it’s real, series for shipping are created with that in mind, to give the idea of but never confirm anything, it sells (contrary to what a lot believe, I get the whole angle of “yuri doesn’t sell it’s unpopular” etc. but this is easily proven wrong by stuff like Dragon Maid, Madoka, Uma Musume, etc.) and a lot of yuri fans are not fans of commercial yuri but of secondary works.

But I also don’t like people being super sarcastic when someone ask for confirmation, some want it not because they can’t see (I really hate that everytime the response is “what more you need? do you want them to fuck or look at you and say We Are a Couple?”) but because they ask themselves why they can yearn, say they can’t live without each other but never say We are a Couple. I think is a valid question, one reason that everyone says is homophobia but another reason that most people don’t want to admit is that yuri fans like that more than-less than and that is why a lot of yuri is like that.
I don’t think Sayonara Lala is that different to other series of the same vein, I don’t think it didn’t commit, I just think is what a portion of yuri fans don’t want to see nowadays.

What I disagree is not the dislike for the ending but the idea that this anime didn’t commit, distancing itself from yuri at last minute. But Sayonara Lara fits what yuri is about, yeah the genre has branched, but that doesn’t change a big core of it, ambiguity, and that has always been a big reason why people like yuri, Time Kirara being the best aexample. I know people feel conflicted about the term “yuribait” but it’s real, series for shipping are created with that in mind, to give the idea of but never confirm anything, it sells (contrary to what a lot believe, I get the whole angle of “yuri doesn’t sell it’s unpopular” etc. but this is easily proven wrong by stuff like Dragon Maid, Madoka, Uma Musume, etc.) and a lot of yuri fans are not fans of commercial yuri but of secondary works.

But I also don’t like people being super sarcastic when someone ask for confirmation, some want it not because they can’t see (I really hate that everytime the response is “what more you need? do you want them to fuck or look at you and say We Are a Couple?”) but because they ask themselves why they can yearn, say they can’t live without each other but never say We are a Couple. I think is a valid question, one reason that everyone says is homophobia but another reason that most people don’t want to admit is that yuri fans like that more than-less than and that is why a lot of yuri is like that.
I don’t think Sayonara Lala is that different to other series of the same vein, I don’t think it didn’t commit, I just think is what a portion of yuri fans don’t want to see nowadays.

Ambiguity is not what Yuri is about, but rather it’s a consequence of oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. The only thing this story commits to is the cowardice.

I'm going to have a weird take about the entire show, and that is Lara being a mermaid didn't actually matter that much to the story at least outside of providing her father a reason to hate humans

I'll agree with this take. I was really hoping to have Mari confront Lara's dad in the finale (maybe even punch him, just to tie her whole boxing thing in) but in the end he (and all the rest of the mermaids besides Lisa) never even got to meet a single human; it kinda makes the whole xenophobia/racism angle fall flat for me.

What I disagree is not the dislike for the ending but the idea that this anime didn’t commit, distancing itself from yuri at last minute. But Sayonara Lara fits what yuri is about, yeah the genre has branched, but that doesn’t change a big core of it, ambiguity, and that has always been a big reason why people like yuri, Time Kirara being the best aexample. I know people feel conflicted about the term “yuribait” but it’s real, series for shipping are created with that in mind, to give the idea of but never confirm anything, it sells (contrary to what a lot believe, I get the whole angle of “yuri doesn’t sell it’s unpopular” etc. but this is easily proven wrong by stuff like Dragon Maid, Madoka, Uma Musume, etc.) and a lot of yuri fans are not fans of commercial yuri but of secondary works.

But I also don’t like people being super sarcastic when someone ask for confirmation, some want it not because they can’t see (I really hate that everytime the response is “what more you need? do you want them to fuck or look at you and say We Are a Couple?”) but because they ask themselves why they can yearn, say they can’t live without each other but never say We are a Couple. I think is a valid question, one reason that everyone says is homophobia but another reason that most people don’t want to admit is that yuri fans like that more than-less than and that is why a lot of yuri is like that.
I don’t think Sayonara Lala is that different to other series of the same vein, I don’t think it didn’t commit, I just think is what a portion of yuri fans don’t want to see nowadays.

Ambiguity is not what Yuri is about, but rather it’s a consequence of oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. The only thing this story commits to is the cowardice.

I disagree, I said it’s a big core of the genre not what every yuri in existence is about, even the novel Hanamonogatari is like that for example, and so was when yuri become a otaku genre, MariMite shaped a lot of modern yuri, Strawberry Panic, etc.
The idea that only censorship or oppresion shaped the ambiguity doesn’t make sense, not in the past (a pornographic Mom-Daughter movie was such a hit that gifted a lot of lesbian novels in japan) and not nowadays, if it was only censorship or oppression, original doujin works would be different from commercial yuri, but they have almost the exact same formula. Not saying other factors don’t influence this, but that people are denying a big part of yuri works with this when they deny ambiguity as a big part of yuri. There is a reason why Time Kirara is so popular. I may be wrong but if I remember correctly it sells better than YuriHime.
I am not saying all Yuri is like this or that this is what defines Yuri, but that ambiguity is present in the genre even nowadays precisely because (some)yuri fans like it
I don’t want to discuss this topic, because I know all the regular response to it, we don’t agree and that’s ok. You are free to see it as cowardice, I am not talking about Sayonara Lala but how the very definition of yuri is intimate relationships between girls, this can be everything (more than) and nothing (less than). It can be friendship, platonic, romantic, sexual, etc.
I know some people don’t like the term Girls Love for example, but some japanese fans like it and use it exactly because it has Love in the name, so ambiguity can not exist

last edited at Sep 22, 2026 10:03PM

What I disagree is not the dislike for the ending but the idea that this anime didn’t commit, distancing itself from yuri at last minute. But Sayonara Lara fits what yuri is about, yeah the genre has branched, but that doesn’t change a big core of it, ambiguity, and that has always been a big reason why people like yuri, Time Kirara being the best aexample. I know people feel conflicted about the term “yuribait” but it’s real, series for shipping are created with that in mind, to give the idea of but never confirm anything, it sells (contrary to what a lot believe, I get the whole angle of “yuri doesn’t sell it’s unpopular” etc. but this is easily proven wrong by stuff like Dragon Maid, Madoka, Uma Musume, etc.) and a lot of yuri fans are not fans of commercial yuri but of secondary works.

But I also don’t like people being super sarcastic when someone ask for confirmation, some want it not because they can’t see (I really hate that everytime the response is “what more you need? do you want them to fuck or look at you and say We Are a Couple?”) but because they ask themselves why they can yearn, say they can’t live without each other but never say We are a Couple. I think is a valid question, one reason that everyone says is homophobia but another reason that most people don’t want to admit is that yuri fans like that more than-less than and that is why a lot of yuri is like that.
I don’t think Sayonara Lala is that different to other series of the same vein, I don’t think it didn’t commit, I just think is what a portion of yuri fans don’t want to see nowadays.

Ambiguity is not what Yuri is about, but rather it’s a consequence of oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. The only thing this story commits to is the cowardice.

I disagree, I said it’s a big core of the genre not what every yuri in existence is about, even the novel Hanamonogatari is like that for example, and so was when yuri become a otaku genre, MariMite shaped a lot of modern yuri, Strawberry Panic, etc.
The idea that only censorship or oppresion shaped the ambiguity doesn’t make sense, not in the past (a pornographic Mom-Daughter movie was such a hit that gifted a lot of lesbian novels in japan) and not nowadays, if it was only censorship or oppression, original doujin works would be different from commercial yuri, but they have almost the exact same formula. Not saying other factors don’t influence this, but that people are denying a big part of yuri works with this when they deny ambiguity as a big part of yuri. There is a reason why Time Kirara is so popular. I may be wrong but if I remember correctly it sells better than YuriHime.
I am not saying all Yuri is like this or that this is what defines Yuri, but that ambiguity is present in the genre even nowadays precisely because (some)yuri fans like it
I don’t want to discuss this topic, because I know all the regular response to it, we don’t agree and that’s ok. You are free to see it as cowardice, I am not talking about Sayonara Lala but how the very definition of yuri is intimate relationships between girls, this can be everything (more than) and nothing (*less than). It can be friendship, platonic, romantic, sexual, etc.

Ambiguity has been part of lesbian (and gay) stories because of what has been allowed to be told in stories due to oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. I'm not denying that it's part of the history of queer relationships around the world, more so rejecting the idea that it's a "core" part of it, I rather acknowledge the history and evolve from it. As we move past ambiguity in our strive for better representation. Yuri to me is Sapphic relationships and the many forms it comes in, it's more than merely friendship like you describe so yes we'll have to agree to disagree. I've also seen the regular responses to this whole thing from your side as well, so it what it is. Also yes I do see it as cowardice when Lara swerves away from intimacy to ultimately release a safer narrative that attempts to appeal to a wider audience, including the ones that might be scared of a few L words like Love and Lesbian lol

What I disagree is not the dislike for the ending but the idea that this anime didn’t commit, distancing itself from yuri at last minute. But Sayonara Lara fits what yuri is about, yeah the genre has branched, but that doesn’t change a big core of it, ambiguity, and that has always been a big reason why people like yuri, Time Kirara being the best aexample. I know people feel conflicted about the term “yuribait” but it’s real, series for shipping are created with that in mind, to give the idea of but never confirm anything, it sells (contrary to what a lot believe, I get the whole angle of “yuri doesn’t sell it’s unpopular” etc. but this is easily proven wrong by stuff like Dragon Maid, Madoka, Uma Musume, etc.) and a lot of yuri fans are not fans of commercial yuri but of secondary works.

But I also don’t like people being super sarcastic when someone ask for confirmation, some want it not because they can’t see (I really hate that everytime the response is “what more you need? do you want them to fuck or look at you and say We Are a Couple?”) but because they ask themselves why they can yearn, say they can’t live without each other but never say We are a Couple. I think is a valid question, one reason that everyone says is homophobia but another reason that most people don’t want to admit is that yuri fans like that more than-less than and that is why a lot of yuri is like that.
I don’t think Sayonara Lala is that different to other series of the same vein, I don’t think it didn’t commit, I just think is what a portion of yuri fans don’t want to see nowadays.

Ambiguity is not what Yuri is about, but rather it’s a consequence of oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. The only thing this story commits to is the cowardice.

I disagree, I said it’s a big core of the genre not what every yuri in existence is about, even the novel Hanamonogatari is like that for example, and so was when yuri become a otaku genre, MariMite shaped a lot of modern yuri, Strawberry Panic, etc.
The idea that only censorship or oppresion shaped the ambiguity doesn’t make sense, not in the past (a pornographic Mom-Daughter movie was such a hit that gifted a lot of lesbian novels in japan) and not nowadays, if it was only censorship or oppression, original doujin works would be different from commercial yuri, but they have almost the exact same formula. Not saying other factors don’t influence this, but that people are denying a big part of yuri works with this when they deny ambiguity as a big part of yuri. There is a reason why Time Kirara is so popular. I may be wrong but if I remember correctly it sells better than YuriHime.
I am not saying all Yuri is like this or that this is what defines Yuri, but that ambiguity is present in the genre even nowadays precisely because (some)yuri fans like it
I don’t want to discuss this topic, because I know all the regular response to it, we don’t agree and that’s ok. You are free to see it as cowardice, I am not talking about Sayonara Lala but how the very definition of yuri is intimate relationships between girls, this can be everything (more than) and nothing (*less than). It can be friendship, platonic, romantic, sexual, etc.

Ambiguity has been part of lesbian (and gay) stories because of what has been allowed to be told in stories due to oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. I'm not denying that it's part of the history of queer relationships around the world, more so rejecting the idea that it's a "core" part of it, I rather acknowledge the history and evolve from it. As we move past ambiguity in our strive for better representation. Yuri to me is Sapphic relationships and the many forms it comes in, it's more than merely friendship like you describe so yes we'll have to agree to disagree. I've also seen the regular responses to this whole thing from your side as well, so it what it is. Also yes I do see it as cowardice when Lara swerves away from intimacy to ultimately release a safer narrative that attempts to appeal to a wider audience, including the ones that might be scared of a few L words like Love and Lesbian lol

I do think there is an positive queer argument that includes why yuri work have ambiguity. Queer relationships break existing frameworks. By breaking the frameworks, the borders between categories are broken. And without the usual categories, things are by definition a bit ambiguous. Of course new categories can be rebuilt, but in the interim there is ambiguity. I think we still are in the interim period (towards an equitable society for all).

But this is slightly off topic so I will stop my comments on this topic here.

last edited at Sep 22, 2026 10:54PM

Ambiguity has been part of lesbian (and gay) stories because of what has been allowed to be told in stories due to oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. I'm not denying that it's part of the history of queer relationships around the world, more so rejecting the idea that it's a "core" part of it, I rather acknowledge the history and evolve from it. As we move past ambiguity in our strive for better representation. Yuri to me is Sapphic relationships and the many forms it comes in, it's more than merely friendship like you describe so yes we'll have to agree to disagree. I've also seen the regular responses to this whole thing from your side as well, so it what it is. Also yes I do see it as cowardice when Lara swerves away from intimacy to ultimately release a safer narrative that attempts to appeal to a wider audience, including the ones that might be scared of a few L words like Love and Lesbian lol

Agreed. It's not that complicated and these relationships don't need poetics to explain them. Two girls dating isn't the birth of a new universe. There's little reason other than authors denying reality. It's not a coincidence that this ambiguity issue is a problem moreso in works from more socially conservative countries with creative traditions that still struggle to be open about queer relationships as widely. Outside of manga this issue is not present in the same way at all.

I'm not really understanding this discussion of breaking boundaries and being indefinable. It's definable. They date. They hang out. It's normal human stuff. Nothing is ambiguous about it. Other creators manage just fine. My webtoon series subscription list is currently filled with writers who have somehow managed to figure that out. I've read countless novels that did so as well and some good graphic novels recently. Other mangaka have figured it out, many of them favorites of this very site. I just feel like we're making this more complicated than it is and it feels like a cover less willing authors can use forever. "Are they dating, you ask? Well, I can't answer that, you can decide. And honestly we should first discuss the meaning of the word dating, and how nebulous that term can be..." I wish more authors talked like that and behaved this way in the non-yuri series I read so I could see how those readers would take it.

last edited at Sep 22, 2026 11:20PM

Maybe core was a bad choice of words, maybe “it was a big part that shaped the genre in the beginning, and so what a lot of fans like about it”
Obviously wanting to part from it is valid! my own comment says that is not what a portion of yuri fans want nowadays, my point is most about that these series have a public not only for cowardice but because for they like their yuri like that, and that doesn’t mean they don’t really like yuri, as a lot of important yuri works are/were like that.
Morishima Akiko said that a lesbian is a lesbian on her own but that yuri is what you want it to be. I think this apply a lot to this discussion that pop up a lot.
I think is cool people are branching, it will give more variety to original works.
Also, I don’t really have a side, just wanted to add a perspective, especially because a lot of discourse can be avoided sometimes, I think. I don’t think expecting more is bad, the thing with Gundam Mercury was hilarious, the phrase married couple was there the whole show, not wanting to officially confirm it is ridiculous, what difference it does?
But I think Mercury is different for me, because Sayonara Lala was since the very first trailer very shipping bait in my eyes tbh, that may be why I didn’t really expected that much discourse from the series. I don’t see it different from say, Uma Musume or Bocchi.

I think the question is "Do we really WANT to claim this trashfire as trans rep?"
There are other things we can claim instead! Ansatsu Kyoshitsu! Zombieland Saga! Pandora in the Crimson Shell!
Y'know, things that don't suck.

I must admit that I don't really understand what the concept of "rep" is, because it sounds like centering a character around a trait? But reading Lara as transfem just makes sense and I don't think whether somebody thinks or not that the story is good erases those parallels? Especially because Leo and Kota are characters there, too, and Kota in specific had its gender hidden by a finger in its document. Trans (coded or otherwise) characters should also exist in works that may be considered mediocre by others.

I don't know, I just like seeing transness in things and discuss their portrayal.

Also, learning that the writer for Lara also wrote the live-action adaptation for Young Ladies Don't Play Fighting Games (which had a brand-new ending where the main characters split up and never meet again for some reason) doesn't really help my feelings with Lara.

Ohh... that's kind of funny then. I don't mind them being separated forever (though I still don't think this is what really happens?), just wish it had a better set up for that if that was indeed the intention, because I enjoy the feelings that come with a farewell and the characters' own yearning.

PlazEmf's post does bring up an interesting point regarding the mermaids beyond their portrayal as the conservative presence controlling Lara, so it all goes back to how this really needed more episodes... but I can't dislike something with so much fish (for. reasons) and awesome visual storytelling, so ultimately I'm still fine with this because it remains true to how she didn't need to find "true love" and can now love on her own terms, and I have fun thinking about how aspects of it could have been better.

I think is a valid question, one reason that everyone says is homophobia but another reason that most people don’t want to admit is that yuri fans like that more than-less than and that is why a lot of yuri is like that.
I don’t think Sayonara Lala is that different to other series of the same vein, I don’t think it didn’t commit, I just think is what a portion of yuri fans don’t want to see nowadays.

I do not disagree that there are many of us who enjoy those relationships that seem to be stuck in a vague state (I sure do lol especially when it's because of reasons beyond the characters' control), where neither of the characters put clearly into words just what they are, or they never cross a line, but this still doesn't really make yuribait real. I say this because Yuri is a genre that focuses on the relationship between women, and yes, often that relationship is romantic in nature, with terms, structures and desires many are already familiar with, but it's natural that there would be works where what the characters have can be considered nebulous, or even something that is considered questionable and against all social norms.

And sometimes that nebulousness comes from homophobia, and that homophobia sometimes comes from being a direct victim of it and/or its perpetrator. The way that homophobia is used will vary from story to story, and it could come in the form of a tragedy where neither character gets to be happy with the other, comphet, anything really. But sometimes, that nebulousness comes from loving or wanting to be loved in an atypical way, from not wanting to be labeled or fitting into existent labels, from wanting to create something of your own.

But to affirm that something can be yuribait is to affirm that there is a real model of a relationship, only one way of women loving the other, and it then comes the question of who decides the criteria to make it count as real, what is that criteria, and why is it being enforced on a genre focused exactly on a gender minority (both cis and trans, even if not necessarily binary women) that feels even more the pressure to bend themselves into a type of romantic partner for men and end up bringing that trauma into their own dynamics. And while this may not have been what you meant, because I'm not trying to put words into anyone's mouth, it is what many others mean.

Like, TCR is my favorite yuri novel, and if I'm not misremembering as usual, the two main characters never declare their love to the other in dialogue by using words typical to that context, like "I love you", except in this one scene where the conflict gives a completely different weight to those words, one where it is not even about their love itself but what they are to the other, it uses other means to show what kind of relationship the two have through the setting itself and their explicit attraction to the other. So I thought that was interesting.
Another that I like that I has the discussion of relationship and labels themselves is Urasekai Picnic, but I think this interview with the author does this discussion much more justice than I ever could.

But there are many other yuri works that aren't so bold with the discussion around sexuality, that don't use words that denote a specific concept, that display those deep feelings, romantic or otherwise, through the character's actions instead or as something inherent to the other themes it deals with. The homophobia makes people deny the meaning behind those actions and choices. But that's still yuri, even if an author or the audience tries to deny it, like how there are authors who try to deny trans parallels out of transphobia. Sayonara Lara is yuri regardless of the characters getting together or not, and this is true to all the other works where the girls don't get a happy ending. We got to see what Lara and Mari felt for the other, and the story concluded with both alive because their love for the other saved them, and this is why I do understand the frustration of those who did want romance, because those vague things are more present in the genre, it comes with the misogyny that haunts us, but still, it isn't entirely about romance with clear features.

I don't know, maybe how I feel about it is different as someone who, for multiple reasons, feels they are defective in a way and is minimally interested in having a relationship with or any interest in others, and mostly enjoys seeing those things through yuri works instead. But I think both those types of stories should exist, they're both queer, and it's not really always going to be out of a desire to yet again shut down the sexuality of women, it's just another part of it, how some people love. This ambiguity is something I have experienced myself at some point, so it's not something that only exists in fiction, and it stings a bit to see it defined as something that solely exists to censor lesbian relationships.

Ambiguity has been part of lesbian (and gay) stories because of what has been allowed to be told in stories due to oppression, censorship, and sometimes cowardice. I'm not denying that it's part of the history of queer relationships around the world, more so rejecting the idea that it's a "core" part of it, I rather acknowledge the history and evolve from it. As we move past ambiguity in our strive for better representation. Yuri to me is Sapphic relationships and the many forms it comes in, it's more than merely friendship like you describe so yes we'll have to agree to disagree. I've also seen the regular responses to this whole thing from your side as well, so it what it is. Also yes I do see it as cowardice when Lara swerves away from intimacy to ultimately release a safer narrative that attempts to appeal to a wider audience, including the ones that might be scared of a few L words like Love and Lesbian lol

Agreed. It's not that complicated and these relationships don't need poetics to explain them. Two girls dating isn't the birth of a new universe. There's little reason other than authors denying reality. It's not a coincidence that this ambiguity issue is a problem moreso in works from more socially conservative countries with creative traditions that still struggle to be open about queer relationships as widely. Outside of manga this issue is not present in the same way at all. I'm not really understanding this discussion of breaking boundaries and being indefinable. It's definable. They date. They hang out. It's normal human stuff. Nothing is ambiguous about it. Other creators manage that "ambiguity' just fine. My webtoon series subscription list is currently filled with writers who have somehow managed to figure that out. I've read countless novels that did so as well and some good graphic novels recently. Other mangaka have figured it out, many of them favorites of this very site.

I didn’t mean that ambiguity is poetic, I was just stating that yuri has always been a genre with ambiguity very present. These type of works has a public even nowadays. Some people willingly like this ambiguity. Like maybe I am not explaining my self well but I am not voicing a opinion on the matter. To make an analogy, this is like miscommunication in anime and manga, no matter how people complain about it being dumb, not how real relationships works, etc., japanese audience loves it, they are aware comunication exist, but actively like that trope, is not that they don’t know how to communicate, or that works with communication doesn’t exist, they like it so it will keep coming back, even if modern works make characters communicate. That is what I was aiming with my comment.

I think the question is "Do we really WANT to claim this trashfire as trans rep?"
There are other things we can claim instead! Ansatsu Kyoshitsu! Zombieland Saga! Pandora in the Crimson Shell!
Y'know, things that don't suck.

I like this series, so I'm going to take the themes it portrays seriously and discuss it in depth. You can do whatever you want.

Also I can agree with @appstore, a significant part of yuri culture is this exact philosophy mentioned: "Morishima Akiko said that a lesbian is a lesbian on her own but that yuri is what you want it to be." It's part of why I didn't find the ending so jarring, but also why it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Because it's not queer - it's yuri. It's "different". So you're not bound to any responsibility, any hurt feelings, because it's not as real as the real thing. And it can feel unfair to put these responsibilities onto an author who is trying to portray a story, but I think it's unavoidable. It's a real thing that any artist should consider, because at the end of the day you are trying to portray an experience that will resonate with real people who have those experiences, so some sensitivity around those people's experiences is expected. But especially when that group of people are queer and often subject to the transgressions of a world that does to them what Lara's father did to her.

So I can understand why people are heartbroken, even if the way people lash out sometimes annoys me. Even I can acknowledge I'm being very optimistic about it relatively, but I'm still bummed for similar reasons. I just had such a fun time all the way till right before the finish line. I will never forget the giddiness I felt watching episodes 2 and 3 - when Mari handed Lara the cocoa can, and when the dagger first burst out of the lake. I don't want to think I wasted my time, or that I lead people on by recommending them this series.

I do not disagree that there are many of us who enjoy those relationships that seem to be stuck in a vague state (I sure do lol especially when it's because of reasons beyond the characters' control)

Me too! I have two types of yuri fan in me if I had to explain, I love korean yuri because it doesn’t play with sex which is something that I want to see but also I love stuff like MariMite, both are very different from each other and both offer something to me. You could say the very fact these authors like the ambiguity trope is homophobic, which is valid but I also think is simple because most authors simply see this as plots, archetypes, etc. In a genre, the author of MariMite was aware of lesbians, but her work still doesn’t erase ambiguity for example. If it’s homophobia or simply seeing yuri as a otaku genre, it’s up to everyone to decide, that part is not what I was aiming to question.

But to affirm that something can be yuribait is to affirm that there is a real model of a relationship, only one way of women loving the other, and it then comes the question of who decides the criteria to make it count as real, what is that criteria, and why is it being enforced on a genre focused exactly on a gender minority (both cis and trans, even if not necessarily binary women) that feels even more the pressure to bend themselves into a type of romantic partner for men and end up bringing that trauma into their own dynamics. And while this may not have been what you meant, because I'm not trying to put words into anyone's mouth, it is what many others mean.

With yuri bait I mean more shipping bait, not to deny anything but that at the end of the day anime and manga are a trade and that corporations genuinely give birth to some series thinking “this will sell for the shipping”
It’s fanservice but doesn’t mean it’s without love

But there are many other yuri works that aren't so bold with the discussion around sexuality, that don't use words that denote a specific concept, that display those deep feelings, romantic or otherwise, through the character's actions instead or as something inherent to the other themes it deals with. The homophobia makes people deny the meaning behind those actions and choices. But that's still yuri, even if an author or the audience tries to deny it, like how there are authors who try to deny trans parallels out of transphobia. Sayonara Lara is yuri regardless of the characters getting together or not, and this is true to all the other works where the girls don't get a happy ending. We got to see what Lara and Mari felt for the other, and the story concluded with both alive because their love for the other saved them, and this is why I do understand the frustration of those who did want romance, because those vague things are more present in the genre, it comes with the misogyny that haunts us, but still, it isn't entirely about romance with clear features.

Yes, that was something I wanted to express, yuri has many forms and the nebulous one is one of it, it may not be what some fans want but it’s what others want. Maybe it will die with time, I don’t really mind! I don’t have a opinion if it’s good or bad either. It just exist.