yori lives in shiho s head so rent free to the point that she even speaks Ill of her in front of himari, that's just how much she despises yori

It's literally the exact opposite. For example, when Yori and Himari were about to kiss for the first time in the karaoke, she decided not to out of her jealousy for Shiho. When they were hanging out together during the summer festival, Shiho's sole presence ruined Yori's mood for the rest of the date (she even ended up crying in front of Himari). There's even a chapter where Yori said "I definitely don't want to lose to Izumi-san", so she does care about winning the competition.

You won't find Shiho thinking or talking about her unless someone asked her opinion. To be fair, it's not Yori's fault. Shiho lives rent free in everyone's head, even the readers'.

last edited at May 27, 2023 2:34PM

It's literally the exact opposite. For example, when Yori and Himari were about to kiss for the first time in the karaoke, she decided not to out of her jealousy for Shiho. When they were hanging out together during the summer festival, Shiho's sole presence ruined Yori's mood for the rest of the date (she even ended up crying in front of Himari). There's even a chapter where Yori said "I definitely don't want to lose to Izumi-san", so she does care about winning the competition.

It's all about hima at that point that has little to nothing to do with the battle of the bands and shiho s actions were specifically planned to bother yori, is not that the mere presence of shiho makes yori unease, she's specifically trying to mud the water in their relationship, at some point she's pating himari, looks at yori and gives her a smug look. The idea that shiho holds no ill intention to yori is simply not true cuz the whole deal of hima being lorelei s manager was specifically design to bother yori

last edited at May 27, 2023 3:12PM

Shiho lives rent free in everyone's head, even the readers'.

FFS, I’d hardly say that having an annoying character shoved in reader’s faces for chapter after chapter counts as that character “living rent-free in [our] heads.”

I’d love to be given the opportunity to forget that Shiho ever existed.

I’d love to be given the opportunity to forget that Shiho ever existed.

Don't mean to be rude but like with Shiho's friends do the pros of the series outweigh its cons for you? If not, the opportunity is there. I've certainly taken that opportunity on more than one occasion. She's kind of cemented as a core main character and as I mentioned before, her story with Aki is important to the author (from what she's said). I honestly feel more and more that this is the story she meant to get to from the start. It's certainly taken up the highest percentage of the running time this far. So this is the story, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on where you stand I guess.

Well no she hasn't done anything particularly bad or morally reprehensible but she's just a pain in the ass and a hard to deal person, you have to be a special kind of saint to tolerate her shit (wich shiho I lucky cuz every person aside from her Is that kind of person).

I don't think you need to be a saint. She's chill in most interactions and the series obviously picks specific moments to cover. During normal days she's been a good friend to them. She has thorny spots that her friends know are touchy subjects but that's normal in a friendship (or maybe it used to be normal?). Sometimes you know that a friend isn't their best under certain conditions. That's not being difficult necessarily, or unique to Shiho, that's just people. It's an exaggeration to say you'd need to be a saint, you just can't be too sensitive. But anyway that's all subjective, so we'll just talk around each other. Bottom line is it's not unreal for her friends to view her differently than you might. They just like her more than not and likely understand/sympathize with where her rougher edges are coming from.

The levels of copium on this forum have been raising exponentially with every new chapter, people have been moving the goalpost of what's acceptable or good writing to accommodate shiho and the story. At this point I'm convinced that both the story and shiho can get away with almost anything because people will justify almost anything or just headcanon a solution.

I'd say it's goes the opposite. The responses to Shiho seem to get worse and more exaggerated the more people realize that others look at her character differently. The idea seems to some, unfathomable and seems to bring out some odder responses sometimes. But we'll probably agree to disagree on that. This'll be a discussion for the rest of the series probably. It'll be interesting to see what happens if the anime can get up to these points in the story.

last edited at May 28, 2023 7:37AM

I’d love to be given the opportunity to forget that Shiho ever existed.

Don't mean to be rude but like with Shiho's friends do the pros of the series outweigh its cons for you? If not, the opportunity is there. I've certainly taken that opportunity on more than one occasion. She's kind of cemented as a core main character and as I mentioned before, her story with Aki is important to the author (from what she's said). I honestly feel more and more that this is the story she meant to get to from the start. It's certainly taken up the highest percentage of the running time this far. So this is the story, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on where you stand I guess.

All that is completely obvious—do you think you are imparting some sort of new information here? If this is just a roundabout way of articulating the tired old cliché of “If you dislike the story so much, why do you keep reading it?”, I have two reasons:

I liked the original story very much, and was interested in the development of the characters who were introduced as the protagonists. If Shiho’s conflict is what this story was “meant to be,” the whole beginning section is a completely inexplicable botch job.

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

As many people have pointed out, the outcome of the whole “battle of the bands,” a plot mechanic that has been set up at such tedious length, has been rendered completely irrelevant by the revelation of the “secret” behind Shiho’s shitty attitude, and the excessive length and melodramatic intensity of the Shiho-angst storyline (god forbid anyone call it an “arc” at this point) amounts to the author writing themselves into a blind alley—if this series has become “Shiho’s story,” any instantaneous presto-change-o of Aki’s feelings toward Shiho would be simply ridiculous, while a “let’s start over as friends” gambit would be incredibly weak tea in response to Shiho’s drawn-out angsty posturings.

I realize by now that in regard to this series that it’s impossible to communicate the idea that “this author has made a mistake in their handling of this character” rather than “I dislike this imaginary person that so many readers relate to and find compelling,” but since I don’t primarily read in order to relate to imaginary people, I guess that’s the way it goes.

EDIT: And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one. If structural soundness gets in the way of a person making a living, so be it. That doesn’t mean the narrative structure is sound, though.

last edited at May 28, 2023 9:58AM

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

"What Does the Fox Say," was a great series in my opinion and I don't remember any glaring issues with its structure. I disagree with how you're characterizing both series (though there's a lot more to be said about this one). I guess we have differing opinions on what makes a story artistically successful, anyway. So maybe we'll never agree on these issues.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot more from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience and why there are so many who don't find issue with a character like Shiho (that goes beyond her being an "antagonistic breakout character") or it's structure. I think we had a similar debate earlier in this series? Maybe that discussion was with someone else? People tend to hand wave these things away and in my experience that creates more issues. In my opinion, there is a good amount of skill expressed by how this story is told for it's specific audience. But I do agree that you can learn a lot from breaking down mistakes. I just think that for a series that's working so well, the lessons found in what's considered it's mistakes might not lead to future success in this specific context. But we differ on what success looks like so there's that.

There's definitely a lot of literary decisions this story makes that wouldn't work in another context though, if that's what you mean by artistic missteps.

Also by student of storytelling what do you mean? Do you have some kind of literary background? Or are you talking as a reader?

I also find it funny that this story sparks so many of these types of discussions. They're interesting. Is there another series here that has had a similar kind of effect? Maybe My Girlfriend isn't here?

last edited at May 28, 2023 12:58PM

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

"What Does the Fox Say," was a great series in my opinion and I don't remember any glaring issues with its structure.

Well, there’s the answer right there, then. The Dynasty forum for that series is replete with very full and specific arguments about how that one went wrong.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience

Thanks for your suggestion, but the notion that I (along with the many others who think this series has gone off the rails) am “reading to find faults” is as puerile as it is glib. Like many other readers I know, I enjoy analyzing stories as works of narrative art, and have no interest in being a social scientist analyzing various audience responses. And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

In my opinion, there is a good amount of skill expressed by how this story is told for it's specific audience.

“People like it, therefore it’s good” is a kind of critical judgement, I suppose.

Also by student of storytelling what do you mean? Do you have some kind of literary background? Or are you talking as a reader?

“A reader with some kind of literary background” will do.

Thanks for your suggestion, but the notion that I (along with the many others who think this series has gone off the rails) am “reading to find faults” is as puerile as it is glib. Like many other readers I know, I enjoy analyzing stories as works of narrative art, and have no interest in being a social scientist analyzing various audience responses. And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

You were explaining why you continue to read the series and what you were getting from it. This is what I responded to:

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong.

Maybe I misunderstood something? Also if you're discussing writing (which is about communication) you're tied to the other party (or audience) in some form or fashion whether you agree to it or not. But maybe that is where we are at an impass?

“People like it, therefore it’s good” is a kind of critical judgement, I suppose.

That's funny but that's not really what I said.

And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

An author can't satisfy everyone. You're not attempting to reach 100% satisfaction as a writer (you'd pull your hair out and create nothing). You're trying to target a specific idea or group and get a majority of them to feel seen, moved by and connected to your work. It's not defining you out of existence, it's accepting the reality that there is a majority interpretation in a game where no one should be claiming absolute authority over critical judgement. What works in writing is so heavily based on the context it's written in.

The author can only do so much and it would be odd for them to bend their story that is already working for the majority, to satisfy the minority. I've been in the minority position my entire life. My opinions still matter but I respect and understand where I'm positioned. If I think a story has missteps but 90% of the readerbase disagrees, I accept that and seek to understand why that might be and what that author is doing within that context from a literary perspective. All this to say that from my point of view, I am not ignoring other opinions or pretending they do not exist. I treat myself the same way.

In this threads I seem to be in the minority. It's also not just "people like it, therefore good."

“A reader with some kind of literary background” will do.

Fair I don't like giving out info like that either. Shouldn't have asked that. Sorry about that.

Anyway this thread has gone on for a bit and is getting off topic, so I'll drop it after you respond and have the final word.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:30PM

And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one.

Wouldn't it have been a much safer strategy to continue with the day-to-day lives of Himari and Yori, as their relationship develops (similar to what the author I Can't Defy the Lonely Girl did)? Let's not pretend that the author took the easy path with the series, because I would say that it's rather the opposite.

The fact that those two are on the cover of Volumes 6 and 7 instead of Shiho clearly shows what the main selling point is.

And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one.

Wouldn't it have been a much safer strategy to continue with the day-to-day lives of Himari and Yori, as their relationship develops (similar to what the author I Can't Defy the Lonely Girl did)? Let's not pretend that the author took the easy path with the series, because I would say that it's rather the opposite.

Hmm maybe? It's generally more challenging to write a dramatic arc properly than fluffy romance. That would probably be safer around here but I don't know that the general audience would respond that well? Eventually that might have gotten old. A lot of Korean works are encroaching on the space partly I believe because they're willing to deal with dramatic and unconventional dynamics better. As for this series, the main couple did not have a lot developed in order to extend the series with just them, in my opinion. They got together too quick, were too perfect and had little narrative goals beyond their romance. Having said that, I don't have enough info and have never written for that kind of audience, so take what I say with a large grain of salt. For fans of the main couple, it might actually be a blessing that Shiho and Aki were used for the necessary dramatic arcs rather than sullying the main-main relationship.

Just because it's interesting: I'd imagine that volume 8 would have Shiho and Aki. If that's the case it would be 5-3 cover appearances.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:42PM

An author can't satisfy everyone. You're not attempting to reach 100% satisfaction as a writer (you'd pull your hair out and create nothing). You're trying to target a specific idea or group and get a majority of them to feel seen, moved by and connected to your work.

Look, if you think a story that spends its first 15 chapters developing a romance between one pair of characters before the “actual” protagonist whose story was “meant” to be told appears and pushes those first characters to the sidelines is well-structured, we clearly don’t share enough critical premises to have a productive conversation.

Plenty of previous authors have likewise found that it increases the size of their reading audience to introduce vivid characters that the audience loves, or loves to hate, or preferably both. “Increasing the size of one’s audience” is certainly part of a serial author’s job, from a practical point of view perhaps the primary part. Many others besides me have argued that this author’s “Shiho strategy,” while pleasing those who find the character “relatable” or “fascinating” or whatever, has come at a significant cost in overall focus and coherence, and we need no reminders that we are free to abandon reading the series should we so desire.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot more from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience

The art is very very good, I honestly think this is like 60% of the reason behind this series continued success at this point (the other 40% being the original story of the actual main characters). Certainly it is the case for me, I would probably drop it a long time ago if the art was average. I'm obviously in the camp "Shiho is shit and nothing about her is well written" but that discussion is boring that this point :P I just want literally anything else than battle of the bands.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:47PM

Look, if you think a story that spends its first 15 chapters developing a romance between one pair of characters before the “actual” protagonist whose story was “meant” to be told appears and pushes those first characters to the sidelines is well-structured, we clearly don’t share enough critical premises to have a productive conversation.

I would change a few things about it's opening for sure. I think they could have served the same purposes while prepping some readers better for the intended flow of the series. Never said it was perfect. But once Shiho did enter at around chapter (14-18?) it's been fine for what it's trying to do.

Many others besides me have argued that this author’s “Shiho strategy,” while pleasing those who find the character “relatable” or “fascinating” or whatever, has come at a significant cost in overall focus and coherence, and we need no reminders that we are free to abandon reading the series should we so desire.

You don't have to abandon it. The discussions are interesting. Just genuinely curious about the reasons people who dislike the story are staying on. I've heard from some who say they stay because this is an arc that will pass and so I don't know how many still think that. The arc might pass but I'd be surprised if Shiho goes anywhere. Although who knows.

The art is very very good, I honestly think this is like 60% of the reason behind this series continued success at this point (the other 40% being the original story of the actual main characters). Certainly it is the case for me, I would probably drop it a long time ago if the art was average. I'm obviously in the camp "Shiho is shit and nothing about her is well written" but that discussion is boring that this point :P I just want literally anything else than battle of the bands.

I agree, the art is nice although I don't personally think it's anything that I'd stay for alone. I do agree that this ending to the battle should come soon (preferably next chapter). This recent chapter was too much setup for a monthly. As for the original couple, that holding power still stands strong after all this time? Himari is great but I feel Yori has barely had anything to do for a very long time. By now I don't think it's reasonable to assume the audience doesn't largely like Shiho and Aki's story so I wouldn't agree to the exact percentages you mentioned. I get that you don't like them as much though.

last edited at May 28, 2023 2:01PM

Just because it's interesting: I'd imagine that volume 8 would have Shiho and Aki. If that's the case it would be 5-3 cover appearances.

Shiho has only appeared once on a cover (Volume 5), which is crazy given her predominance from Volume 4 onwards. Also, the vibes you get from the covers of Volumes 6 and 7 (Himari and Yori being lovey-dovey) are completely different from what's actually going on in the chapters within them. They are marketing the series as a "fluffy romance" as much as they can.

But once Shiho did enter at around chapter (14-18?) it's been fine for what it's trying to do.

Chapter 15 was the first "proper" appearance, but her first introduction was in Volume 2 actually, which speaks for itself regarding the author's intention for her.

last edited at May 28, 2023 2:29PM

Chapter 15 was the first "proper" appearance, but her first introduction was in Volume 2 actually, which speaks for itself regarding the author's intention for her.

As far as intent goes Shiho was prob always meant to be a cornerstone of the story, given how her actions are the catalyst for literally everything the manga is about. If she hadn't left the band, Yori wouldn't've come in as an extra to help out for the performance, which means Himari wouldn't've seen her perform, they wouldn't've interacted or fallen in love, etc.

last edited at May 28, 2023 3:13PM

Chapter 15 was the first "proper" appearance, but her first introduction was in Volume 2 actually, which speaks for itself regarding the author's intention for her.

As far as intent goes Shiho was prob always meant to be a cornerstone of the story, given how her actions are the catalyst for literally everything the manga is about. If she hadn't left the band, Yori wouldn't've come in as an extra to help out for the performance, which means Himari wouldn't've seen her perform, they wouldn't've interacted or fallen in love, etc.

That’s completely obvious—once the “Hima discovers what her love is” part was over, tension between the bands was going to emerge as the next conflict, no question, and the initially mysterious Shiho is part of that.

But “cornerstone” is a bit of an evasive term in regard to Shiho’s role in the story—there is a difference between an antagonist and a substitute protagonist, and it was by no means inevitable that Shiho and her emotional state must take over the story to the extent that they have nor that the original protagonists would be relegated to the role of clueless bystander (Yori) or plot device go-between (Hima).

Dynasty reader feihong has done a wonderful job of explicating (in two longish posts in this forum) how the treatment of Shiho has affected the structure of the story. Shiho has not been the cause of a conflict that serves to develop the story of the original protagonists; her own conflicts have become the story, leading some readers to care about her. But by no means all.

Shiho has not been the cause of a conflict that serves to develop the story of the original protagonists.

Yeah, that's not true at all in my opinon. I can write about it in more detail later, but at least I wanted to express my view on the matter now.

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be, almost like checking a textbook to make sure it follows a certain pattern, instead of seeing it as the way an author has to convey something.

But I do agree that the band competition has taken too long to resolve. You can't have an Arc longer than the rest of the series combined in a (relatively) short manga like this one.

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be,

LOL. I guess that’s one way of phrasing it.

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be,

LOL. I guess that’s one way of phrasing it.

I thought you didn't like condescending remarks? Maybe you should be looking somewhere else to satisfy your literary tastes. A manga targeted at teenagers probably won't do.

I don't understand people shitting on Shiho she is such an engaging character and I really her a lot she's more interensting at this poing than the main duo to me at least she is so well developed and I wanna see more of her peak supporting character in my book

I think some of you have too rigid a conception of what the narrative structure of a story should be,

LOL. I guess that’s one way of phrasing it.

I thought you didn't like condescending remarks? Maybe you should be looking somewhere else to satisfy your literary tastes. A manga targeted at teenagers probably won't do.

And you believe that calling concepts like the narrative role of protagonist and antagonist “rigid thinking” isn’t condescending?

This exchange started by me rejecting unsolicited advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and it is ending in exactly the same place.

[Edited to correct mistaken attribution.]

last edited at May 28, 2023 10:00PM

The plot for the next couple of volumes: Shiho rejects Aki because she doesn't want her "love" out of pity, then Aki tries to convince her that's not the case, while genuinely falling in love more and more with Shiho in the process.
How does it sound? I'm half-kidding, but honestly I would find out of character for Shiho to accept whatever Aki is going to say to her in the next chapter, although everything seems to indicate that it will be the case.

And you believe that calling concepts like the narrative role of protagonist and antagonist “rigid thinking” isn’t condescending?

It definitely wasn't my intention to sound condescending. And I never mentioned those two roles...

We started this exchange by me categorically rejecting your oh-so-solicitous advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and we are ending it in exactly the same place.

I'm not in this one but I think you've mixed me and Kabu up. You were having that discussion with me. Kabu shouldn't get that ire. And "oh so solicitous?" I guess maybe? If that's how you want to take it. I thought I explained my intent but ok.

The plot for the next couple of volumes: Shiho rejects Aki because she doesn't want her "love" out of pity, then Aki tries to convince her that's not the case, while genuinely falling in love more and more with Shiho in the process. How does it sound? I'm half-kidding, but honestly I would find out of character for Shiho to accept whatever Aki is going to say to her in the next chapter, although everything seems to indicate that it will be the case.

It wouldn't surprise me if that happened. But like you said, I'd rather we move on from these events by now. I'm genuinely more interested in the resolution and what comes next. There's basically a clean slate afterwards. I also feel like Shiho is a glass cannon. She could just as easily breakdown and accept what Aki says. A lot of how she acts is empty bravado. She's a chihuahua and everyone knows it.

last edited at May 28, 2023 8:50PM

We started this exchange by me categorically rejecting your oh-so-solicitous advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and we are ending it in exactly the same place.

I'm not in this one but I think you've mixed me and Kabu up. You were having that discussion with me. Kabu shouldn't get that ire. And "oh so solicitous?" I guess maybe? If that's how you want to take it. I thought I explained my intent but ok.

Noted—will edit.

I'm genuinely more interested in the resolution and what comes next.

Me too. I'm a bit anxious to get a confirmation whether the manga is close to its ending or not.

She could just as easily breakdown and accept what Aki says. A lot of how she acts is empty bravado. She's a chihuahua and everyone knows it.

Yeah, she might accept whatever is that Aki says on the spur of the moment (and with the pressure of all the people watching), but I don't think she'll be comfortable with it afterwards.

One way or another, Shiho should have a relevant role in the next Arc. And I would like more chapters from Aki's perspective.