All I’m saying is that calling korean, chinese, thai, american, and taiwanese comics yuri isn’t accurate. I like that dynasty has been expanding it’s scope in terms of different wlw comics, images, and media, and I just think that the tag should be updated to reflect that. I think calling GL generic or ‘doesn’t have the same ring to it’ are both kinda non-issues.

It's not that i'm against but that will an atrocious long time to tag every single work with the appropriate country.

I already said that and @OrangePekoe said that its fine as long as it brings some other value. Which I think it pretty obviously does.

I will be honest,it sound more like you want Dynasty to become a pseudo MD for Yuri because most of the changes you ask are from MD. I'm not saying it's a bad point but i just wanted to point it out.

That’s not my intention, the reason is just that mangadex has hosted a lot more korean and chinese series for a while now, while it’s only in the past year or so that I’ve really seen a big increase in non-japanese series here, so I think it’s fair to bring up sorting by country now.

I’ll admit that I’ve only been active here for a year and my first site was mangadex, but i don’t think this one addition is as big a deal as to turn dynasty-scans into a psuedo-mangadex. Bato.to is another big website that uses country of origin tags to help filter for example. I think country tags are just another way to find more series you like, no different than sorting by author or any genre tag like school life or office lady.

I don’t have the specific numbers but in the last 6-7 months alone a significant number of new series have been korean or chinese, and based on their popularity it seems safe to say that this trend will continue, or maybe even increase, so for people looking specifically for these types of series it just makes the most sense to update the website with country tags.

All I’m saying is that calling korean, chinese, thai, american, and taiwanese comics yuri isn’t accurate

How does that change anything ? We talking about the same thing. Nobody gonna misunderstand if you say that a wlw chinese manga is a yuri. Also thai and taiwanese are the same thing as far as i know.

Cornonthekopp posted:

I think calling GL generic or ‘doesn’t have the same ring to it’ are both kinda non-issues.

For you.

All I’m saying is that calling korean, chinese, thai, american, and taiwanese comics yuri isn’t accurate. I like that dynasty has been expanding it’s scope in terms of different wlw comics, images, and media, and I just think that the tag should be updated to reflect that.

You do realize that accuracy is not the end goal with tagging in Dynasty, right? Furthermore, yuri in Dynasty, afaik, has never refered to "Yuri Genre", even when there were only japanese works on the site.

I think calling GL generic or ‘doesn’t have the same ring to it’ are both kinda non-issues.

It seems to be a non-issue that yuri in Dynasty doesn't refer to "Yuri Genre" since this didn't seem to bother anyone before.

All I’m saying is that calling korean, chinese, thai, american, and taiwanese comics yuri isn’t accurate

How does that change anything ? We talking about the same thing. Nobody gonna misunderstand if you say that a wlw chinese manga is a yuri. Also thai and taiwanese are the same thing as far as i know.

thai -> thailand

taiwanese -> Taiwan

I'll have more to say later but, I think it's best if we just drop this non-productive conversation for the time being.

To me Yuri isn't a genre, but a universal idea.

All I’m saying is that calling korean, chinese, thai, american, and taiwanese comics yuri isn’t accurate

How does that change anything ? We talking about the same thing. Nobody gonna misunderstand if you say that a wlw chinese manga is a yuri. Also thai and taiwanese are the same thing as far as i know.

thai -> thailand

taiwanese -> Taiwan

it's just me being stupid then

I think it's a bad idea to make a distinction about the country of origin of the works.

There's no value to it, except for a few narrow-minded persons who would like to filter only specific countries. Who cares if the artist is from China or Japan? What counts is if the story is good.

It's always been the philosophy of Dynasty: if the staff considers a work worthwhile to read, they will try to get it on the reader to share, whether it's Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Yuri or not.

Brief history of terminology (as it was explained to me during an LGBT in Japan workshop): Unlike M/M stories that got split into Bara and Yaoi early on, Yuri was the general term in Japan for all F/F relationship stories, from platonic to hentai. When they eventually decided that they needed to somehow distinguish the "softer" works from more graphic stuff, they used the term "Girls' Love" or GL; that is, they used the English term because shoujo ai was already in use to identify het pedo hentai (yuck). Problem is, English speakers back-translated girls' love as "shoujo ai" -- so now it has a completely different meaning to English-speakers than it does to the Japanese. This confusion is, afaik, why the term shoujo ai is avoided on Dynasty.

I'm not sure how "Girls' Love" is used in other countries, but in Japan it is definitively a subset of Yuri. (I don't recall where in the timeline the term BL was introduced. Not my area of interest, I guess.)

last edited at Aug 6, 2021 12:39PM

none posted:

Could we maybe add the names of cover artists at issue's pages when those are known?

That is a fabulous idea. I'll look into it!

Maybe this idea can be incorporated with the recent decision to add covers to image batches. This way we'll have easy access to both a high res version of the illustrations and to the artists.

none posted:

Could we maybe add the names of cover artists at issue's pages when those are known?

That is a fabulous idea. I'll look into it!

Maybe this idea can be incorporated with the recent decision to add covers to image batches. This way we'll have easy access to both a high res version of the illustrations and to the artists.

Yeah, definitely had that in mind!

Yuki Kitsune posted:

Brief history of terminology (as it was explained to me during an LGBT in Japan workshop): Unlike M/M stories that got split into Bara and Yaoi early on, Yuri was the general term in Japan for all F/F relationship stories, from platonic to hentai. When they eventually decided that they needed to somehow distinguish the "softer" works from more graphic stuff, they used the term "Girls' Love" or GL; that is, they used the English term because shoujo ai was already in use to identify het pedo hentai (yuck). Problem is, English speakers back-translated girls' love as "shoujo ai" -- so now it has a completely different meaning to English-speakers than it does to the Japanese. This confusion is, afaik, why the term shoujo ai is avoided on Dynasty.

I'm not sure how "Gilrs' Love" is used in other countries, but in Japan it is definitively a subset of Yuri. (I don't recall where in the timeline the term BL was introduced. Not my area of interest, I guess.)

Excellent post as always. Now, how it relates to the discussion above and a bit about what "Yuri" means to the site specifically.

When the site began over a decade ago, yuri was used with that original meaning; all stories of close F/F relationships were included. It's not until 2014 that we saw some divergence with the introduction of the Subtext tag, and then again (later) in 2014 with the Yuri crush tag (specifically for 4-komas/stories no development). Some of us on staff bristle a bit at the distinction between these categories and just how thin the lines can be between Yuri and Subtext. Still, splitting up the categories was our decision and it's one we'll stick to.

With that in mind, it should be clear we're not mixed up in the shoujo ai business, nor slavishly devoted to maintaining Japanese definitions on an English website. With our past switches away from the mirrored use of yuri, we've also created a slight reverse of the JP definitions - Yuri now refers to f/f romantic relationships, whilst Subtext and Yuri crush refer to relationships of a typically different nature. I'm fine with the contradiction. I'm also fine with continuing on as-is given our history, and if one looks at how new users find the site, they'll find web searches littered with "yuri" as the primary motivator behind it. However, this is all not to say that we might not change some day. If there's a time we're seriously considering it, I'll be sure to post somewhere first, to give everyone the proper opportunity to carry out whatever arguments they wish to.

Lastly, I'll reiterate that Yuri to us means f/f romantic relationships, full stop. As far as I know, this is the commonly-accepted definition throughout English-speaking f/f fandoms for nearly a decade by now.

Lilliwyt posted:

It's not that i'm against but that will an atrocious long time to tag every single work with the appropriate country.

I will be honest,it sound more like you want Dynasty to become a pseudo MD for Yuri because most of the changes you ask are from MD. I'm not saying it's a bad point but i just wanted to point it out.

Time isn't really a factor. I've also had some conversations in the past with some folks in this very thread about things that MD does better than we do, and vice-versa. I don't really use MD at all, but I'm still interested in what they're doing and will gladly copy good ideas and implementations they have. There's no good reason not to, as far as I'm concerned.

Nya-chan posted:

I think it's a bad idea to make a distinction about the country of origin of the works.

There's no value to it, except for a few narrow-minded persons who would like to filter only specific countries. Who cares if the artist is from China or Japan? What counts is if the story is good.

It's always been the philosophy of Dynasty: if the staff considers a work worthwhile to read, they will try to get it on the reader to share, whether it's Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Yuri or not.

While the conclusion is true, I'm not sure if the body is quite correct. You could probably apply the same logic to any tagging distinction, and even in cases where I'd agree, the point of tags is to allow customizability in user interaction. In my experience with Korean and Chinese stories, they've got their own tropes and archetypes just like JP stories do.

Naturally, those aspects may appeal to some readers more than others, so giving them the option to zone in on particular cultures they especially like doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. Moreover, everything from the artist name to the format to the presentation is a dead giveaway in most cases. If someone is seriously closed-minded enough to specifically care about country of origin, surely they'd already be clicking off content they don't like during the first page. If nothing else, the split would help in searches when dealing with hard-to-find stories, as again, you likely know the country of origin just by reading it.

Cornonthekopp posted:

I think that both country tags, as well as a long strip or webtoon tag would both be really helpful for organizing series, as well as making searches easier. Personally I’m a little more partial to long strip over webtoon but I think both do the job well and would be happy with either.

Yeah, Long strip seems to be the more popular choice, as it's very descriptive.

Currently the left to right tag can be seen as a stand in, but considering the non-zero amount of japanese webtoon style comics, it won’t show all webtoons. Of course there are also plenty of non-long strip style comics that fall into the read left to right category too, so it doesn’t really function as a stand in.

Not super related, but you may also use the Scanlator: Indie tag (just type "indie" and the tag will pop up) to find comics released in English.

Are there currently any plans to expand the way Prequel and Sequel are tagged? I find it a little inconvenient to have to scroll through the comments in the hopes that someone provided a link to the sequel or prequel of a work, oftentimes having the story spoiled before I have even read it. This is compounded by the fact that the titles of a multi-work series may not have an obvious indicator in the title to tell whether it is “Part 1” or “Part 2”.

To be clear, I’m not referring to multi-chapter series that have a series page and description, on which all the chapters are listed, but to the oneshots and individual works that have sequels or prequels.

A simple solution could be to pin a link to the sequel or prequel of a work at the top of the comments section, so that it can be easily found without having to scroll through the comments.

Young Blasarius posted:

Are there currently any plans to expand the way Prequel and Sequel are tagged? I find it a little inconvenient to have to scroll through the comments in the hopes that someone provided a link to the sequel or prequel of a work, oftentimes having the story spoiled before I have even read it. This is compounded by the fact that the titles of a multi-work series may not have an obvious indicator in the title to tell whether it is “Part 1” or “Part 2”.

To be clear, I’m not referring to multi-chapter series that have a series page and description, on which all the chapters are listed, but to the oneshots and individual works that have sequels or prequels.

A simple solution could be to pin a link to the sequel or prequel of a work at the top of the comments section, so that it can be easily found without having to scroll through the comments.

I'm actually most inclined to begin integrating all of these into two-part (or more, in rare cases) series. This addresses a number of issues that other solutions unfortunately don't, and it's much easier for us to do now than when we originally chose the tagging solution. Will definitely consider your suggestion in the meanwhile, thank you.

last edited at Jul 22, 2021 5:34PM

I'm actually most inclined to begin integrating all of these into two-part (or more, in rare cases) series. This addresses a number of issues that other solutions unfortunately don't, and it's much easier for us to do now than when we originally chose the tagging solution. Will definitely consider your suggestion in the meanwhile, thank you.

Any change that would make it easier to navigate between a work and its appropriate prequels and sequels would be great.

If you think it would prove beneficial, I suspect you could offload some of the work onto the community. Perhaps, a thread in which members could indicate which prequels and sequels belong together, and in what order they should be listed. This could allow site staff to keep track of what works need to be grouped.

(P.S. First time in this forum. Whenever I try to post, it gets flagged as spam and doesn't allow me to post.)

last edited at Jul 22, 2021 7:43PM

I'm actually most inclined to begin integrating all of these into two-part (or more, in rare cases) series. This addresses a number of issues that other solutions unfortunately don't, and it's much easier for us to do now than when we originally chose the tagging solution.

I think this one would be pretty much perfect.

In my experience with Korean and Chinese stories, they've got their own tropes and archetypes just like JP stories do.

If nothing else, the split would help in searches when dealing with hard-to-find stories, as again, you likely know the country of origin just by reading it.

These are the two main reasons I’d like to see country tags implemented. I often run into issues trying to search for a series and if you don’t remember the name it can be a pain to have to slog through tags such as “school life” “comedy” etc. I also do sometimes legitimately want to read a series with tropes only commonly found in works from one country. Anecdotally I’ve noticed korean manhwa for example, tend to use college campuses as a story setting more often, and involve things like drinking culture and parties a lot more than japanese manga tend to do.

In terms of tropes and archetypes prevalent moreso in one country over another, this is a big reason I wanted to switch from yuri to GL, to better represent the way the tag is used as an umbrella for stories from different countries with unique writing cultures in regards to wlw stories. But I seem to have provoked a pretty negative reaction so I suppose the issue is gonna be dropped for now. I do understand the arguments for yuri being more recognizable to people on the internet, anecdotally when I’ve tried recommending GL series on reddit outside of niche subreddits focused on the genre I have often been met with people who have no clue what it stands for, or assume it means Girl Lead lol.

Not super related, but you may also use the Scanlator: Indie tag (just type "indie" and the tag will pop up) to find comics released in English.

Yep! I’ve definitely used this tag for that purpose, especially with a lot of the images uploaded here.

Should we change Yuri to Super Friends then? It should remove all the confusion.

Young Blasarius posted:

I'm actually most inclined to begin integrating all of these into two-part (or more, in rare cases) series. This addresses a number of issues that other solutions unfortunately don't, and it's much easier for us to do now than when we originally chose the tagging solution. Will definitely consider your suggestion in the meanwhile, thank you.

Any change that would make it easier to navigate between a work and its appropriate prequels and sequels would be great.

If you think it would prove beneficial, I suspect you could offload some of the work onto the community. Perhaps, a thread in which members could indicate which prequels and sequels belong together, and in what order they should be listed. This could allow site staff to keep track of what works need to be grouped.

(P.S. First time in this forum. Whenever I try to post, it gets flagged as spam and doesn't allow me to post.)

Yeah, we may just do that. You've got a spam exception now, shouldn't have any further problems. Hopefully we can figure out what keeps triggering this but...

Hi, is this the right place to ask for help with the spam filter? I think I used the preview post option too many times and my post is being detected as spam.

Plebeian posted:

Hi, is this the right place to ask for help with the spam filter? I think I used the preview post option too many times and my post is being detected as spam.

Should be good now I believe, sorry about that. Nice avatar btw.

last edited at Jul 25, 2021 11:33PM