I love how people are just casually discussing "Claire's downfall" here, as if that wouldn't be a spoiler to people still unfamiliar with the story. The popularity of a work does not warrant openly discussing important plot elements in unrelated threads.

Claire really isn't evil (or tsun) as much as proud, so I still think himedere fits her best... but I'm also not trying to spoil people who are manga only so this isn't the place for this debate, either. Agree to disagree, for now.

Yes, this really wasn't the place.
I don't mind people discussing whatever they want, but please use the spoiler tags. I've more than once been spoiled by people who thought that it's okay to talk about what happens later in a story because it was "already obvious" or they "thought everyone already knew". (I'm still salty about getting the ending of Five Centimeters Per Second spoiled for me XD)

And this is relevant how? Are you trying to one-up me with some strange idea of superior knowledge? The funny thing is that I read the fan translation first and only afterwards read the official translations.

I mean... you're the one who made it an issue in the first place.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.

Okay now you're moving goalposts. According to your original premise she couldn't be himedere because she's a villainess.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."

Um... yeah that's called a sadist, not a himedere. A himedere is mostly just obsessed with their own status, though there is a decent amount of overlap between himedere, tsundere, and sadist.

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

I think you're just gaslighting me at this point. Claire has the ringcurls, the laugh, the obsession with her own nobility, but I'm wrong (and apparently shallow?) for believing my own eyes that she's himedere. Whatever, the belligerence isn't helping your case.

Very cute. "Iconic or essential" are the classic nitpicker's criteria, so you can have the rest of this conversation to yourself.

I mean... nothing has changed aside from some wording since my first post when I was pondering "noteworthy" tsundere in yuri but I appreciate the list, I guess.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 1:05PM

Very cute. "Iconic or essential" are the classic nitpicker's criteria, so you can have the rest of this conversation to yourself.

I mean... nothing has changed aside from some wording since my first post when I was pondering "noteworthy" tsundere in yuri but I appreciate the list, I guess.

Yeah, we've been talking past each other the whole time because my point was about yuri romance manga, while you were discussing characters in a hodgepodge of light novels and anime of various genres, some of which may have had a manga manifestation at some point. But we need not do that any more.

GendoIkari posted:

Waiting for girlfriend to be of age.

But they taste much better if you wait

I love how people are just casually discussing "Claire's downfall" here, as if that wouldn't be a spoiler to people still unfamiliar with the story. The popularity of a work does not warrant openly discussing important plot elements in unrelated threads.

I'm still mostly trying to avoid a debate with the hostile person but the general premise of villainess isekai is that its... not going to go so well for the villainess. I don't think that's a spoiler.

Yeah, we've been talking past each other the whole time because my point was about yuri romance manga, while you were discussing characters in a hodgepodge of light novels and anime of various genres, some of which may have had a manga manifestation at some point. But we need not do that any more.

As I said already my preference is visual novels (where every route is a winner) and manga but when people are responding to me with references to stuff like Darling in the FranXX I'm going to go with the most well known examples I can think of.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:05PM

I love how people are just casually discussing "Claire's downfall" here, as if that wouldn't be a spoiler to people still unfamiliar with the story. The popularity of a work does not warrant openly discussing important plot elements in unrelated threads.

Is IFTV popular? I wasn't even aware. In fact the reason I did not even consider this an issue is that it would be asinine for people seeing us discuss a series they havent completed yet to read the conversation in the first place. I won't make excuses like saying that it should be obvious that a story about a villainess has a negative intended outcome for the villainess (whether this comes true or not), but at least some caution around unfinished works should be applied.

I will add spoiler tags, but please, try to be more careful as well. It's easier for everyone if both sides are cautious.

I mean... you're the one who made it an issue in the first place.

....I did not. You were the one who brought up that you read it all and that I am probably manga reader who isn't aware of where the plot goes yet as an argument. I merely tried to convey that we are on the same level of insight here and that the discussion thus has no such limitations.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.

Okay now you're moving goalposts. According to your original premise she couldn't be himedere because she's a villainess.

I never said that. I said a himedere is not a villainess by default and vice versa. In fact I said a villainess can be a himedere, but it's not somehow a requirement. I am sorry, you seem to have lost the thread of the conversation a few times now. I implore you to carefully read my posts.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."

Um... yeah that's called a sadist, not a himedere. A himedere is mostly just obsessed with their own status, though there is a decent amount of overlap between himedere, tsundere, and sadist.

Not exactly. The flaunting of status, the desire for control over the partner and the direct expression of ownership are all himedere traits. They are not traditionally tsundere traits. Sadism is a different aspect altogether, though they can mix.
A himedere will compensate a love interest with affection if they show reverence or suitably impress them. This can be viewed as sadistic at times, but in most cases it actually is just dominance.

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

I think you're just gaslighting me at this point. Claire has the ringcurls, the laugh, the obsession with her own nobility, but I'm wrong (and apparently shallow?) for believing my own eyes that she's himedere. Whatever, the belligerence isn't helping your case.

....you are very unpleasant to converse with. I have been trying my hardest to reply objectively. I genuinly am trying to explain to you why your viewpoint might be off. Ring-curls and the ojou-sama laugh are exactly that... ojou-sama traits. An ojou-sama is not a himedere by default. In fact they mostly aren't. An ojou-sama can be anything from a tsundere to a kuudere or yandere. And yes, even a himedere. But you seem to purposely avoid every reason I gave you for why Claire is a typical tsundere.

I fear I cannot get through to you, so this will be my last response.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:16PM

I love how people are just casually discussing "Claire's downfall" here, as if that wouldn't be a spoiler to people still unfamiliar with the story. The popularity of a work does not warrant openly discussing important plot elements in unrelated threads.

I'm still mostly trying to avoid a debate with the hostile person but the general premise of villainess isekai is that its... not going to go so well for the villainess. I don't think that's a spoiler.

I guess that's fair.
Though, is it really a given? Like, it doesn't happen in My Next Life as a Villainess, does it? Note: I've only watched up to about the middle of season two, but if it really does happen later on, I would be surprised (covered this in case someone accused me of spoiling that it doesn't happen lol —I would deserve it).

Is IFTV popular? I wasn't even aware. In fact the reason I did not even consider this an issue is that it would be asinine for people seeing us discuss a series they havent completed yet to read it. I won't make excuses like saying that it should be obvious that a story about a villainess has a negative intended outcome for the villainess (whether this comes true or not), but at least some caution around unfinished works should be applied.

I will add spoiler tags, but please, try to be more careful as well. It's easier for everyone if both sides are cautious.

I do believe it is quite popular, at least in the West, not sure about Japan.
But thanks for calling me stupid...? lol
For the record, I was just interested in the talk about tsunderes and himederes. After all, we are in a discussion about tropes, not one about IFTV, so I don't see why openly discussing the plot should have been expected. Though I can also understand why you might have thought it was okay.

I didn't actually mind the spoilers tbh, since it's already pretty clear where things are going where the manga is now, what bothers me is how often people assume that others won't mind it, with excuses like what I said before.

Anyway, perhaps I was a bit more aggressive than needed (as I said, still salty from past experiences...)

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:25PM

But thanks for calling me stupid...? lol

For the record, I was just interested in the talk about tsunderes and himederes. After all, we are in a discussion about tropes, not one about IFTV, so I don't see why openly discussing the plot should have been expected. Though I can also understand why you might have thought it was okay.

Was the hyperbole really necessary? I haven't questioned your intelligence at all.
To me it is obvious not to read conversations that involve series I haven't finished, this is why I was surprised by your perspective. Perhaps we are simply used to different conversational ettiquette. The internet is not exactly graceful about such matters, so I was trying to impart my own advice on the two-way caution system.

I can at least understand that a first post could catch you off-guard and it would certainly be unfortunate if there were spoilers in it, that would be very careless of the poster indeed. It's just that in this case we only brought in spoilers later on, so by that point I was certain no manga-only would continue reading it.

I'm glad the spoilers were mild enough not to affect you at least. Apologies nontheless.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:41PM

....I did not. You were the one who brought up that you read it all and that I am probably manga reader who isn't aware of where the plot goes yet as an argument. I merely tried to convey that we are on the same level of insight here and that the discussion thus has no such limitations.

Its kind of sad that that was your takeaway from a paragraph in which I was discussing my appreciation for the archetype as a whole, but I'd still prefer not spoiling things for manga readers. This isn't the topic for this discussion.

Not exactly. The flaunting of status, the desire for control over the partner and the direct expression of ownership are all himedere traits. They are not traditionally tsundere traits. Sadism is a different aspect altogether, though they can mix.
A himedere will compensate a love interest with affection if they show reverence or suitably impress them. This can be viewed as sadistic at times, but in most cases it actually is just dominance.

Examples would probably be more helpful than your own headcanon because I really have no clue where you're getting the notion that a himedere relationship is by default a dom/sub thing. Meanwhile I've given two examples, and one tsundere with himedere traits.

I never said that. I said a himedere is not a villainess by default and vice versa.

That's my bad but your posts are just a blur of angry gaslighting to me at this point. Sorry not sorry.

....you are very unpleasant to converse with. I have been trying my hardest to reply objectively. I genuinly am trying to explain to you why your viewpoint might be off. Ring-curls and the ojou-sama laugh are exactly that... oujou-sama traits.

If you go back to my initial post I just called her "ojou" while comparing her to Luviagelita Edelfelt (Rin's rival from Fate) since others brought up Tohsaka and you still deemed it necessary to correct me while claiming I'm being swayed by appearances or something. Spare me the hypocrisy.

But you seem to purposely avoid every reason I gave you for why Claire is a typical tsundere.

Because you're wrong? I already suggested we agree to disagree to avoid spoilers but you doubled down on the hostility.

I fear I cannot get through to you, so this will be my last response.

Next time try being less belligerent and more right. Oh, and more examples.

I guess that's fair.
Though, is it really a given? Like, it doesn't happen in My Next Life as a Villainess, does it? Note: I've only watched up to about the middle of season two, but if it really does happen later on, I would be surprised (covered this in case someone accused me of spoiling that it doesn't happen lol —I would deserve it).

I'm pretty sure the harem would never let that happen but I'm anime only. Though if it gets translated I'm playing the VN for sure... there's no yuri options unfortunately.

Usually its more about avoiding the worst ending, but the Chinese yuri villainess manga has the MC starting out in exile so I guess it can go any which way at this point.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 4:03PM

At this point there's been like 6 separate instances (this is hyperbole) in which some variation of "let's stop" or "let's agree to disagree" was posted. So, let's stop already. Thanks.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 4:47PM

At this point there's been like 6 separate instances in which some variation of "let's stop" or "let's agree to disagree" was posted. So, let's stop already. Thanks.

When I decided to end the conversation that is it from my side, I guarantee it.
Still, it would be nice if the mods could keep an eye on @strayalive. They seem excessively hostile or disparaging in every conversation they had in this thread.

Not sure if it's specifically a Yuri trope (I don't read much non-Yuri romance), but I really dislike the "I don't know what love is" trope where a girl somehow is completely clueless what a romantic relationship is even supposed to be. Unless the story is making a specific point that a character is extremely sheltered or maybe from a strict household were anything romance-related is strictly forbidden, it just feels super weird to me and just makes me want to roll my eyes

Not sure if it's specifically a Yuri trope (I don't read much non-Yuri romance), but I really dislike the "I don't know what love is" trope where a girl somehow is completely clueless what a romantic relationship is even supposed to be. Unless the story is making a specific point that a character is extremely sheltered or maybe from a strict household were anything romance-related is strictly forbidden, it just feels super weird to me and just makes me want to roll my eyes

At least the version of the trope that I've seen is more like "Everybody's talking about love and who they like but I don't feel anything like that." So it's not like they've never seen romantic relationships on TV or in the movies, but that kind of thing just doesn't seem to have anything to do with them.

But maybe I'm mistaking what you're talking about.

At least the version of the trope that I've seen is more like "Everybody's talking about love and who they like but I don't feel anything like that." So it's not like they've never seen romantic relationships on TV or in the movies, but that kind of thing just doesn't seem to have anything to do with them.

But maybe I'm mistaking what you're talking about.

I guess the most egregious version I can think of is Haruka in Sakura Trick who even after being confessed to just doesn't understand what that means. That's the extreme, but there are a fair number of characters who literally do not seem to grasp the concept of love, rather than just not feeling it

Not sure if it's specifically a Yuri trope (I don't read much non-Yuri romance), but I really dislike the "I don't know what love is" trope where a girl somehow is completely clueless what a romantic relationship is even supposed to be. Unless the story is making a specific point that a character is extremely sheltered or maybe from a strict household were anything romance-related is strictly forbidden, it just feels super weird to me and just makes me want to roll my eyes

Is it supposed to be like an aro or ace thing? I've seen that hinted on occasion but not represented particularly well. Usually stuff like that ends up being another way to say "but we're both girls!"

Not sure if it's specifically a Yuri trope (I don't read much non-Yuri romance), but I really dislike the "I don't know what love is" trope where a girl somehow is completely clueless what a romantic relationship is even supposed to be. Unless the story is making a specific point that a character is extremely sheltered or maybe from a strict household were anything romance-related is strictly forbidden, it just feels super weird to me and just makes me want to roll my eyes

Is it supposed to be like an aro or ace thing? I've seen that hinted on occasion but not represented particularly well. Usually stuff like that ends up being another way to say "but we're both girls!"

Suspecting it's some weird purity fetish thing in the overwhelming majority of cases.

I guess the most egregious version I can think of is Haruka in Sakura Trick who even after being confessed to just doesn't understand what that means. That's the extreme, but there are a fair number of characters who literally do not seem to grasp the concept of love, rather than just not feeling it

Interestingly, but Sakura Trick is actually the only one that I know of in this regard. And it is not just Haruka, Yuu as well has no clue whatsoever. Two braindead bricks, literally ignorant that such a thing as dating exists. The only series in existence filled with two grills frenching each other from the get-go, yet by the end it turns out they are not considering their relationship to be anything other than friendship because they literally do not know other options exist. Shredded my suspension of disbelief in seconds, and caused me to viscerally hate the entire series. But that is also the only such instance that I know of, all the other stuff of similar nature fits more into what Blastaar described.

Interestingly, but Sakura Trick is actually the only one that I know of in this regard. And it is not just Haruka, Yuu as well has no clue whatsoever. Two braindead bricks, literally ignorant that such a thing as dating exists. The only series in existence filled with two grills frenching each other from the get-go, yet by the end it turns out they are not considering their relationship to be anything other than friendship because they literally do not know other options exist. Shredded my suspension of disbelief in seconds, and caused me to viscerally hate the entire series. But that is also the only such instance that I know of, all the other stuff of similar nature fits more into what Blastaar described.

My memory of where else I read this is really fuzzy honestly, so I might very well be overestimating the amount of stories where stuff like that happens. I do, however, have a distinct feeling that I saw the trope it in at least another few stories and not in the way that Blastaar described. No idea though what series or if those were maybe just oneshots, so not really helpful, I know

This. I know I was kinda guilty of this myself, but since we're discussing tropes here, not stories, let's try at least keep it spoiler free and if you need to, mark them. There might be people who read those posts, because they want to be part of the conversation, but don't want to be spoiled and might not realized they're coming in time (I didn't read work myself, so no idea how bad those spoilers really are).

I don't think we spoiled anything but obvious stuff like "the villainess has a bad end to avoid". Is it a spoiler knowing there's a canon 18+ side story, or a retelling?

Its tricky talking about some archetypes though because when it comes to a character (like classic tsundere) that undergoes a transformation its not just about certain traits, its about the character's entire arc. Redemption is even more complicated, and can take time. Archetypes definitely involve a set of expectations... but then I suppose there are also people who don't like seeing a character lose their edge, as well. It is what it is, I suppose.

Back to the original topic, I'm don't think I'm really a fan of the 'kissing from ch1 but not acknowledging each other until god knows when' trope. I sort of struggle with the pacing of yuri courtship in general, between externalities and strange logic keeping kissing classmates apart or focusing so much on one characters internal struggles that its shocking their love interest is still around. Though I guess the latter isn't uncommon in shoujo, either, but its still kind of bad when Sawako looks confident by comparison. Regardless, its tough to find courtships that feel 'just right'.

I don't think we spoiled anything but obvious stuff like "the villainess has a bad end to avoid". Is it a spoiler knowing there's a canon 18+ side story, or a retelling?

Unless I misunderstood, your discussion wasn't about "the villainess has a bad end to avoid", but rather "the villainess will get a bad end". Nothing particularly specific was mentioned, but I do believe that to be an important plot element, which is entirely different from mentioning the existence of spin-offs, since those are merchandise that you could easily come across when looking to buy the work. But anyway, I understand that no one meant any harm.

To put this matter aside, I also got a trope that I really dislike, of which I was reminded while reading "The Real Momoka". I also mentioned it there, but I really hate those stories where a character is in an unsatisfactory to them relationship, where they're basically just going along with whatever rules the other person has set and are like, "I really hate this/her, but it's too late, she's already got me under her spell" or some other stupid excuse. It annoys the hell out of me. This usually involves the other partner being a player, more often than not bisexual, who openly fools around with other people.

Another variation of this is when the two characters are not in a relationship and are simply friends, with one of them secretly being on love with the other, and constantly having to hear her friend's stories of all the men she's "seduced". And just going "God, she's so terrible, but I'm also one of her victims". It exasperates me.

To put this matter aside, I also got a trope that I really dislike, of which I was reminded while reading "The Real Momoka". I also mentioned it there, but I really hate those stories where a character is in an unsatisfactory to them relationship, where they're basically just going along with whatever rules the other person has set and are like, "I really hate this/her, but it's too late, she's already got me under her spell" or some other stupid excuse. It annoys the hell out of me. This usually involves the other partner being a player, more often than not bisexual, who openly fools around with other people.

Another variation of this is when the two characters are not in a relationship and are simply friends, with one of them secretly being on love with the other, and constantly having to hear her friend's stories of all the men she's "seduced". And just going "God, she's so terrible, but I'm also one of her victims". It exasperates me.

I understand you completely here. It is one of the things I dislike immensely as well. Though that particular story you bring up is interesting in so far that it was a misunderstanding mostly. It rarely turns out that well.

Honestly, that story brought up the overarching issue for me that goes along right with that. Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out. This can go both ways. The total victim mentality of "Why do you not understand my feelings? Take a hint!" even though she never actually voices said feelings is simply attrocious. Similarily the other party assuming that not spelling anything out is good enough, because obviously she gets that you love her and take it seriously even though you never established that... Ugh.

This mostly goes along with wet towel protagonists who don't have the mental strength to confess or to ever say how they feel. It's a cheap attempt at drawing up Angst. It's one thing to have conflicted feelings before a realization or having genuine worries about ruining something. It's another to suffer through a bad situation for absolutely no reason just because you expect the other party to mindread.

Licentious Lantern posted:

Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out.

I totally agree, but I feel this one more than anything is just writers clutch. In vast majority of stories, if characters would just talk things out, you'd have no story.

In this particular case the lack of communication I was talking about was really related to the inability to express emotions. Unable to confess and expecting the other party to just figure it out. The partner who just assumes they are in a certain type of relationship because they feel that's how it is etc. I think these are less writer's crutches and just cultural issues. I never see this kind of writing outside of Japanese media.

Of course the girl who pines for her crush but never confesses is a common enough trope everywhere, usually it's a matter of insecurity about whether they will reciprocate or fear that it may ruin their relationship (those are also common enough in Japanese romance). But only in Japanese media do I see the entitlement of the characters to expect the other party to have to pick up the hints and figure out that the girl is in love with them. This confusingly asinine writing where a character makes incredibly complicated plans for the other party to realize they are in love with them... without actually just saying it. Not only does this make the chances of getting to the point incredibly slim, it also leaves open room for the love interest to actually figure it out, but stay quiet about it due to uncertainty or other reasons.

Both those cases of lacking communication, I believe, are based on the passivity of Japanese society. Expressing oneself, talking about feelings, approaching the opposite sex (it's even worse for homosexuals obviously) are all highly discouraged in Japan. Furthermore there is an inherent ideal that a man has to confess, so obviously Shoujo manga will push this trope into overdrive and Yuri manga are left with two female love interests who both cannot take initiative.

last edited at Jan 11, 2022 9:18PM

Licentious Lantern posted:

Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out.

I totally agree, but I feel this one more than anything is just writers clutch. In vast majority of stories, if characters would just talk things out, you'd have no story.

In this particular case the lack of communication I was talking about was really related to the inability to express emotions. Unable to confess and expecting the other party to just figure it out. The partner who just assumes they are in a certain type of relationship because they feel that's how it is etc. I think these are less writer's crutches and just cultural issues. I never see this kind of writing outside of Japanese media.

Of course the girl who pines for her crush but never confesses is a common enough trope everywhere, usually it's a matter of insecurity about whether they will reciprocate or fear that it may ruin their relationship (those are also common enough in Japanese romance). But only in Japanese media do I see the entitlement of the characters to expect the other party to have to pick up the hints and figure out that the girl is in love with them. This confusingly asinine writing where a character makes incredibly complicated plans for the other party to realize they are in love with them... without actually just saying it. Not only does this make the chances of getting to the point incredibly slim, it also leaves open room for the love interest to actually figure it out, but stay quiet about it due to uncertainty or other reasons.

LOL, quite right. If there's one takeaway from every therapist ever, it's been: "Nobody is a mind-reader."

Both those cases of lacking communication, I believe, are based on the passivity of Japanese society. Expressing oneself, talking about feelings, approaching the opposite sex (it's even worse for homosexuals obviously) are all highly discouraged in Japan. Furthermore there is an inherent ideal that a man has to confess, so obviously Shoujo manga will push this trope into overdrive and Yuri manga are left with two female love interests who both cannot take initiative.

Sounds like you're more or less talking about 'notice me senpai!' which is definitely... quintessentially Japanese. Generally speaking though I think nothing is really supposed to come out of those kind of infatuations... senpai typically doesn't notice and the kouhai moves on to a better match. Though it does play out awkwardly in yuri.

Sounds like you're more or less talking about 'notice me senpai!' which is definitely... quintessentially Japanese. Generally speaking though I think nothing is really supposed to come out of those kind of infatuations... senpai typically doesn't notice and the kouhai moves on to a better match. Though it does play out awkwardly in yuri.

I'm not talking about that meme/trope, although it may be an adjacent issue to it. The "senpai notice me" trope is usually for background characters or minor side-characters who obviously have no chance with their target of affection.

I am talking about actual love interests, mostly main characters. It is very common for a girl to constantly internally demand that her crush realizes she is in love with them. She will go out of her way to give extreme hints or set up a romantic situation, but never actually confess, just hoping the other party will somehow get it and maybe confess first. The entitled mental process is really exasperating. It's not even the "I will make you fall for me!" trope, because that one would at least be more proactive.
An even worse variation was mentioned above, where the girl is in a bad limbo relationship and doesn't speak up, but is blaming the other party for not noticing. All these lack of communication tropes are alike.

Also I can't tell why you think this awkward trope is more awkward in Yuri. They are the same level of pointless in any genre.