I just started reading this manga but am I the only one trying some of the stretches as I read? XD The stretches here felt nice

I just started reading this manga but am I the only one trying some of the stretches as I read? XD The stretches here felt nice

Half way.. only a few of the first single digit chapter actually....

I suppose it's just my knee jerk reaction that porn* is a lesser form of storytelling, regardless of contents. Not actually true, it's a society thing, I think, telling me that porn can't be good. That was the idea with original statement, anyway.

*And therefore being associated with porn makes one a lesser artist.

It depends what your definition of porn is. If it's anything depicting human nudity that is meant to arouse a sexual, or even sensual reaction, then porn is not necessarily a bad thing, or even bad art. Shoot, if that's the definition, then half the stuff Michelangelo did would be considered porn. But I see it as more what we come to know it as growing up today...as the objectification and sexualization of people for one's own sexual pleasure. If that's the definition then yes, porn is a lesser form of storytelling. Shoot it'd be a compliment to even call it a story of any kind.

And by that regard, vanilla is not necessarily porn (although it certainly can be, it just usually isn't). I don't know what Shou's loli stuff is, but I'd be surprised if none if it is vanilla. I mean he probably has cranked out a lolicon porn doujin or two, or few, because that stuff sells well unfortunately.

I dunno it just sounds so bitter going by the first definition. Because then something like this is in the same category as this.

Well I prefer broader uses of words, which is why I don't like that I associate porn with lesser storytelling.

Maaaaan. Have to feel strongly that "Oh no" has a double meaning. The first might be obvious, the other is revealed by a hint of pink in the previous panel....

Hmm. I saw the last couple pages as more of a sign of the fact Ran brought light into Keiko's world...didn't notice that the first time 'round.

Maaaaan. Have to feel strongly that "Oh no" has a double meaning. The first might be obvious, the other is revealed by a hint of pink in the previous panel....

Hmm. I saw the last couple pages as more of a sign of the fact Ran brought light into Keiko's world...didn't notice that the first time 'round.

Please stop teasing, I have no idea what connection you guys are making here haha

Maaaaan. Have to feel strongly that "Oh no" has a double meaning. The first might be obvious, the other is revealed by a hint of pink in the previous panel....

Hmm. I saw the last couple pages as more of a sign of the fact Ran brought light into Keiko's world...didn't notice that the first time 'round.

Please stop teasing, I have no idea what connection you guys are making here haha

Basically anything that could hint to Keikos despair is treated like dynamite, sooooo... concealing her eyes in complete shrouded black with Ran going ''Oh no!'' is maybe not the best choice if you are going for something more on a positive
note

And by that regard, vanilla is not necessarily porn (although it certainly can be, it just usually isn't). I don't know what Shou's loli stuff is, but I'd be surprised if none if it is vanilla. I mean he probably has cranked out a lolicon porn doujin or two, or few, because that stuff sells well unfortunately.

A few? Try four entire tanks. His yuri is the exception, rather than the rule. But he clearly enjoys drawing it as well, or he wouldn't put so much care into it. tracing aside I think it's a little disingenuous to say that he's being forced into drawing loli. The only thing that freaks me out is how precocious the kids in it always are. It's particularly creepy.

But he clearly enjoys drawing it as well, or he wouldn't put so much care into it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong about Shou, because it's possible he does enjoy drawing loli. However, I do feel your logic's off.

Someone putting care and effort into something doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy it. Perhaps they're proud of their work and anything less than their very best in any artistic endeavor contradicts their self-integrity. Or perhaps they do it because they find a strong causal relationship between effort and reward. High quality work is a basic fundamental unique selling proposition.

These are artists we're talking about here.

Also, it's easy to apply this logic to something rudimentary and see its flaws: I do dishes carefully. Do I enjoy it? No, but there are obvious benefits in doing them carefully.

I understand there's cognitive dissonance at play here: people see Shou as a creep and that means he can't possibly do work people like us would enjoy. He's doing work we enjoy. There seems to be that paradox.

It shouldn't be that hard to resolve.

last edited at Mar 26, 2015 10:40PM

Are these the colored extras ppl were talking about a few pages ago? If so, cool to have em here.

But he clearly enjoys drawing it as well, or he wouldn't put so much care into it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong about Shou, because it's possible he does enjoy drawing loli. However, I do feel your logic's off.

Someone putting care and effort into something doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy it. Perhaps they're proud of their work and anything less than their very best in any artistic endeavor contradicts their self-integrity. Or perhaps they do it because they find a strong causal relationship between effort and reward. High quality work is a basic fundamental unique selling proposition.

These are artists we're talking about here.

Also, it's easy to apply this logic to something rudimentary and see its flaws: I do dishes carefully. Do I enjoy it? No, but there are obvious benefits in doing them carefully.

I understand there's cognitive dissonance at play here: people see Shou as a creep and that means he can't possibly do work people like us would enjoy. He's doing work we enjoy. There seems to be that paradox.

It shouldn't be that hard to resolve.

I feel like if he didn't enjoy it to some degree he wouldn't have drawn 4 books of it to the exclusion of all else. Bar Prism and now Stretch.

I dunno it just sounds so bitter going by the first definition. Because then something like this is in the same category as this.

On the talk about porn and how ppl judge it as bad or lesser stories... Just to add a bit more to the examples.

Ppl like to call out porn on things that are of the... "raunchy nature" or "just sex" like this one by Kasumi, which is basically that, just sex,

Compare to this one by Cloud Palette. Or this other one by Ichinose.

Only difference is how it's presented, the tone and use of art (by art I mean giving bodies a glossy oily look with shading as well as bringing out more details, etc.) are vastly different, not the story nor writing... As you can see, none of my examples actually give you much of a story, just a setting.You can easily swap the "stories" of these and make it what ppl would call "this is just porn" what they would've called otherwise "this is beautiful". It's all in that: tone and use of art...

Well, that got a bit off-topic... heh

last edited at Mar 26, 2015 10:58PM

I understand there's cognitive dissonance at play here: people see Shou as a creep and that means he can't possibly do work people like us would enjoy. He's doing work we enjoy. There seems to be that paradox.

It shouldn't be that hard to resolve.

It'll be resolved when people accept that they can enjoy things created by someone they personally find undesirable as a friend/associate/whatever.

Speculating whether or not Shou enjoys loli is likely pointless, but these are two pretty strong indicators: 1) He has no moral/ethical problem with it, as evidenced by his continued work, and 2) he has been featured as a guest in multiple lolicon doujinshi, something which earns him no income and boosts his credibility as a person who personally enjoys it.

In truth, many western artists draw and release ton of kink/fetish work, you just don't see or hear about them because it's looked down on in the west. The difficulty understanding really comes from cultural influences, I think. And I am certainly no exception in feeling ambivalent about enjoying certain artists creation's.

last edited at Mar 26, 2015 11:12PM

Also you misquoted me in the first place anyway. I meant he clearly must enjoy drawing yuri as well. I guess the phrasing was a little inexact. Hence the bit about the tracing, since it was Prism that got cancelled because of that scandal.

last edited at Mar 26, 2015 11:13PM

So because he enjoys loli everyone is getting on his shit now?

You realize he doesn't just draw loli porn right? you can like loli and other types of anime women too but one thing you should remember a loli =/= a real life child, the proportions for loli's tend to be totally wrong because the point of drawing a loli is to draw something small and cute, most of the time it isn't realistic at all because it isn't meant to be, the appeal of loli porn is seeing something small and cute in a perverted situation, its kind of a variation of the corruption fetish.
Liking loli porn in no way makes you a pedo, it no more makes you a creep than getting off to catgirls or tentacle porn does, it is FANTASY and you are acting as if liking loli porn is an exclusivity thing, news flash: you can like other types of porn too.

Im getting the feeling this topic is only being brought up in the first place because he is a man, stop that shit it gives this site a bad name.

It's human nature to be a lolicon guys. It has already been proven.

So if I understood it right, there is people here that think if a man draw lolicon he can't have the capacity to draw things like Stretch? That's really stupid...

I can't help but find funny when people discuss about lolicon, like Rosenakahara said most of them don't even have realist proportions, they're not real child, but someone always make a big deal of it, lf it was something "worse" like guro i would understand, but lolicon? Somethings I feel that they just don't want to admit they also like lolis.

This discussion would make more sense if Shou drew toddlercon, different of lolicon, they tend to have proportion of real toddlers except for the faces, but it's not like I know that because I have a directory full of toddlercon.

It's human nature to be a lolicon guys. It has already been proven.

Indeed, everyone should embrace lolis, but only their own lolis, it would cause problems to embrace the loli of other person, and a true lolicon would never touch a real little girl, because unfortunately they don't know how to keep secrets, not that I would try to touch one, nope, not at aaaaaaaaaall.....

^ well that was more than slightly creepy, changed my avatar to ari (OC by born-to-die) because i want to see how many people get on my shit for this.

^ well that was more than slightly creepy, changed my avatar to ari (OC by born-to-die) because i want to see how many people get on my shit for this.

Hey I'm not creepy, I just your typical nice guy that offer candy to your children and ask if they don't want to sit on my lap, perfectly normal.

I want a link to that avatar.

last edited at Mar 27, 2015 10:42AM

Well, I mean, obviously people shouldn't judge Shou for drawing lolis, they should judge him for tracing. Yeah, my jokes date back to 2012, whatever. They also shouldn't judge people just because they like lolicon, probably. Even though most of the lolicons I saw on the net make that very difficult. But in the end, saying things like "Everybody is a lolicon" or acting like it's weird to be oppossed to what is basically child porn, even if it's in a drawn story, is just as wrong. Don't push your own morals onto others, you know?

I want a link to that avatar.

Beware my google skills

last edited at Mar 27, 2015 10:49AM

I hope you're not saying Shou's lolicon girls aren't supposed to be real child. I f you are then you're burying your head in the sand (first time trying this expression =D).

Edit : I'm not saying anyone is wrong to read them, just that it is a fact in Shou's manga that the girls are generally elementary schooler (or middle school maximum)

last edited at Mar 27, 2015 11:13AM

Well, I mean, obviously people shouldn't judge Shou for drawing lolis, they should judge him for tracing. Yeah, my jokes date back to 2012, whatever. They also shouldn't judge people just because they like lolicon, probably. Even though most of the lolicons I saw on the net make that very difficult.

Tracing jokes never get old, and judging people because what they like is stupid, but it's true that most lolicons give a bad name to the rest of lolicons, most of us just like to appreciate the beauty of little girls, give them candy, make them sit on our laps, make poses and take some pictures (specially if they're using small or little cloth), steal one of their panties, things perfectly normal and acceptable, there is a line a real lolicon will never cross, that line is the little girl panties, because they always tell someone about it eventually...

But in the end, saying things like "Everybody is a lolicon" or acting like it's weird to be oppossed to what is basically child porn, even if it's in a drawn story, is just as wrong. Don't push your own morals onto others, you know?

I hate when people push their moral on others, it's not like their moral or opinions is part of a religion, because we all know that it's religious people that like to push their moral on others, and although I agree that from a certain perspective it is basically child porn, we should never forget that in the end it's not the same thing, as it's only lines on paper, not real children.

I want a link to that avatar.

Beware my google skills

Amazing skills, I didn't know about born-to-die, going to have a busy day looking at his drawings...

I hope you're not saying Shou's lolicon girls aren't supposed to be real child. I f you are then you're burying your head in the sand (first time trying this expression =D).

So you're saying that Shou not only do tracing, but make lolicon based on real child? and nope they're not real, deal with it.

last edited at Mar 27, 2015 11:12AM

I hope you're not saying Shou's lolicon girls aren't supposed to be real child. I f you are then you're burying your head in the sand (first time trying this expression =D).

So you're saying that Shou not only do tracing, but make lolicon based on real child? and nope they're not real, deal with it.

I'm not saying they are based on reals kids that he saw on the street (x)) I'm saying they ARE childs. They are not some fantastical creature who look younger that they are. The aim of these manga is for them to be young. It is pedo porn.

Sorry if If I didn't make myself clear

last edited at Mar 27, 2015 11:17AM

I hate when people push their moral on others, it's not like their moral or opinions is part of a religion, because we all know that it's religious people that like to push their moral on others, and although I agree that from a certain perspective it is basically child porn, we should never forget that in the end it's not the same thing, as it's only lines on paper, not real children.

Well, if it was real child porn with real children, I wouldn't attempt to defend you guys. It still sexualizes little children, though, and obviously people are going to be uncomfortable with that.

last edited at Mar 27, 2015 11:19AM

I hope you're not saying Shou's lolicon girls aren't supposed to be real child. I f you are then you're burying your head in the sand (first time trying this expression =D).

So you're saying that Shou not only do tracing, but make lolicon based on real child? and nope they're not real, deal with it.

I'm not saying they are based on I'm saying they are. They are not some fantastical creature who look younger that they are. The aim of these manga is for them to be young. It is pedo porn.

Sorry if If I didn't make myself clear

Well that is your opinion, no matter how much I look at them, they will always be made of paper and ink, not of flesh and bones, so not real child or pedo porn.

You guys hopefully know that the word lolicon just exists to soften the blow that the word pedophilia holds but that discussion would just highlight more deeprooted problems and go absolutly nowwhere