Not like you care and will only read this post someday in the future when you'll decided to check if there's anything of value there, but will more likely just forgot about it

Well.

And then you comment about something I wrote at the end of my post, which means that either you did read it or that you only skimmed it, which in both cases only makes me even less interested in continuing this farce.

No, I actually did stop at that point. It's just hard not to see what's at the very end when you're cutting it out of the reply.

Except I'm not angry and I didn't even insult you once. I was actually being incredibly civil and gave you the benefit of the doubt. Only thing I ever criticized was ideas and opinions you expressed. Things I thought we were discussing, so I'm baffled you took it so personally. About language I used, have you never heard of emphasize or exaggeration? In moments like this I always blame internet, because it's much harder to tell the difference between tone and mood in written speech compare to spoken one, when not using emoticons and such. But seriously. That's enough to offend you? Ignoring the fact that compare to total amount of words used, it's not even 5% of my entire post, you really shouldn't use internet then, if you're that prude.

Ok look, disagree with me all you want, but don't bullshit me. Unless you're going to tell me you don't know the meaning of "infuriate" (your word), don't pretend you weren't angry. You accused me of possibly having an ulterior motive (and we both know what you meant by that) so don't say you "gave me the benefit of the doubt". And I'm well aware of what constitutes emphasis and exaggeration - and the difference between that and someone who is pissed off.

I'm not a prude - trust me. I've had to learn to tone down my language a lot to communicate online, so if you want to get into a nasty back and forth with me, we might both end up getting banned from this site if you're as bad as you claim to be.

But I don't want that, which was why I was trying to calm things down. Maybe that was a mistake. It's not so much that I was offended, but I was, as I said, "taken aback". You were clearly upset (something which I wasn't expecting) and given that, you did a decent job, in many places, of not letting it slip out. It was much better in the part that I read later on - I probably should have read further before responding. But don't tell me it wasn't there, because you explicitly said it.

You said that you debate with alt-right etc. I thought it was their favorite tactic to complain about presentation and that it doesn't matter if what you're saying doesn't make any sense as long as you're saying it in a way that looks better than opposition. I didn't expect "but you didn't say it calmly enough" from you of all people.

Again, I was worried that the conversation would spin out of control and turn into a flame war. That's the biggest thing I've learned to avoid when conversing with the alt-right - or anyone.

And it's beside the point, as I was calm, just used some harder words, because I felt like they expressed my points better., but I'm actually not native, so cursing comes more natural to me in english than my native language, because of level of separation, so I tend to use them more when using english.

Well then here's a tip from a native English speaker. Cursing is common in America. That's because we're often angry with each other. It's less common in England and Canada. That's because they abhor being angry at each other.

The point is, peppering your speech with "fucking" and "shit" isn't for emphasis. Unless you're trying to emphasize that you're irritated, exasperated, and angry. And it certainly doesn't indicate "calm". I'm guessing the "cutthroat aggressive" version of you uses them a lot more frequently.

I was actually in very shitty mood, but despite that I decided to take the high road, even though you'd be perfect place to vent some of my frustration

Which is my point. It was obvious you were in a shitty mood. Which is fine - just be honest about it. I didn't want to have a "shitty mood" discussion.

brooo I don't think honoka has told eli she loves her back before this right? we love to see it

So do I! It was sweet.

also this dude really sitting here saying shes 100% straight based on the fact that his straight-self said so okay bro lmfao

Standpoint epistemology is a weak argument form. Bro.

You know you could just have edit your first post instead of posting 6 time in a row

You know you could just have edit your first post instead of posting 6 time in a row

Is that appropriate etiquette when responding to different people?

yes

I'm very used to writing walls of text that then nobody reads/replies to and honestly at this point I barely bother to post, because it feels like a waste of time, so I forgot to thank you in my previous post for proving to me yet again, that it indeed is just a waste of time. I hope you'll appreciate experiencing for yourself how it feels.

Talking only for the record I'd like to state I've read all of Eromancer's posts as well as yours and everyone else's, and I found the debate very interesting. I only wish civility would be a greater concern for all involved.

I'm very used to writing walls of text that then nobody reads/replies to and honestly at this point I barely bother to post, because it feels like a waste of time, so I forgot to thank you in my previous post for proving to me yet again, that it indeed is just a waste of time. I hope you'll appreciate experiencing for yourself how it feels.

Talking only for the record I'd like to state I've read all of Eromancer's posts as well as yours and everyone else's, and I found the debate very interesting. I only wish civility would be a greater concern for all involved.

Agreed, very interesting conversations going on here, but then it turned to insults and low blows and it became less about the manga and more about being mean.

I am glad that a ten-year-old manga is getting such interesting discussions, though, and that people are still into the series.

I do want to speak to some of the certain points Eromancer is bringing up with a few quotes:

Nowadays, being "queer" is actually seen as kind of cool in American culture, especially among younger people. Despite what manga tells you, that is not generally true in Japan.

But the biggest reason I say it's unrealistic is that only a certain percentage of the population is gay (which is a more restrictive group than "doesn't quite fit into heteronormativity"). That percentage is growing, but it's almost entirely due to more people identifying as bisexual. So anyone who does care about realism (not saying anyone should) shouldn't be triggered by the idea of some characters being bisexual (I'm not directing this at you - someone else here seems to have a problem with it).

In this manga, I can count how many male characters there are on one hand. This happens a lot in yuri manga, where guys don't exist. This obviously isn't realistic. People can make unrealistic things and have an idealistic view of the world.

Also, I want a source for the increase in percentage for more people identifying as bisexual.

And, while manga should not and should never be taken as gospel for what happens in Japan, I think most people know that Queer people aren't accepted there. It sounds very condescending with how you worded it.

They don't shy away from intimate affection in the way men do - they can say "I love you" without having to suffix it with something like ", man ..." in order to make it clear that it's platonic. Granted, there is some scientific evidence that female sexuality is a bit more fluid (the old "college lesbian" trope) than for males, so a sexual thing here could still be somewhat plausible.

This depends largely on the people.

With my female friendships, I'm not a very touchy feely person. With someone I'm interested in, I am.
I would never say, "I love you," to one of my friends in the way Eli and Honoka do, though I do say, "I love you," to my immediate family members.

I don't like touching my female friends.

Women aren't a hive mind.

Well if she's asexual, then she's definitely not sexually attracted to her - although I imagine that by "asexual" you perhaps mean something more like demi-sexual in that she can only fall in love or experience sexual/romantic attraction with someone after getting to know them. And the problem with that is that Honoka clearly demonstrates arousal at the idea of sex between males.

This does not matter. People can be bisexual, which I think you mentioned. (I am not running on very many hours of sleep here. Please excuse the formatting if I messed up the quotes).

This seems to be a sticking point for many, that Honoka writes and is sexually attracted to male on male romance.
Sexuality is fluid.

Also, asexual people can fall in love and get into relationships with other people. Asexuality is on a spectrum.

That, and demisexuality. People can be bisexual and demisexual. So, Honoka could not have liked Eli that way when she was wearing a skimpy outfit and was still bisexual or a lesbian.

That, and lesbians can be interested and drool at BL relationships too. My friend is a lesbian and she loves reading BL manga and never reads yuri manga. She has a girlfriend.

Plus, it's also nice seeing gay people in real life. Representation. I mean, I would be excited seeing other gay people in real life. I think Honoka is the same way.

Personally, though, I think both Eli and Honoka are bisexual.

Also, dude, if someone is having a conversation with you on the Internet -I mean it's the Internet, so it's whatever- you should read all of it before quoting stuff.

last edited at Jul 13, 2022 1:46PM

While we’re talking about the BL, I do want to say that I love its inclusion. Something I like about the presence of BL in this series is that not only are the different girls’ relationships to BL varied in nuanced ways, but we also get to see how divorced the BL is from the actual gay couple in the story.

It’s not to say that BL never represents actual queer men, but it’s function is often not geared toward that in the first place. I know a lot of trans-mascs and queer women who’ve used BL as a kind safe experimentation space for figuring things out about themselves.

There’s also a lot to be said for how BL reflects cultural attitudes about the interplay between masculinity and social power. I think boiling it down to “dude hot, so two dudes is more hot” dismisses a lot of rich context involved in the creation and consumption of the genre.

Now, I’m a trans woman, so I don’t want to speak over any queer men or afab people who would have a more authentic perspective, so please tell me if I’m off base here

last edited at Jul 13, 2022 2:03PM

Which is my point. It was obvious you were in a shitty mood. Which is fine - just be honest about it. I didn't want to have a "shitty mood" discussion.

I was considering whatever or not I should specify that I only mean when I was replying to your second post, but for some unyurily reason I figured you'll get it. No clue why, since all the evidence so far was pointing out that you'll misunderstand it again and... here we go.

For Christ's sake. Yeah. Here we go, alright. Let's debunk your latest petty prevarication (I'll use boldface so you can skim more easily):

I was actually in very shitty mood, but despite that I decided to take the high road, even though you'd be perfect place to vent some of my frustration, so be grateful I didn't actually show how me being angry looks like.

You said this in your second post (at 7:15 PM, edited 7:35). Which means you were clearly referring to your first post (at 10:26 AM, edited 10:28). This was in response to my statement about your first post claiming that you were angry.

You had just spent two paragraphs telling me about how you weren't angry in your first post. That you were incredibly civil and calm, and that you curse for emphasis (as you did in your first post) because you're not a native speaker, and now you were telling me that I should be grateful you hadn't actually written in an angry fashion to me - in your first post. Which is what you were clearly talking about.

It's not the fault of anyone's "reading comprehension" that they don't infer something that you didn't say - and obviously didn't mean. I haven't misunderstood anything - your backpedaling is just ridiculously transparent. "Oh I figured it should be obvious what I actually meant ... guess you're just too dim to see it". That's a tired old trick, kid. You think I've never seen someone pull that bullshit before? It reminds me of Trump after Helsinki.

I would say that you're the one with comprehension problems, but we both know that's not true. Your grasp of English is just fine. You're just scrambling for a face-saving lie and getting your story confused. All to avoid the simple courtesy of saying "my bad".

Don't get more pissed at me for saying this. We're both angry, and just like you, I'm resisting fully unloading on you. If you're wondering why I'm persisting, it's because I think, unlike a lot of people online, you could be an enjoyable conversation partner if you could control your temper. As I've had to learn to do. I know you think you hid your anger at first, but you didn't. Which is why I responded the way I did. I was honestly trying to lower the temperature. If that seemed insincere to you, I am sorry about that.

But I proved to you that I was sincere when I replied soon after to the rest of your post - which you probably didn't even read. One would hope you'd at least have had the decency to acknowledge that, since it was the root of our misunderstanding.

I'm guessing you still have no desire to converse. That's a shame. You're thoughtful and intelligent when you want to be (more than I can say for many), but you lack the maturity to admit when you're wrong. So you dig in, start making up excuses, and then hurl childish insults out of embarrassment when called out.

I wish you'd step back, cool down, and reply with some grace and maturity. But I'm fully expecting you to make up some other nonsensical explanation contradicting something else you've previously said, and blame me for not understanding what you clearly didn't mean - or for inferring what you clearly did. I expect this because it seems pretty clear to me that you're quite young, and people don't grow up overnight. Some never do at all.

But I'll be happy to give you a big ol' apology if you prove me wrong. If not, let's drop it.

last edited at Jul 13, 2022 8:21PM

I'm very used to writing walls of text that then nobody reads/replies to and honestly at this point I barely bother to post, because it feels like a waste of time, so I forgot to thank you in my previous post for proving to me yet again, that it indeed is just a waste of time. I hope you'll appreciate experiencing for yourself how it feels.

Talking only for the record I'd like to state I've read all of Eromancer's posts as well as yours and everyone else's, and I found the debate very interesting. I only wish civility would be a greater concern for all involved.

Yeah, no argument there. I have clearly failed in that regard.

But thank you for reading my posts and not assuming I'm some men's rights incel crusading for heteronormativity. Nobody explicitly said that to me, but it was the vibe I was getting from everone piling on. I was just trying to have a conversation about a relationship in a manga that I find interesting.

I just posted an angry response before this - I should probably delete it but that would be insincere. I promise everyone it will be my last one ever on this forum.

last edited at Jul 13, 2022 8:09PM

We're clearly past the point of off-topic now. You should really drop it now.

Being terrible to people who you feel are being terrible is never a solution. And lamenting civility immediately after a literal wall of condescension and hostility is disingenuous to put it charitably.

We're clearly past the point of off-topic now. You should really drop it now.

Yes. Agreed.

Being terrible to people who you feel are being terrible is never a solution. And lamenting civility immediately after a literal wall of condescension and hostility is disingenuous to put it charitably.

Well, that's why I took ownership of it. Do you think I should delete it? Seems insincere.

Sorry for my chippy response to you earlier. Came at a bad time.

Mod Note

Guess I should've been here a while ago, but better late than never. In the case anyone wishes to make amends, they may do so. Otherwise, we're dropping this particular conversation for the time being. Thanks.

Mod Note

Guess I should've been here a while ago, but better late than never. In the case anyone wishes to make amends, they may do so. Otherwise, we're dropping this particular conversation for the time being. Thanks.

Nevri, whatever our misunderstandings and opinions of each other, I hope we can one day converse when we're being our better selves.

I don't understand why people get mad with Kaoru. Like, I understand not liking a character, but it's not like she's in "control" of what she's doing. It's the author who writes her like that xD. But I understand that it's better to be mad at a fictional character rather than the author lol.
Anyway, every time you see someone doing something dumb or bad please keep in mind that all the characters depicted are 17 years old at most I think. You shouldn't expect high levels of emotional maturity (or maturity in general). At that age, or younger than that age, people who act responsibly and maturely are the exception not the rule.

That being said, of course I also want to see Kaoru become a better person, it's not fun to read about someone being an asshole to people who don't deserve it. I'd like to see her struggle and make an actual effort to improve. You know, character development and all that stff

That being said, of course I also want to see Kaoru become a better person, it's not fun to read about someone being an asshole to people who don't deserve it. I'd like to see her struggle and make an actual effort to improve. You know, character development and all that stff

It's the age-old trope - the hotter someone is, the more the audience (or readership) will give them chances to improve. Bad boys and bad girls. If Kaoru wasn't stunningly beautiful, she'd be the "protagonist's creepy friend" trope.

I think many people are familiar with someone in real life of whom Kaoru reminds them. Those that make no effort to improve are often rewarded for it, which is understandably infuriating. I'm personally very interested in seeing her growth as a person, because everyone deserves that chance.

Nevri posted:

eromancer posted:

You said this in your second post (at 7:15 PM, edited 7:35). Which means you were clearly referring to your first post (at 10:26 AM, edited 10:28). This was in response to my statement about your first post claiming that you were angry.==

Och, for Madoka's sake. First post, second post, third post. I made first post. Then saw your reply to it later once I got into shitty mood, but instead of destroying you with FACTS and LOGIC with my second reply I instead decided to hold back, only comment about few things and stop it there. It's not rocket science. Good job. You managed to make me loose my cool.

Nevri, you've been banned for a day for refusal to stop when told to.

eromancer posted:

Did you not see that the Moderator shut this down? I know what you were claiming, and it's not what you wrote, nor is it a believable explanation for what you wrote. So just stop. You're embarrassing yourself, and this thread has had enough of us.

eromancer, you'll be better off not replying next time. Consider this a warning. Deleting your post as well.

last edited at Jul 14, 2022 9:46AM

Never thought I'd see an uploader get banned, even if only for a day.

Well,what now?! What happened?
Naaaaah,don't tell me. Except the topic: don't let it be about sex and potential sexual affinities. Everything get complicated nowadays who tonshag and what name it should get...

And now....nao and hibiki?! So midori is their weird sideline? Ohohoh, Hibiki is a tease, but.....ohohoh, HANDHOLDING!

This debate is a couple pages old but do y’all really believe that being a fujoshi precludes a woman from being gay? That is hard to believe, because in real life many closeted gay women initially gravitate to BL because it’s a “safe” way to explore the idea of same-sex love. I literally know multiple (cis) gay women who will readily admit to having done this

last edited at Jul 20, 2022 5:25PM

facepalm