Forum › Hero-san and Former General-san discussion

Vashu
joined Apr 2, 2017

"hyper trans on" Every main character is trans, sorry authors word.

Tragedian%202
joined Oct 1, 2020

"hyper trans on" Every main character is trans, sorry authors word.

Based Melt giving transbians the power to have kids. She's the hero (villain?) we need and deserve.

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

What is the fun about a protagonist that gets beat up all the time? I don't get it.

Rapid Rabbit might be beaten every time. She is not a boring invencible hero. But she keeps fighting nonetheless. Because she IS a heroine. She doesn't do it for "fun".
And that's one of the things that caused others more powerful "on paper" than her (like general Honey) to follow her cause. Wich is also a power on its own right.

I never said she should be invecible. I don't like these types neither. I said she shouldn't lose all the time, because that makes her look weak AND boring. People, in the majority are.drawn to strong characters. But here, I'm always wondering: "Who is going to beat the shit of Rapid Rabbit this time?" So I learned to not expect much from her at this point.

I'm not even sure where you're even getting "gets beat up all the time from".

Outside of Honey Trap, Cool Down, X and the first Antinoid she fought together with Honey Trap, if you want to include that, she's won every fight shown so far. She was in a pinch against the first Antinoid because innocent bystanders got involved. Honey Trap, Cool Down and X are all elite Antinoids.

Notable enemies Hayate or Hayate+Honey Trap beat are:
- Destroy Antinoid, notable since it was her very first battle
- Kyouka (multiple times), an elite Antinoid.
- Orb Owl, a hero who had more advanced tech and better compatibility.
- X during the rematch, the freaking leader of the Antinoids

If you're complaining that she's not completely steamrolling her opponents, that's because those battles aren't shown and only the tougher battles are. If you don't think she's getting better, she went from pretty much instantly losing to Honey Trap in the first chapter to being able to keep up with Kyouka, not to mention the more obvious example of beating X in the rematch.

Exactly. Rapid Rabbit can't fight her own battles. Let´s see her record, shall we???

  • Lost to Honey Trap
  • That first Antinoid kicked her ass. She had to be saved and helped by Honey Trap.
  • Come on. Kyouka is a pathetic joke. And even so in her fisrt fight against her, she had to be saved by Honey Trap again after she was subdued and she didn't defeat her on her own. She never beat Kyouka on her own.
  • Got completely destroyed by Cool Down
  • Hina (Orb Owl) would've killed Hayate if Honet Trap hadn't saved her.... AGAIN!
  • Got5 absolutelly fucked by X

Her only "victories" on her own were against Hina, but only after Honey Trap had to stop Hina from killing her and also that destroy antinoid (her first fight) And she still let that guy blew up and kill that kid.

And I'm sure she'll get brutallized by this new idol girl too. Big deal she can "keep up" to someone. She still loses, she's still weak and evolved very little.

So I'll ask again... What's so fun about a character in an action manga that only gets beat up and only "wins" by being saved by others? I don't like weak characters. There is a saying that goes: "Want to be strong? Learn to fight alone."

last edited at Nov 18, 2020 5:15PM

Stardusttelepath2
joined Oct 15, 2014

"hyper trans on" Every main character is trans, sorry authors word.

Trans as in "transform".
Fun fact: The raws for this chapter actually say "Trance Up" for Moe's microphone mcguffin, but after this contradiction was brought up on Twitter, sometime clarified that "trans" is likely the intended spelling.

Stardusttelepath2
joined Oct 15, 2014

"Want to be strong? Learn to fight alone."

It's a /u/ manga. Not an /e/ manga.

Smallpred
joined Jun 29, 2015

I missed the last few updates (the last I read was Honey going back to the antinoids!) so reading them all in one swoop here, i really enjoyed it. Their fusion dance form, which can even switch modes, is really cool.
And man those two bad guys have a daughter now! And they're proud parents awwww

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

"Want to be strong? Learn to fight alone."

It's a /u/ manga. Not an /e/ manga.

Sorry Googled Anon, but I unironicaly had to google what E anime is. Ecchi. I don't get it. What ecchi has to do with this saying?

There are several animes that are not ecchi and follow this idea with strng leads who can stand their own alone. One Punch Man, Rumouri Kenshin, Afro Samurai, Hellsing, Yu Yu Hakusho.

Stardusttelepath2
joined Oct 15, 2014

"Want to be strong? Learn to fight alone."

It's a /u/ manga. Not an /e/ manga.

Sorry Googled Anon, but I unironicaly had to google what E anime is. Ecchi. I don't get it. What ecchi has to do with this saying?

Basically /e/ is the 4chan board for solo girls. The point I'm making is that this is a yuri tokusatsu manga that goes to show how much stronger heroes can be with the power of friendship/teamwork/lesbianism. (eg. X eventually loses she's she single and grumpy). Complaining that the yuri heroine needs help from the other yuri heroine to win the day is like complaining that none of the Power Rangers ever try to beat the monster of the week on their own.

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

"Want to be strong? Learn to fight alone."

It's a /u/ manga. Not an /e/ manga.

Sorry Googled Anon, but I unironicaly had to google what E anime is. Ecchi. I don't get it. What ecchi has to do with this saying?

Basically /e/ is the 4chan board for solo girls. The point I'm making is that this is a yuri tokusatsu manga that goes to show how much stronger heroes can be with the power of friendship/teamwork/lesbianism. (eg. X eventually loses she's she single and grumpy). Complaining that the yuri heroine needs help from the other yuri heroine to win the day is like complaining that none of the Power Rangers ever try to beat the monster of the week on their own.

And that's one of the reasons I hated power rangers. I also loath this "Power of friendship" crap. Is clichê and a lack of imagination. Also:

Kuroko from Murcielago... Is a lesbian surrounded by a harem of assassin girls and wins her fights almost always on her own. Vivio and Einheart from the Fateverse as well. And Vivid/VividStrike is so about friendship is sickening. Velverosa from Mage and Demon Queen? Adora from She-ra? Mapple (probably yuri) from Bofuri? Kirika from Noir? Just because she is a lesbian in an yuri/GL setting she needs to be an inept who always needs to be rescue by another lesbian? What? That makes no sense.

And what you seem tô forget is that this is also an action manga. Even if it's yuri, it's about fighting as well. Someone who always loses or, in the very few moments they win is not because of their strenght will still be viewed as weak.

last edited at Nov 19, 2020 12:16AM

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Kuroko from Murcielago... Is a lesbian surrounded by a harem of assassin girls and wins her fights almost always on her own. Vivio and Einheart from the Fateverse as well. And Vivid/VividStrike is so about friendship is sickening. Velverosa from Mage and Demon Queen? Adora from She-ra? Mapple (probably yuri) from Bofuri? Kirika from Noir? Just because she is a lesbian in an yuri/GL setting she needs to be an inept who always needs to be rescue by another lesbian? What? That makes no sense.

I don't really get your point tbh.Why being a lesbian has to do with everything ? Also, like some have said before, Rabbit has just found the device and started to fight on her own, without training. Of course she will get beaten by peoples who actually know how to fight, she has just fight antinoids of low levels. That's the main point between Rabbit and your examples, most of your examples is peoples who know how to fight and were trained (and Maple which is a special case).

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

Kuroko from Murcielago... Is a lesbian surrounded by a harem of assassin girls and wins her fights almost always on her own. Vivio and Einheart from the Fateverse as well. And Vivid/VividStrike is so about friendship is sickening. Velverosa from Mage and Demon Queen? Adora from She-ra? Mapple (probably yuri) from Bofuri? Kirika from Noir? Just because she is a lesbian in an yuri/GL setting she needs to be an inept who always needs to be rescue by another lesbian? What? That makes no sense.

I don't really get your point tbh.Why being a lesbian has to do with everything ? Also, like some have said before, Rabbit has just found the device and started to fight on her own, without training. Of course she will get beaten by peoples who actually know how to fight, she has just fight antinoids of low levels. That's the main point between Rabbit and your examples, most of your examples is peoples who know how to fight and were trained (and Maple which is a special case).

I made that response to another guy who said that since this was an yuri manga, it's normal that the lesbian #1 needs to always relly on lesbian #2 to fight. I disagreed with that setting examples of lesbians who can fight on their own. Being lesbian has nothing to do with anything. Even in the end of my comment I wrote "Tha makes no sense". Please. Read properly.

Second: Rapid ONLY gets beat up. After so many beatings someone would thought she would be able to handle herself. She's no longer an amateur. She had enough fights to get some experience, but it's still a MASSIVE jobber.

last edited at Nov 19, 2020 5:00PM

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

After so many beatings someone would thought she would be able to handle herself.

That's not eaxctly how it work thought.You get better by training, not by getting beaten up every fight, plus that, meaning Hayate isn't really strong.

joined Jul 26, 2016

Second: Rapid ONLY gets beat up. After so many beatings someone would thought she would be able to handle herself. She's no longer an amateur. She had enough fights to get some experience, but it's still a MASSIVE jobber.

Way I see it, the fundamental problem here is that you're expecting her to be Batman when she's actually Kick-Ass - picking fights with Batman no less.

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

After so many beatings someone would thought she would be able to handle herself.

That's not eaxctly how it work thought.You get better by training, not by getting beaten up every fight, plus that, meaning Hayate isn't really strong.

Holy shit. In my comment I made very clear she would get stronger by EXPERIENCE after many FIGHTS to NO LONGER BE AN AMATEUR, but you get only one sentence and focus on it. like that? Just like how misunderstood my previous comment, you did the same with this one.

And thank you for giving a link that exactly proves my point. Hayate is weak and I don't like her because of that. That's my whole point in this discussion.

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

Second: Rapid ONLY gets beat up. After so many beatings someone would thought she would be able to handle herself. She's no longer an amateur. She had enough fights to get some experience, but it's still a MASSIVE jobber.

Way I see it, the fundamental problem here is that you're expecting her to be Batman when she's actually Kick-Ass - picking fights with Batman no less.

That's...... Actually a quite fitting analogy....

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Holy shit. In my comment I made very clear she would get stronger by EXPERIENCE after many FIGHTS to NO LONGER BE AN AMATEUR

That will be true if she didn't fight stronger opponents each time. Just because you got beaten up by Medium level opponenents 2 or 3 times doesn't you can take on high level one all off a sudden.

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

Holy shit. In my comment I made very clear she would get stronger by EXPERIENCE after many FIGHTS to NO LONGER BE AN AMATEUR

That will be true if she didn't fight stronger opponents each time. Just because you got beaten up by Medium level opponenents 2 or 3 times doesn't you can take on high level one all off a sudden.

She had MANY fights over the manga. Not just 2 or 3 times and still can't beat medium and low level ones (she even had to be saved by Honey Trap fighting an antinoid). Let alone high level ones. Everyone is stronger than her in this manga, that's why I see her as the "Yamcha" of this series. There is nothing to discus about this particular subject. Someone who only loses and needs rescuing all the time is, by definition, weak. And Hayate has been like this since the very first episode and so far that hasn't changed.

2SpiritCherokeePrincess
Nakoruru
joined Jun 20, 2020

There is more than 1 kind of strength. Honey is the one winning battles for her? Great! If she hadn't won Honey over, the aliens would already be ruling the Earth. That's real power.

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 7:50PM

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

There is more than 1 kind of strength. Honey is the one winning battles for her? If she hadn't won Honey over, the aliens would already be ruling the Earth. That's real power.

So she should just be a motivational speaker, then. She seems be better at that then fighting. If it wasn't for Honey, she would've been defeated and dead more than three times now. And yes... Rapid only wins because of Honey.

last edited at Nov 19, 2020 8:02PM

Tragedian%202
joined Oct 1, 2020

There is more than 1 kind of strength. Honey is the one winning battles for her? If she hadn't won Honey over, the aliens would already be ruling the Earth. That's real power.

So she should just be a motivational speaker, then. She seems be better at that then fighting. If it wasn't for Honey, she would've been defeated and dead more than three times now. And yes... Rapid only wins because of Honey.

You do realize that this series is chock-full of sentai references? Heroes on your daily/weekly sentai shows never go full ape-shit on people until the last five minutes of an episode. Your average 5-10 year old kid isn't going to be able to comprehend complex plotlines (or at least, studios don't think they'll be able to comprehend them), so it's a lot easier to put in villains with an interesting design each week and run the same basic fight structure all over again. Sentai makes a shit-ton of money from merchandising, so the focus is much more on equipment than it is on moves- rather than having a whole set of skills or choreographing fights with unnamed moves, these shows just feature certain devices, weapons or powers that get activated at a certain point into the fight and wipe the enemy out in one hit. The reason you have big casts is, as mentioned by posters above, to instill in kids a respect for the power of friendship and cooperation, and also to create a larger cast of merchandisable characters with their own, individual merchandisable equipment.

This isn't just sentai-exclusive either- if you've ever watched a magical girl show aimed at kids, like Precure, or even pro-wrestling (John Cena's Five moves of Doom), you'll see a very set pattern to the fights. People want to see patterns, to predict the flow of fights, to boo when the heroes get beaten down and cheer when they pop back up, to sing along with heroic themes when they blast out, to say the invocation lines they've heard a hundred times before. People don't watch sentai to be shocked or surprised- they know it's predictable, and focus more on the emotional content (which, in this case, is our leading pair of lesbians).

The point is, if you're going into this series with huge expectations of thrilling fights, you're not going to be satisfied. Sometime is pretty committed to following a sentai-based story structure and using the tropes and conventions of the medium, which is the entire appeal. Audiences in Japan (for whom the story is intended), will probably lap it up and cheer every time they see a reference to something they recognize from their childhood. You seem to want the series to be something that it isn't, and although half-a-dozen people have explained this to you in various ways, the argument's still ongoing.

Basically, this is never going to turn into some kind of shonen battle series, because it was never supposed to be one in the first place. Your problems and complaints with the way fights are portrayed will never be addressed, because for the author, they aren't issues, but selling points. What you're doing here is the equivalent of criticizing a boxing match for not featuring piledrivers, or saying that a magical girl series is shit because none of the girls come up with 500 IQ plans to ambush the monsters that they know are going to show up each week. You're missing the point, and therefore, this argument has become pointless.

As a solution, you could either understand and accept what this series is trying to do with its fights and keep reading it for the yuri, or just drop it altogether if it isn't to your liking. This isn't like some arc or plot development that'll come and go- it's a vital part of the series' identity. Otherwise, this'll just turn into another one of those Futaribeya-type threads where one person criticizes the series for being something that it doesn't want to be and never promised to be, while others strive valiantly to explain an entire genre as good or bad storytelling.

Nights%20of%20azure%20avatar
joined May 28, 2016

Basically /e/ is the 4chan board for solo girls. The point I'm making is that this is a yuri tokusatsu manga that goes to show how much stronger heroes can be with the power of friendship/teamwork/lesbianism. (eg. X eventually loses she's she single and grumpy). Complaining that the yuri heroine needs help from the other yuri heroine to win the day is like complaining that none of the Power Rangers ever try to beat the monster of the week on their own.

Wait does that mean once X gets herself a wife/girlfriend then she'll start winning more?

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Basically /e/ is the 4chan board for solo girls. The point I'm making is that this is a yuri tokusatsu manga that goes to show how much stronger heroes can be with the power of friendship/teamwork/lesbianism. (eg. X eventually loses she's she single and grumpy). Complaining that the yuri heroine needs help from the other yuri heroine to win the day is like complaining that none of the Power Rangers ever try to beat the monster of the week on their own.

Wait does that mean once X gets herself a wife/girlfriend then she'll start winning more?

This kind of buff doesn't work with villains. Also X was in love with Honey Trap so she had to get off that before.

Gt00pn-odpc
joined Sep 30, 2017

There is more than 1 kind of strength. Honey is the one winning battles for her? If she hadn't won Honey over, the aliens would already be ruling the Earth. That's real power.

So she should just be a motivational speaker, then. She seems be better at that then fighting. If it wasn't for Honey, she would've been defeated and dead more than three times now. And yes... Rapid only wins because of Honey.

You do realize that this series is chock-full of sentai references? Heroes on your daily/weekly sentai shows never go full ape-shit on people until the last five minutes of an episode. Your average 5-10 year old kid isn't going to be able to comprehend complex plotlines (or at least, studios don't think they'll be able to comprehend them), so it's a lot easier to put in villains with an interesting design each week and run the same basic fight structure all over again. Sentai makes a shit-ton of money from merchandising, so the focus is much more on equipment than it is on moves- rather than having a whole set of skills or choreographing fights with unnamed moves, these shows just feature certain devices, weapons or powers that get activated at a certain point into the fight and wipe the enemy out in one hit. The reason you have big casts is, as mentioned by posters above, to instill in kids a respect for the power of friendship and cooperation, and also to create a larger cast of merchandisable characters with their own, individual merchandisable equipment.

This isn't just sentai-exclusive either- if you've ever watched a magical girl show aimed at kids, like Precure, or even pro-wrestling (John Cena's Five moves of Doom), you'll see a very set pattern to the fights. People want to see patterns, to predict the flow of fights, to boo when the heroes get beaten down and cheer when they pop back up, to sing along with heroic themes when they blast out, to say the invocation lines they've heard a hundred times before. People don't watch sentai to be shocked or surprised- they know it's predictable, and focus more on the emotional content (which, in this case, is our leading pair of lesbians).

The point is, if you're going into this series with huge expectations of thrilling fights, you're not going to be satisfied. Sometime is pretty committed to following a sentai-based story structure and using the tropes and conventions of the medium, which is the entire appeal. Audiences in Japan (for whom the story is intended), will probably lap it up and cheer every time they see a reference to something they recognize from their childhood. You seem to want the series to be something that it isn't, and although half-a-dozen people have explained this to you in various ways, the argument's still ongoing.

Basically, this is never going to turn into some kind of shonen battle series, because it was never supposed to be one in the first place. Your problems and complaints with the way fights are portrayed will never be addressed, because for the author, they aren't issues, but selling points. What you're doing here is the equivalent of criticizing a boxing match for not featuring piledrivers, or saying that a magical girl series is shit because none of the girls come up with 500 IQ plans to ambush the monsters that they know are going to show up each week. You're missing the point, and therefore, this argument has become pointless.

As a solution, you could either understand and accept what this series is trying to do with its fights and keep reading it for the yuri, or just drop it altogether if it isn't to your liking. This isn't like some arc or plot development that'll come and go- it's a vital part of the series' identity. Otherwise, this'll just turn into another one of those Futaribeya-type threads where one person criticizes the series for being something that it doesn't want to be and never promised to be, while others strive valiantly to explain an entire genre as good or bad storytelling.

Holy crap. You wrote so much just to completely and utterly miss my point. I don't have a problem with the "complexity" of the fights or the lack of it. The action scenes are quite good. I have a problem with how completely inept the MC is. So what? A sentai or whatever genre must have a weak MC? That's inane. I don't have a problem with an entire genre. I never said that. I have a problem with this one and it's proagonist. I can't take her serious.

Also, this is not an inate problem of Sentais. There are several Sentai MC who are strong on their own. Vivid and Nanoha - the apex of friendship crap - is a good example of it. You also used John Cena's example (weird, but okay). He rarely loses fairly. And it's an extremely simple storyline with a "MC" who is legitimatly strong and a rather good balance between losses and wins.

You read too much into it and read it complety wrong... Bringing up a genre I have no problem with. And no work is free from criticism and I should just accept a work because it's yuri? The tag says "action", so I gonna judge it because of the action as well. People give Citrus shit because of the forced drama not because of the yuri in it. I'm not gonna focus on one aspect of a series and ignore the other. They are both part of it.

The manga is trying to send the message of friendship to little kids? Cool. But they can do that without presenting a hero so damn weak. There are examples of that.

last edited at Nov 20, 2020 2:50PM

Tragedian%202
joined Oct 1, 2020

Also, this is not an inate problem of Sentais. There are several Sentai MC who are strong on their own. Vivid and Nanoha - the apex of friendship crap - is a good example of it.

Vivid and Nanoha aren't sentai protagonists, they're magical girls. Lyrical Nanoha was also specifically made to be more action-packed and cater to adult men who liked explosions, so it's extremely atypical even for a magical girl series. You're using the exceptions to criticize the norms, while also completely and totally missing the actual genre that the norms come from.

You read too much into it and read it complety wrong... Bringing up a genre I have no problem with. And no work is free from criticism and I should just accept a work because it's yuri? The tag says "action", so I gonna judge it because of the action as well. People give Citrus shit because of the forced drama not because of the yuri in it. I'm not gonna focus on one aspect of a series and ignore the other. They are both part of it.

Again, you're free to criticize the action to the high heavens, but it's not gonna change, because there is a market for it that clearly appreciates what Sometime is doing (or the manga wouldn't get a whole second arc). As stated before, your grievances are this manga's literal USP, so if you see it fit to criticize the 'action' for not matching your expectations, you'll just end up here every time a new chapter comes out, complaining about the same tired old issue. If that's what you want to do, then knock yourself out. I expect that people who appreciate the series for what it is will simply ignore you as time goes by.

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

I don't even see the point of continuing that conversation, it's just going in circle.

To reply you must either login or sign up.