Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

"What Does the Fox Say," was a great series in my opinion and I don't remember any glaring issues with its structure. I disagree with how you're characterizing both series (though there's a lot more to be said about this one). I guess we have differing opinions on what makes a story artistically successful, anyway. So maybe we'll never agree on these issues.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot more from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience and why there are so many who don't find issue with a character like Shiho (that goes beyond her being an "antagonistic breakout character") or it's structure. I think we had a similar debate earlier in this series? Maybe that discussion was with someone else? People tend to hand wave these things away and in my experience that creates more issues. In my opinion, there is a good amount of skill expressed by how this story is told for it's specific audience. But I do agree that you can learn a lot from breaking down mistakes. I just think that for a series that's working so well, the lessons found in what's considered it's mistakes might not lead to future success in this specific context. But we differ on what success looks like so there's that.

There's definitely a lot of literary decisions this story makes that wouldn't work in another context though, if that's what you mean by artistic missteps.

Also by student of storytelling what do you mean? Do you have some kind of literary background? Or are you talking as a reader?

I also find it funny that this story sparks so many of these types of discussions. They're interesting. Is there another series here that has had a similar kind of effect? Maybe My Girlfriend isn't here?

last edited at May 28, 2023 12:58PM

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

"What Does the Fox Say," was a great series in my opinion and I don't remember any glaring issues with its structure.

Well, there’s the answer right there, then. The Dynasty forum for that series is replete with very full and specific arguments about how that one went wrong.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience

Thanks for your suggestion, but the notion that I (along with the many others who think this series has gone off the rails) am “reading to find faults” is as puerile as it is glib. Like many other readers I know, I enjoy analyzing stories as works of narrative art, and have no interest in being a social scientist analyzing various audience responses. And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

In my opinion, there is a good amount of skill expressed by how this story is told for it's specific audience.

“People like it, therefore it’s good” is a kind of critical judgement, I suppose.

Also by student of storytelling what do you mean? Do you have some kind of literary background? Or are you talking as a reader?

“A reader with some kind of literary background” will do.

Thanks for your suggestion, but the notion that I (along with the many others who think this series has gone off the rails) am “reading to find faults” is as puerile as it is glib. Like many other readers I know, I enjoy analyzing stories as works of narrative art, and have no interest in being a social scientist analyzing various audience responses. And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

You were explaining why you continue to read the series and what you were getting from it. This is what I responded to:

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong.

Maybe I misunderstood something? Also if you're discussing writing (which is about communication) you're tied to the other party (or audience) in some form or fashion whether you agree to it or not. But maybe that is where we are at an impass?

“People like it, therefore it’s good” is a kind of critical judgement, I suppose.

That's funny but that's not really what I said.

And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

An author can't satisfy everyone. You're not attempting to reach 100% satisfaction as a writer (you'd pull your hair out and create nothing). You're trying to target a specific idea or group and get a majority of them to feel seen, moved by and connected to your work. It's not defining you out of existence, it's accepting the reality that there is a majority interpretation in a game where no one should be claiming absolute authority over critical judgement. What works in writing is so heavily based on the context it's written in.

The author can only do so much and it would be odd for them to bend their story that is already working for the majority, to satisfy the minority. I've been in the minority position my entire life. My opinions still matter but I respect and understand where I'm positioned. If I think a story has missteps but 90% of the readerbase disagrees, I accept that and seek to understand why that might be and what that author is doing within that context from a literary perspective. All this to say that from my point of view, I am not ignoring other opinions or pretending they do not exist. I treat myself the same way.

In this threads I seem to be in the minority. It's also not just "people like it, therefore good."

“A reader with some kind of literary background” will do.

Fair I don't like giving out info like that either. Shouldn't have asked that. Sorry about that.

Anyway this thread has gone on for a bit and is getting off topic, so I'll drop it after you respond and have the final word.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:30PM

And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one.

Wouldn't it have been a much safer strategy to continue with the day-to-day lives of Himari and Yori, as their relationship develops (similar to what the author I Can't Defy the Lonely Girl did)? Let's not pretend that the author took the easy path with the series, because I would say that it's rather the opposite.

The fact that those two are on the cover of Volumes 6 and 7 instead of Shiho clearly shows what the main selling point is.

And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one.

Wouldn't it have been a much safer strategy to continue with the day-to-day lives of Himari and Yori, as their relationship develops (similar to what the author I Can't Defy the Lonely Girl did)? Let's not pretend that the author took the easy path with the series, because I would say that it's rather the opposite.

Hmm maybe? It's generally more challenging to write a dramatic arc properly than fluffy romance. That would probably be safer around here but I don't know that the general audience would respond that well? Eventually that might have gotten old. A lot of Korean works are encroaching on the space partly I believe because they're willing to deal with dramatic and unconventional dynamics better. As for this series, the main couple did not have a lot developed in order to extend the series with just them, in my opinion. They got together too quick, were too perfect and had little narrative goals beyond their romance. Having said that, I don't have enough info and have never written for that kind of audience, so take what I say with a large grain of salt. For fans of the main couple, it might actually be a blessing that Shiho and Aki were used for the necessary dramatic arcs rather than sullying the main-main relationship.

Just because it's interesting: I'd imagine that volume 8 would have Shiho and Aki. If that's the case it would be 5-3 cover appearances.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:42PM

An author can't satisfy everyone. You're not attempting to reach 100% satisfaction as a writer (you'd pull your hair out and create nothing). You're trying to target a specific idea or group and get a majority of them to feel seen, moved by and connected to your work.

Look, if you think a story that spends its first 15 chapters developing a romance between one pair of characters before the “actual” protagonist whose story was “meant” to be told appears and pushes those first characters to the sidelines is well-structured, we clearly don’t share enough critical premises to have a productive conversation.

Plenty of previous authors have likewise found that it increases the size of their reading audience to introduce vivid characters that the audience loves, or loves to hate, or preferably both. “Increasing the size of one’s audience” is certainly part of a serial author’s job, from a practical point of view perhaps the primary part. Many others besides me have argued that this author’s “Shiho strategy,” while pleasing those who find the character “relatable” or “fascinating” or whatever, has come at a significant cost in overall focus and coherence, and we need no reminders that we are free to abandon reading the series should we so desire.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot more from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience

The art is very very good, I honestly think this is like 60% of the reason behind this series continued success at this point (the other 40% being the original story of the actual main characters). Certainly it is the case for me, I would probably drop it a long time ago if the art was average. I'm obviously in the camp "Shiho is shit and nothing about her is well written" but that discussion is boring that this point :P I just want literally anything else than battle of the bands.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:47PM

Look, if you think a story that spends its first 15 chapters developing a romance between one pair of characters before the “actual” protagonist whose story was “meant” to be told appears and pushes those first characters to the sidelines is well-structured, we clearly don’t share enough critical premises to have a productive conversation.

I would change a few things about it's opening for sure. I think they could have served the same purposes while prepping some readers better for the intended flow of the series. Never said it was perfect. But once Shiho did enter at around chapter (14-18?) it's been fine for what it's trying to do.

Many others besides me have argued that this author’s “Shiho strategy,” while pleasing those who find the character “relatable” or “fascinating” or whatever, has come at a significant cost in overall focus and coherence, and we need no reminders that we are free to abandon reading the series should we so desire.

You don't have to abandon it. The discussions are interesting. Just genuinely curious about the reasons people who dislike the story are staying on. I've heard from some who say they stay because this is an arc that will pass and so I don't know how many still think that. The arc might pass but I'd be surprised if Shiho goes anywhere. Although who knows.

The art is very very good, I honestly think this is like 60% of the reason behind this series continued success at this point (the other 40% being the original story of the actual main characters). Certainly it is the case for me, I would probably drop it a long time ago if the art was average. I'm obviously in the camp "Shiho is shit and nothing about her is well written" but that discussion is boring that this point :P I just want literally anything else than battle of the bands.

I agree, the art is nice although I don't personally think it's anything that I'd stay for alone. I do agree that this ending to the battle should come soon (preferably next chapter). This recent chapter was too much setup for a monthly. As for the original couple, that holding power still stands strong after all this time? Himari is great but I feel Yori has barely had anything to do for a very long time. By now I don't think it's reasonable to assume the audience doesn't largely like Shiho and Aki's story so I wouldn't agree to the exact percentages you mentioned. I get that you don't like them as much though.

last edited at May 28, 2023 2:01PM

Just because it's interesting: I'd imagine that volume 8 would have Shiho and Aki. If that's the case it would be 5-3 cover appearances.

Shiho has only appeared once on a cover (Volume 5), which is crazy given her predominance from Volume 4 onwards. Also, the vibes you get from the covers of Volumes 6 and 7 (Himari and Yori being lovey-dovey) are completely different from what's actually going on in the chapters within them. They are marketing the series as a "fluffy romance" as much as they can.

But once Shiho did enter at around chapter (14-18?) it's been fine for what it's trying to do.

Chapter 15 was the first "proper" appearance, but her first introduction was in Volume 2 actually, which speaks for itself regarding the author's intention for her.

last edited at May 28, 2023 2:29PM

Chapter 15 was the first "proper" appearance, but her first introduction was in Volume 2 actually, which speaks for itself regarding the author's intention for her.

As far as intent goes Shiho was prob always meant to be a cornerstone of the story, given how her actions are the catalyst for literally everything the manga is about. If she hadn't left the band, Yori wouldn't've come in as an extra to help out for the performance, which means Himari wouldn't've seen her perform, they wouldn't've interacted or fallen in love, etc.

last edited at May 28, 2023 3:13PM

Chapter 15 was the first "proper" appearance, but her first introduction was in Volume 2 actually, which speaks for itself regarding the author's intention for her.

As far as intent goes Shiho was prob always meant to be a cornerstone of the story, given how her actions are the catalyst for literally everything the manga is about. If she hadn't left the band, Yori wouldn't've come in as an extra to help out for the performance, which means Himari wouldn't've seen her perform, they wouldn't've interacted or fallen in love, etc.

That’s completely obvious—once the “Hima discovers what her love is” part was over, tension between the bands was going to emerge as the next conflict, no question, and the initially mysterious Shiho is part of that.

But “cornerstone” is a bit of an evasive term in regard to Shiho’s role in the story—there is a difference between an antagonist and a substitute protagonist, and it was by no means inevitable that Shiho and her emotional state must take over the story to the extent that they have nor that the original protagonists would be relegated to the role of clueless bystander (Yori) or plot device go-between (Hima).

Dynasty reader feihong has done a wonderful job of explicating (in two longish posts in this forum) how the treatment of Shiho has affected the structure of the story. Shiho has not been the cause of a conflict that serves to develop the story of the original protagonists; her own conflicts have become the story, leading some readers to care about her. But by no means all.

Shiho has not been the cause of a conflict that serves to develop the story of the original protagonists.

Yeah, that's not true at all in my opinon. I can write about it in more detail later, but at least I wanted to express my view on the matter now.

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be, almost like checking a textbook to make sure it follows a certain pattern, instead of seeing it as the way an author has to convey something.

But I do agree that the band competition has taken too long to resolve. You can't have an Arc longer than the rest of the series combined in a (relatively) short manga like this one.

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be,

LOL. I guess that’s one way of phrasing it.

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be,

LOL. I guess that’s one way of phrasing it.

I thought you didn't like condescending remarks? Maybe you should be looking somewhere else to satisfy your literary tastes. A manga targeted at teenagers probably won't do.

I don't understand people shitting on Shiho she is such an engaging character and I really her a lot she's more interensting at this poing than the main duo to me at least she is so well developed and I wanna see more of her peak supporting character in my book

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be,

LOL. I guess that’s one way of phrasing it.

I thought you didn't like condescending remarks? Maybe you should be looking somewhere else to satisfy your literary tastes. A manga targeted at teenagers probably won't do.

And you believe that calling concepts like the narrative role of protagonist and antagonist “rigid thinking” isn’t condescending?

This exchange started by me rejecting unsolicited advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and it is ending in exactly the same place.

[Edited to correct mistaken attribution.]

last edited at May 28, 2023 10:00PM

The plot for the next couple of volumes: Shiho rejects Aki because she doesn't want her "love" out of pity, then Aki tries to convince her that's not the case, while genuinely falling in love more and more with Shiho in the process.
How does it sound? I'm half-kidding, but honestly I would find out of character for Shiho to accept whatever Aki is going to say to her in the next chapter, although everything seems to indicate that it will be the case.

And you believe that calling concepts like the narrative role of protagonist and antagonist “rigid thinking” isn’t condescending?

It definitely wasn't my intention to sound condescending. And I never mentioned those two roles...

We started this exchange by me categorically rejecting your oh-so-solicitous advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and we are ending it in exactly the same place.

I'm not in this one but I think you've mixed me and Kabu up. You were having that discussion with me. Kabu shouldn't get that ire. And "oh so solicitous?" I guess maybe? If that's how you want to take it. I thought I explained my intent but ok.

The plot for the next couple of volumes: Shiho rejects Aki because she doesn't want her "love" out of pity, then Aki tries to convince her that's not the case, while genuinely falling in love more and more with Shiho in the process. How does it sound? I'm half-kidding, but honestly I would find out of character for Shiho to accept whatever Aki is going to say to her in the next chapter, although everything seems to indicate that it will be the case.

It wouldn't surprise me if that happened. But like you said, I'd rather we move on from these events by now. I'm genuinely more interested in the resolution and what comes next. There's basically a clean slate afterwards. I also feel like Shiho is a glass cannon. She could just as easily breakdown and accept what Aki says. A lot of how she acts is empty bravado. She's a chihuahua and everyone knows it.

last edited at May 28, 2023 8:50PM

We started this exchange by me categorically rejecting your oh-so-solicitous advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and we are ending it in exactly the same place.

I'm not in this one but I think you've mixed me and Kabu up. You were having that discussion with me. Kabu shouldn't get that ire. And "oh so solicitous?" I guess maybe? If that's how you want to take it. I thought I explained my intent but ok.

Noted—will edit.

I'm genuinely more interested in the resolution and what comes next.

Me too. I'm a bit anxious to get a confirmation whether the manga is close to its ending or not.

She could just as easily breakdown and accept what Aki says. A lot of how she acts is empty bravado. She's a chihuahua and everyone knows it.

Yeah, she might accept whatever is that Aki says on the spur of the moment (and with the pressure of all the people watching), but I don't think she'll be comfortable with it afterwards.

One way or another, Shiho should have a relevant role in the next Arc. And I would like more chapters from Aki's perspective.

One way or another, Shiho should have a relevant role in the next Arc. And I would like more chapters from Aki's perspective.

"How Do We Relationship," is a favorite of mine. I'd love it if this series tried to navigate both relationships in a similar-ish fashion. Not in the same way Tamifull's series does (the audiences are different and that kind of mature writing might not work for a series like this) but Shiho and Aki for example could have interesting issues to slowly work around and birth lessons from. I'm still not sure what Yori and Hima would do though. I feel like, for them, the author would have to create a sudden new issue in order to shake them up, or just continue doing fluff. Their core desires and character make-ups don't really lend themselves to natural dramatic potential. But we'll see. They could just be the standard necessary romance compared to the other main couple where the dramatic work is executed. That's already been the strategy up to this point anyway so she could just continue that.

Me too. I'm a bit anxious to get a confirmation whether the manga is close to its ending or not.

Yeah I've long suspected that it might end after this. It's reached a hard conclusion to all storylines and character desires. So it would need to reset, like seasons in a webtoon. It's already followed some webtoon/Korean/Chinese type "couple A gets together now focus on couple B" stuff so maybe it'll continue that and do a reset.

last edited at May 29, 2023 7:44AM

"How Do We Relationship," is a favorite of mine.

I have been interested in reading this one for a long time.

Yeah I've long suspected that it might end after this.

Perhaps we would already know it if that was the case? I think the magazine would have announced that the series, and not the "school festival" as they stated, was entering its climax on the color page of the previous chapter. But who knows, it's already quite a long manga by this genre's standards.

By the way, Chapter 42 is the second one of Volume 9, so this Arc is expected to finish in two more chapters. At the very least we should be getting one more volume after that. And yeah, I guess it wouldn't be crazy for the series to tie up all the loose ends in six more chapters or so.

last edited at May 29, 2023 11:42PM

"How Do We Relationship," is a favorite of mine.

I have been interested in reading this one for a long time.

Yeah HDWR is great, has lovely writing and well written character dynamics. I think it's the best, honestly. Just remember that it really means what it's english title implies. Some criticized the name but it sets up the reader properly for what to expect from the series' focus. It's targeting a whole different audience compared to a lot of the stuff here (so I can't imagine what the response to it, here is, considering the general tastes I've seen). It's honest about actual relationship issues (both good and bad). It's always fun and developed though; but, that's a heads up. Give it a try when you get the chance.

If I had to pick 3 more to recommended based on this:
"Even Though We're Adults" (which is ending), "Kill me Now," (more abstract) and "Hana ni Arashi" (also ending). + "Miss Angel and Miss Devil," just because that's lovely and literally no one seems to mention it. Maybe also "Adachi and Shimumara," but the LNs.

Perhaps we would already know it if that was the case? I think the magazine would have announced that the series, and not the "school festival" as they stated, was entering its climax on the color page of the previous chapter. But who knows, it's already quite a long manga by this genre's standards.

Yeah I agree. I feel this way mainly because from a narrative standpoint there's not much else to pull from. Having said that she could just introduce a new issue after this one is over. Like you said it's gone on long enough that when it reaches points of natural rest, I start wondering whether it might be setting up an end.

last edited at May 30, 2023 7:21AM

Shiho haters keep crying

i think that this (and the next chapter or 2) will probably end this whole arc. and hopefully we’lll be able to see more of the other characters again. don’t get me wrong, i LOVE shiho, but she has admittedly taken up about 3 years of this manga, and we do need a break. i’m hoping we’ll be able to see her and aki developing more in the background. even if they don’t end up together, i’m hoping for them to at least cut ties and become friendly again.