@RandomFanZ

There is nothing wrong or shameful about Mashiro's previous job [There are many worst jobs that exploits innocent people...At least people are mostly happy thanks to the Lily job...] but I can see MC's point of view and how she got a tiny tiny bit (Normal amount actually) jealous, MC would not be that insecure or jealous if MC had previous relationships before Mashiro (Has experience on what to do or not to do) but sadly this is her 1st and hopefully last relationship.

I think there can also be some tension from someone with many partners and someone with few/one partner relating to sex differently, which is probably exacerbated with one of the them having literally been in the sex industry.

Even if you're both okay with the other's history in theory, there can be these times where you fail to understand how the other person is thinking about. I see that as the case here, where Mashiro seemed to fail to notice that any of this would bother Makino seriously and where Mashiro thought what she was doing was not a big deal. And of course Makino wasn't thinking about what it was like to be stigmatized in the way Mashiro has been since that's totally outside Makino's life experience. It's a very realistic misunderstanding for them to have.

I think it will be easy for them to make up during their next conversation since they can probably see each other's perspective if they're calm and talk about it.

make-up sex

Oh, she's screwed up.
I get she was panicking, but it's a bit surprising she said those things, considering she's always been okay with Mashiro doing sex work.

Annnd the author makes Makino say something mean to make her the unambiguous bad guy in the argument so we don’t have to deal with Mashiro essentially going behind her back when Makino SAID this girl made her uncomfortable and outright just showing her pussy to said girl.

I hope this get addressed as well, and the drama is resolved quickly. Let supermom cook.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 8:10AM

Annnd the author makes Makino say something mean to make her the unambiguous bad guy in the argument so we don’t have to deal with Mashiro essentially going behind her back when Makino SAID this girl made her uncomfortable and outright just showing her pussy to said girl. I’m gonna be real that pisses me off quite a bit. Mashiro was unambiguously in the wrong at the end of the last chapter and now she’ll be treated as totally justified because the author had Makino say mean things.

What Mashiro did was misunderstand what boundaries Makino wanted from her, that's a pretty fucking far cry from Makino saying "you'd fuck anyone without resistance or caring". It's a genuinely really disgusting thing to say that's a very common unexamined sentiment that feeds into things like "jokes" about how sex workers can't be assaulted, only "robbed" and, particularly relevant here, thinking that sex work permanently taints a person's character and values. And it's not all that out of nowhere that Makino would say something like that in this moment, because the notion is unquestioned before now. Her relationship with Mashiro didn't really improve her opinion of sex workers, and plenty of people buy sex while still disrespecting them. She clearly instead just stopped thinking of Mashiro as a sex worker at all, but then that label instantly rushed back to her when she saw that scene and interpreted it as sex, even though Mashiro had told her that she quit and Makino has never once before been given reason to mistrust her. If Makino only got mad at "hey don't show your genitals to a casual friend I feel really uncomfortable with it" then she be in the right here, but that's not what she got mad about. She got mad due to her misinterpreting the scene as Mashiro prostituting herself behind Makino's back.

It's also really common that people get along well until one of them is angered/stressed, at which point the latent bigotry or psychological issues come out. In a romantic context, this can be where the relationship either ends, which is why many don't make it past 6 months

Makino spent her time goofing off and focusing on her games because she was raised in a way where she felt like she would never amount to anything. As a result, it seems like she's up to date on exactly zero social issues. She's not even particularly good with lesbian social issues. It makes sense she'd have some unexamined biases that she picked up from society that are obviously wrong if she thinks about them, but that she never had any reason to think about until now.

Also one of the dangerous things about anger is that you feel justified in doing things you wouldn't normally, almost like being drunk or on drugs. Even if you are 'justified' in being angry, it's hard to keep your actions strictly justified if you are dominated by that mindset. Many people would then find some way to self justify their actions after the fact or even alter their memories (seriously, that's a thing that's been studied), but Makino was able to quickly realize she went too far.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 9:37AM

What Mashiro did was misunderstand what boundaries Makino wanted from her, that's a pretty fucking far cry from Makino saying "you'd fuck anyone without resistance or caring".

To piggyback: Mashiro welcomed Makino happily while casually explaining how she was helping the Kouhai before Makino's outburst, showing she didn’t think there was a problem or a secret to hide. She was explaining herself, like the other commenter wanted.

They didn't have a constructive and clear discussion a few chapters ago and that's been the lingering issue. It opened the door to the miscommunication that's happened.

Now they actually need to fully talk, rather than Makino dominating the conversation and unilaterally ending it like she did last time when Mashiro barely got a word in, despite her own reservations.

A miscommunication and slight difference in outlook is less bad than calling your loving GF "easy," because of her previous work. The implications of that common thought process are more damaging. I'm glad the author is calling that out, using Mashiro's good character to do so like always.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 9:27AM

All the talk of cheating, miscommunication, etc and I’m just thinking how she has a smart phone and could’ve pulled up any one of the millions of pictures out there to give examples. Like, literally no reason to give a full frontal preview.

All the talk of cheating, miscommunication, etc and I’m just thinking how she has a smart phone and could’ve pulled up any one of the millions of pictures out there to give examples. Like, literally no reason to give a full frontal preview.

Do we have any reason to think Mashiro might have weak personal boundaries?

All the talk of cheating, miscommunication, etc and I’m just thinking how she has a smart phone and could’ve pulled up any one of the millions of pictures out there to give examples. Like, literally no reason to give a full frontal preview.

Do we have any reason to think Mashiro might have weak personal boundaries?

Essentially no. She was all in on the lesbian incest business partners relationship and tied her self worth to that imagined relationship, but otherwise she is relatively together and mentally healthy. She has in fact protected her boundaries with Makino this arc, when it was something she cared about (giving the advice, expressing that being stereotyped bothered her).

It's much more likely that nudity and/or showing underwear (we didn't see which, she could have been demonstrating with a gesture) to another woman is simply not a big deal to her due to her experience as a sex worker, especially when she is in a nonsexual context of giving advice to another worker now.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 5:13PM

otherwise she is relatively together and mentally healthy.

Mashiro was outright suicidal not long ago.

I don't remember if there were hints of an abusive childhood.

otherwise she is relatively together and mentally healthy.

Mashiro was outright suicidal not long ago.

I don't remember if there were hints of an abusive childhood.

I did say relatively. Admittedly, if the suicidality was going to resurface, this would be the situation. Her alternative to her sister essentially questioned her worth as a partner and now she's spending the night alone, with no one to comfort her. Despite that, she is not acting like someone willing to repress wanting her boundaries or who is desperate for Makino's approval at all costs. Otherwise her behavior would have been very different this arc and she would be willing to tolerate aspects like letting Makino have veto power over her friends.

We also haven't heard of any parental issues, but we could imagine most mild to moderately conservative parents (ie typical Japanese parent) wouldn't be thrilled about their daughter being both a lesbian and sex worker. So there could be some level of neglect/abandonment or the sisters could even have been disowned by their parents, which would tie into Makino attributing her value to her sister and romantic relationship. An active abuse history would be a new reveal, though.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 5:41PM

It's much more likely that nudity and/or showing underwear (we didn't see which, she could have been demonstrating with a gesture) to another woman is simply not a big deal to her due to her experience as a sex worker, especially when she is in a nonsexual context of giving advice to another worker now.

My impression as well, especially given how happy she was to see Makino enter the apartment. I'd add importantly that the Kouhai is not just a random woman.

She's a friend trying to join Mashiro's profession, essentially a coworker asking for work advice from a mentor. That doesn't mean Mashiro would flash any old random woman. Possibly something she was comfortable doing with other friends in the industry in similar casual teaching situations. Just different experiences that they should talk about.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 6:10PM

@Eukene
Yeah, I agree with most of your good points lol, hopefully the wonderful author won't drag this conflict and misunderstanding out too much and they can clear things up/make up when they are calm (Hopefully just 2 chapters at the most cuz if 3+ of this stuff will be clear something is wrong with the story.)

@Rainbow8
...100% agree lol, bonus point if MC does it in front of Kouhai-chan to exert her dominance XD

[Friendly remainder]
People might have forgotten but Mashiro backstory was told to MC when she got scared of thunder, Thunder bringing back the memories of the time when her Parents toss her away to the orphanage/abandon her to the orphanage...Mashiro remember this clearly when it very stormy (Lightning/Thunder) so she was at least 5-6+ year at the time instead of being a baby that can't remember much.

Mashiro sure grow much from her initial state from chapter 1, becoming mentally stronger and the challenges she faced with the MC in the past chapters [Able to let go her previous feeling for her sister(Not blood related but sibling like due to same orphanage), MC punching her mother for Mashiro and etc. etc. etc.]

Just hope it all gets resolve in 1-2 chapters and become happy/silly again XD

I mean we have other plot lines we can focus on like the Loner Pro gamer having a crush on her friend(Best friend/only friend?) and how MC & Mashiro might help her out or Kouhai adventures in the Lily job or at worst case...MC studying and focusing on her career for a job to support Mashiro...Urk studying...

[Friendly remainder]
People might have forgotten but Mashiro backstory was told to MC when she got scared of thunder, Thunder bringing back the memories of the time when her Parents toss her away to the orphanage/abandon her to the orphanage...Mashiro remember this clearly when it very stormy (Lightning/Thunder) so she was at least 5-6+ year at the time instead of being a baby that can't remember much.

Damn, sounds like I need to reread this one because I don't remember that at all. That matches the neglect/abandonment background that would fit her personality traits, though.

It's also really common that people get along well until one of them is angered/stressed, at which point the latent bigotry or psychological issues come out. In a romantic context, this can be where the relationship either ends, which is why many don't make it past 6 months

Makino spent her time goofing off and focusing on her games because she was raised in a way where she felt like she would never amount to anything. As a result, it seems like she's up to date on exactly zero social issues. She's not even particularly good with lesbian social issues. It makes sense she'd have some unexamined biases that she picked up from society that are obviously wrong if she thinks about them, but that she never had any reason to think about until now.

Also one of the dangerous things about anger is that you feel justified in doing things you wouldn't normally, almost like being drunk or on drugs. Even if you are 'justified' in being angry, it's hard to keep your actions strictly justified if you are dominated by that mindset. Many people would then find some way to self justify their actions after the fact or even alter their memories (seriously, that's a thing that's been studied), but Makino was able to quickly realize she went too far.

You are laying a lot at the feet of makino while mashiro clearly have boundary issues and is holding a lack of communication against makino

Mashiro has not violated any agreements with Makino, nor has she ignored Makino's boundaries. Doing something your partner doesn't like isn't ignoring their boundaries. Otherwise, it would be violating your partner's boundaries to, say wear clothing they disliked. My hypothetical partner (who, lets be honest, I would be talking to now if I had one instead of posting about yuri comics) could feel that my clothing reflects badly on them and want to have a conversation about that, they could choose to end the relationship, etc. Still, even if my clothing was strange or offensive by mainstream cultural norms, none of this would mean I was violating their boundaries. If they pressed the issue, they would in fact be violating mine, by trying to control what clothing I wear.

The basic thing here: Mashiro gets to decide what body parts she shows to what people, who her friends are, and to whom she gives business advice. Makino doesn't get to unilaterally "set boundaries" about this. If Makino percieves any of this as a lack of faithfulness (the one thing Mashiro did commit to doing) then they should talk about that, because clearly Mashiro didn't see it that way and was open about what she was doing.

Has Mashiro done anything wrong? Well, she failed to notice how uncomfortable Makino was, nor did she try to talk with Makino more or reassure Makino when she was feeling insecure. Instead, Mashiro treated it like any typical outburst of Makino, like when Makino acts possessive of a fictional character. Failing to notice that it was a serious issue for Makino and instead plowing ahead is enough to warrant an apology, so I am not saying she is completely blameless.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 8:14PM

It's much more likely that nudity and/or showing underwear (we didn't see which, she could have been demonstrating with a gesture) to another woman is simply not a big deal to her due to her experience as a sex worker, especially when she is in a nonsexual context of giving advice to another worker now.

I doubt this is true, and it's implicitly yet another whorephobic sentiment. Don't you think it's more likely that Mashiro was able to take on that job because she already wasn't bothered by letting someone see her body, rather than her entering the job with a "normal" concept of needing to hide your body and being permanently altered by her experience working there? To me, showing pubic hair to a friend asking a pubic hair specific question doesn't seem to be particularly extraordinary to the point of needing to be justified as a character trait, especially for someone from a culture where getting naked with your friends for public bathing is a thing already lol.

Well, that was a strong criticism of my idea. Though thank you for sharing it, as avoiding stigmitization is important.

I personally wouldn’t know what it is more common in terms of before/after feelings and have no connections to the industry. Still, I don’t think people only work in the sex industry because they were already completely comfortable with nudity. At least in universe, the story is in fact showing us a character who has hang ups and still wants to transition the industry. Many fields involve aspects that are initially stressful or hard to deal with, though to what degree varies from person to person, that then become normal after exposure over time. Another example would be the sight of blood for someone in medicine.

In any case, I am not meaning to make the argument that she had a strong sense of shame around her body and was changed by the industry. I mean that I think she’s in “business mode” here. The way someone talks to a colleague is different than the way they talk to an outsider. The business mode would certainly only be learnt after being involved in the industry, regardless of what industry we’re talking about. Few other industries would involve the technicalities of shaving your pubic hair, so this situation came up precisely because of the specific industry she was involved in.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 8:59PM

I agree that the specific context of the conversation was what led to her showing her body casually, I just don't think the context of sex work is particularly important to the showing pubic hair. Any sort of intimate conversation about sex with a platonic friend could lead to this sort of thing, I've experienced this sort of thing without any sex work being involved past or present lol. Some people just have a reduced sense of shame, especially in a private friendly context.

I will say though, the specific pose of sitting on the floor and spreading her legs feels much less intuitive. It feels a little forced by the author tbh, but it's not to the point of unbelievability because sometimes people just do stupid inexplicable shit lol. It'd feel more natural to me if they were drinking a bit, that would make "how do I show off my pubic hair to answer this question? Well, I'm already sitting on the floor so I'll just move my legs out of the way lol" feel pretty understandable as a stupid thing to do.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 9:00PM

I agree that it would not be the sole reason. However, any discomfort would have been worked through and processed so that it is now not a big deal for her. I don't know if the initial discomfort was none, a little, or a lot, but I would guess not none.

I can say that, for me, showing someone my pubic hair would be fairly extraordinary. I have been inside gym changing rooms, but that doesn't mean I would do what Mashiro did. Feel free to interpret me having strong body shame, but I can only speak from the perspective of my own life experience here. That doesn't mean I would judge you or another person for acting that way around people who don't mind it, but this behavior would not be typical in terms of myself or what I've experienced from others.

I do think it's reasonable for "don't show your genitals to a non-lover" to be considered common sense. Like yeah there are exceptions for doctors and such, but Makino blowing up is not crazy, even if how she expressed it was Bad.

I agree that it would not be the sole reason. However, any discomfort would have been worked through and processed so that it is now not a big deal for her. I don't know if the initial discomfort was none, a little, or a lot, but I would guess not none.

I can say that, for me, showing someone my pubic hair would be fairly extraordinary. I have been inside gym changing rooms, but that doesn't mean I would do what Mashiro did. Feel free to interpret me having strong body shame, but I can only speak from the perspective of my own life experience here. That doesn't mean I would judge you or another person for acting that way around people who don't mind it, but this behavior would not be typical in terms of myself or what I've experienced from others.

to be clear, I'm not making any moral statements by calling it "shame". That's just the social term for that discomfort about being seen. I think the amount of particular shame you feel in a particular context, whether high medium or low, is just a personality quirk, not a reflection of morality or trauma or normality or whatever. I had a kidney problem a couple years ago that required seeing a urologist on multiple appointments and then finally surgery. The first time I had to be exposed in front of the doctor and nurse I was a little uncomfortable. By the time they wheeled my half-naked ass feet-first into an operating room with a dozen observing medical students in it I just completely didn't care anymore lol. I'm sure plenty of other people going through that would not get used to it, there's probably people out there who think that OR scene I just described is literally nightmare fuel. There's also people out there who can't empathize with why I was uncomfortable with the first doctor.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 10:26PM

I do think it's reasonable for "don't show your genitals to a non-lover" to be considered common sense. Like yeah there are exceptions for doctors and such, but Makino blowing up is not crazy, even if how she expressed it was Bad.

Essentially what I think about that situation. And the issue is not only that. Imagine entering your apartment, when your partner is supposed to be alone, but they are not, they are with a friend you were wary about, while showing their genitals to that friend... Most people would not react rationally in that situation.

to be clear, I'm not making any moral statements by calling it "shame". That's just the social term for that discomfort about being seen. I think the amount of particular shame you feel in a particular context, whether high medium or low, is just a personality quirk, not a reflection of morality or trauma or normality or whatever. I had a kidney problem a couple years ago that required seeing a urologist on multiple appointments and then finally surgery. The first time I had to be exposed in front of the doctor and nurse I was a little uncomfortable. By the time they wheeled my half-naked ass feet-first into an operating room with a dozen observing medical students in it I just completely didn't care anymore lol. I'm sure plenty of other people going through that would not get used to it, there's probably people out there who think that OR scene I just described is literally nightmare fuel. There's also people out there who can't empathize with why I was uncomfortable with the first doctor.

I appreciate the lack of moral statements.

In this case, Mashiro not only did show it, but had zero hesitation and did not bother to check with the friend/colleague if it was okay for her to do it. At that point the friend did seem surprised and not entirely comfortable. Not even checking with the other person because it's already that normal to you is somewhere less than "low" discomfort to me. She did it with the casualness of someone pulling out a picture of their cat on their phone.

Anyway, these are all relative statements, so it's not worth getting hung up on them imo. One person's "a lot" is another persons "a little bit". Either's "a lot" could then be made into a "little bit" if a new comparison shows up. This is simply my own frame of reference.

last edited at Nov 30, 2024 8:46AM

I think it's a good general principle that the actions depicted in comedy manga should not be taken as a guidebook for optimal real-life behavior.