It seems very specific and embarrassing. I like how her classmates are "ask her, she's the LESBIAN!" and she's like "wait, I found about the whole thing by watching YOU TWO making out" and they're all "We had a Pure, Story S, Romantic Two-girl friendship, a practice romance for dating boys and getting married later!" It's like this one anecdote has the whole of yuri from the 70s till now in it. Well, if it was the 70s Tamamusi would die tragically.

The way the last panel was phrased though, it feels like it's saying they're still together...?

The interesting part (at least from a western perspective) is that traditional Japanese society has very similar attitudes regarding the "impurity" of sex despite institutional religion having a much weaker influence on their culture.

Ironic, given how A) the Bible (or at least Catholics' interpretation of it) says go forth and multiply, and B) how comfortable the Japanese were with showing nude or otherwise sexual art just before it opened up to the West (the Fisherman's Wife, anyone?)

I feel like this explains the Bright and Cheery Amnesiac (and Yamada, from Kase-san, among others), where this weird ambivalence towards sex both drives the entire plot and is held up as some kind of goal.

It's like, For chrissake, just fuck your girlfriend.

This comment doesn't make any sense.

Ever noticed how often the girl who is getting her pussy licked in hentai or NSFW yuri protests "But it's dirty?" That's because in Japan, it's still considered socially unacceptable for a woman to enthusiastically embrace sex. They're supposed to protest a bit, like they don't really like it, otherwise they're a slut.

That's what Blastaar is referring to.

I feel like this explains the Bright and Cheery Amnesiac (and Yamada, from Kase-san, among others), where this weird ambivalence towards sex both drives the entire plot and is held up as some kind of goal.

It's like, For chrissake, just fuck your girlfriend.

This comment doesn't make any sense.

Ever noticed how often the girl who is getting her pussy licked in hentai or NSFW yuri protests "But it's dirty?" That's because in Japan, it's still considered socially unacceptable for a woman to enthusiastically embrace sex. They're supposed to protest a bit, like they don't really like it, otherwise they're a slut.

That's what Blastaar is referring to.

I'm not even sure that's quite the case--Yamada was primed to love and be loved by a girl on like page 2 of the series.

What sex with a girl (or with anyone) was, exactly what it entailed, and how one gets from being two people in a room not having sex to being two people in a room having sex just seems to have taken an extraordinarily long time to penetrate the terra-cotta flowerpot that encases Yamada's consciousness. And her perfect girlfriend was never going to push faster than Yamada was willing to go.

'Cause that's how perfect girlfriends roll.

I feel like this explains the Bright and Cheery Amnesiac (and Yamada, from Kase-san, among others), where this weird ambivalence towards sex both drives the entire plot and is held up as some kind of goal.

It's like, For chrissake, just fuck your girlfriend.

This comment doesn't make any sense.

Ever noticed how often the girl who is getting her pussy licked in hentai or NSFW yuri protests "But it's dirty?" That's because in Japan, it's still considered socially unacceptable for a woman to enthusiastically embrace sex. They're supposed to protest a bit, like they don't really like it, otherwise they're a slut.

That's what Blastaar is referring to.

...why am I reminded of this?

And that last panel makes me giggle way too much. savage af

Ever noticed how often the girl who is getting her pussy licked in hentai or NSFW yuri protests "But it's dirty?" That's because in Japan, it's still considered socially unacceptable for a woman to enthusiastically embrace sex. They're supposed to protest a bit, like they don't really like it, otherwise they're a slut.

That's what Blastaar is referring to.

...why am I reminded of this?

And that last panel makes me giggle way too much. savage af

This is what I always think of.

That's what Blastaar is referring to.

I'm not even sure that's quite the case

Ah, well apologies for misrepresenting you, then.

I feel like this explains the Bright and Cheery Amnesiac (and Yamada, from Kase-san, among others), where this weird ambivalence towards sex both drives the entire plot and is held up as some kind of goal.

It's like, For chrissake, just fuck your girlfriend.

This comment doesn't make any sense. For starters Kase and Yamada have had sex, plus the series is still ongoing, so how is that an end goal? Maybe if you're talking about the first part of the series, but I'm talking about the series as a whole.

Yamada's "innocence" is ludicrous. It's not just that she doesn't know the first thing about sex; she acts like she has no idea what it is. She's baffled and surprised every time they go further than holding hands. Kase's physical attraction to her is blatant, but she doesn't seem like she can really wrap her head around it.

The fact that this goes on so long (past the point, as you mention, that they've ACTUALLY HAD SEX) is just bewildering.

And this isn't like insecurity on the part of Yamada; it's this weird ambivalence where the manga portrays a sexual relationship, but one of the participants is simultaneously an innocent ingenue. Yamada barely seems to know they're in an exclusive, sexual relationship... which is kind of the source of the current conflict between them, right? That's why Kase-san is so insecure?

Also with Bright and Cheery Amnesia they literally state early on that they've had sex numerous times in the past, then the amnesia happened and they're rebuilding their relationship back to the spot where they're comfortable having sex again, plus the idea there is that their rolls have somewhat reversed. Which is in my opinion a really fun dynamic between them.

Every other panel of that manga is about how sexy they find each other. It should take one conversation to get Amnesiac to the point where she can have sex; she's portrayed as a super-horndog. But again, the manga presents her inability to grasp the possibility of literal sex as some kind of weird, adorable innocence.

I understand we live in a day and age where many people are convinced that sex is the most in important part of a relationship, if you're not having sex right now something is wrong with you, that's what someone's friends might say or the pop culture media they're consuming with the likes of music and tv.

This doesn't enormously have anything to do with what I'm saying. This isn't about a couple that doesn't happen to prioritize sex; this is about manga writers wanting to show a sexy relationship, but also to idealize some kind of sweet, innocent purity.

That's what Blastaar is referring to.

I'm not even sure that's quite the case

Ah, well apologies for misrepresenting you, then.

No problem. It’s just that, unlike all those many, many stories you’re so accurately alluding to, in the case of that particular character I think the reticence comes from Yamada’s inherent Cloud of Sexual Unknowing rather than moral or social qualms about “purity,” or the feeling that “it’s dirty” and certainly not “what would people think?”

Just more like a question-mark-shaped sprout coming out of Yamada’s head in regard to the all-important “what comes after two-girls kissing?” question.

EDIT: and to be clear, that profound sexual naïveté is mostly in the past, although all the recent flashback chapters may be confusing the issue. Kase’s current insecurity isn’t explicitly about sex; it’s about seeing Yamada growing in different directions now that they’re in college.

And if we want to keep talking about that series we probably ought to take the conversation to that forum.

EDIT2: karp, I do think you’re right about Bright and Cheery Amnesia generally; it doesn’t really make sense to have the amnesiac character be simultaneously such a horndog and yet so newly afraid of sex—why is that the single aspect of her personality to get wiped so completely clean?

But I think that’s just the necessary mechanical setup for all the gags and comic reversals rather than the articulation of an ideal or an ideology about sexual expression.

last edited at Apr 22, 2018 10:59PM

No problem. It’s just that, unlike all those many, many stories you’re so accurately alluding to, in the case of that particular character I think the reticence comes from Yamada’s inherent Cloud of Sexual Unknowing rather than moral or social qualms about “purity,” or the feeling that “it’s dirty” and certainly not “what would people think?”

Oh, I agree 100% and have said as much in the past. I just thought you were pitching your comments more broadly, and was simply using Kase and Yamada as illustrative examples.

I think when people say that sex in yuri manga is the "end goal," they're not referring to the act of the characters having sex as the ultimate end goal. They're referring to when the AUDIENCE gets to SEE it. Going back to Kase-san, it's no coincidence that they waited until the final chapter of the manga's -INITIAL RUN- for them to do it. (Remembering that "Yamada and Kase-san" is a sequel, not the initial series) Multiple ships in Strawberry Panic are seen having sex only towards the tail end of the series, even if they have explicitly been mentioned if not shown to have had past sexual history. In Girl Friends, Akko and Mari don't have sex until the very end of the series. And the list goes on.

While it's true that in Japan and many other parts of the world, sexuality is considered "impure," and virgins are cherished for their perceived "innocence," I believe that's only one part of the problem here. Sex isn't withheld solely because of its connotations as a perceived loss of innocence, but also as a metaphor. In virtually every romance, the end goal is for each member of the relationship to come to a mutual understanding. When after many long chapters of conflict, the two characters finally come to an understanding and express their mutual love through intimacy. During intercourse, their bodies and their souls are laid bare, so that their partner may truly understand them, literally inside and out. The members of the relationship come to understand how the other feels, what they're really hiding beneath the mask and layers of clothing and/or makeup.

It's an effective metaphor, I think, and a powerful statement of how simultaneously simple and complex a relationship can be, having layers that are both primal and relatable to virtually every human while also having unique, introspective layers that only the participants can truly understand.

My problem isn't really with the idea of sex as an end goal for the reader (though it is a delicate balance that can easily be done wrong, and has been done wrong on countless occasions) as much as the unrealistic portrayals of sex that seem to be more catered toward making it visually appealing than actually integral to the plot. The mass media in general (in ALL parts of the world) tends to show sex as just the best gosh darn thing ever and if you haven't had it yet, then wow you're really missing out! And if you ever had a bad sexual experience, then you're going to be the laughing stock of the entire Girl Community forever!! What I'd like is if more shows demonstrated a first time experience with sex as how it normally is: That is, awkward, often uncomfortable, but nevertheless a learning experience. Not something that fundamentally changes who you are or your place in the world, but just one of the many stepping stones you will encounter as you grow and develop as a person.

And in my opinion, more than just serving the narrative, leaving in the nuances and awkwardities of sex makes it more appealing even if all you're looking for is something to get off to. It adds dynamic and charm to the encounter, gives you more thoughts and ideas to explore, etc. Because humans aren't perfect and sex is done by humans, then sex shouldn't be, either. It should have ups, downs. Funny moments, heartwarming moments, sometimes it can be sad, sometimes it can be contemplative. There's just so much you can do with sex as a plot device aside from "oh yeh feels so gewd." It feels like a sort of waste of narrative potential, especially in a series like Kase-san, where exploring one's sexual identity is such a prominent aspect of the characters. And Kase-san is one of my favorite manga ever, so I don't say that to put it down, just to note that it could have been better in this regard, as could many of my favorite yuri stories.

I think when people say that sex in yuri manga is the "end goal," they're not referring to the act of the characters having sex as the ultimate end goal. They're referring to when the AUDIENCE gets to SEE it. Going back to Kase-san, it's no coincidence that they waited until the final chapter of the manga's -INITIAL RUN- for them to do it. (Remembering that "Yamada and Kase-san" is a sequel, not the initial series)

Also remembering that the author said early on that their editor insisted sex was out in the magazine version of Hiarai, but was okay when they moved to the online version with the last few chapters.

Nezchan posted:

Also remembering that the author said early on that their editor insisted sex was out in the magazine version of Hiarai, but was okay when they moved to the online version with the last few chapters.

I'm not too familiar with the behind-the-scenes stuff of Kase-san so I was not aware of that, though I don't think it would have changed TOO much in terms of the manga's pacing even if there wasn't an embargo on sex.

But then this isn't the Kase-san discussion, so I fear we've moved off-topic quite a bit.

Also, to the person who brought up Christianity, that's probably got little to do with it given Christianity isn't all that big an influence in Japanese culture as far as i know.

Also also, asexual lesbians exist. Or sex might simply not be a priority for that couple and they get on just fine with romance. Spending time together, kissing, being an exclusive couple, etc.

Also also also I didn't have anything else to say but wanted it to look like I was contributing.

Oh! And also also also also, having the other girl and her lover only kissing and therefore not the same as the full-on lesbian for the purposes of the scriptwriter's story is funny, aka the Roger Rabbit Rule. So the why doesn't really matter much.

I think the conversation had drifted to those manga that seem to want to have it both ways simultaneously, with couples being overtly sexual (even if the sex isn’t explicitly depicted) while also upholding this story’s notion of “purity.”

I think both series generally fit that description, but in neither case (arguably) is the treatment of sex really about an ideal as much as a set-up for goofy gags (Bright and Cheery) or (in Kase-san) a quirk of the characterization (one which is further explained by Nezchan’s facts about the publication restrictions).

In both cases it basically seems to be about the comedy—one half of each couple is sexually avid but restrained and the other person is reticent but not unwilling (otherwise you have a standard seduction-chase scenario). I think both series are goofy and charming and utterly unsuited to modeling anything at all about real-world sexual behavior except the need to be considerate about how fast and how far one’s partner is prepared to go. But that last part matters quite a bit.

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 12:02AM

tamamusi is literally high school senior me as the in-denial gay who didn't know yuri exist and only read straight hentai until i saw two girls kissing behind the school.

yuri sure have saved my life.

tamamusi is literally high school senior me as the in-denial gay who didn't know yuri exist and only read straight hentai until i saw two girls kissing behind the school.

yuri sure have saved my life.

That's great to hear, although if instead of "behind the school" that couple had chosen "onstage with the curtain about to go up" even more people might have been helped.

(It's details like that--unlikely but not connected to anything else--that make me think this story really is autobiographical.)

One important way that Kase-san differs from lots of other mass-market yuri: Kase herself is super gay. She was ogling Yamada from Day 1. There is no doubt in her mind which gender she's attracted to.

And in my opinion, more than just serving the narrative, leaving in the nuances and awkwardities of sex makes it more appealing even if all you're looking for is something to get off to. It adds dynamic and charm to the encounter, gives you more thoughts and ideas to explore, etc. Because humans aren't perfect and sex is done by humans, then sex shouldn't be, either. It should have ups, downs.

Prism has, so far, the best depiction of awkward first time teenage sex I've seen.

Hanjuku Joshi is a close second, though.

But then this isn't the Kase-san discussion, so I fear we've moved off-topic quite a bit.

Also, to the person who brought up Christianity, that's probably got little to do with it given Christianity isn't all that big an influence in Japanese culture as far as i know.

Not AS Christianity, no, but Japanese culture was deeply influenced by the constitution and laws established by the American government after WWII, and their views on sex and nudity were affected. Those laws were themselves motivated by American Christian sensibilities, hence, Christian thought hand a larger than you would expect effect on Japanese culture.

I read it as Tamamusi being genuinely in awe of the kissing-only couple, with no direct comment on or comparison to her own sexuality or relationship history.

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 7:28AM

I read it as Tamamusi being genuinely in awe of the kissing-only couple, with no direct comment on or comparison to her own sexuality or relationship history.

Right—not all stories are moral allegories or implicit manuals for proper behavior.

What kind of twisted foreplay is just kissing for 10 years?

Maybe they're an ace couple...

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 8:31AM