Raws for next chap are out , anyone else looked at them?

it's a flashback to those 3 at school; idk any japanese at all, but i think it pretty much establishes Risako is a giant B, but i'm not sure it adds anything we didn't know (that being said, i have gotten really confused with what's been revealed so far regarding all 3 of them and our speculation) - hopefully, the dialogue will be juicy tho

You’ve mistaken me for the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

I'm sorry? Could you just straightforwardly say what you mean? I'm confused why you make a baffling one-liner like this instead of responding clearly to anything I wrote.

I would have thought the analogy was obvious--those are strawman versions of things I've said. And insofar as we've discussed such things, it was done elsewhere, so clarifying what I meant would be off-topic here anyway.

Ohhhh. No, it wasn't obvious; it was confusing.
And fair enough, but I don't think pointing to a mysterious Real Job analyzing narratives is very helpful, either. If people think someone here is wrong and make an argument supporting that, any outside authority any of us have isn't really relevant, and trying to invoke it isn't adding anything.

It's obviously possible to summarize this plot so that it seems to flow smoothly, and to defend the logic of the events, (perhaps by ascribing the muddled nature of the presentation to Kaoru's own less-than-sharp mental and emotional state). As I said, readers have been working overtime here to attempt just that.

Of course, that's mostly possible by simply ignoring the abortive cliffhangers/mechanically interrupted confrontations, the chapters that accomplish almost nothing, and the periodic digressions into the high-schoolers-in-love subplot(s).

It's certainly within the realm of possibility that there's some authorial masterplan that will eventually reveal an ingenious rationale for why such basic information as the reason Reiichi married Kaoru or why Kaoru feels guilty about the breakup of Uta's parents' marriage, etc. needed to be kept from readers after being introduced as issues at the very beginning of the series, in which case I'll apologize for doubting the author's competence if and when that time comes.

OK, again, people making this point have kinda dropped the thread when asked to give examples for all this. I grant the Kuro plotlines don't fit in a way that I really understand, but other than those, I'm flummoxed about where all the interruptions and abortive cliffhangers are. People keep saying "nothing is happening!" but... a lot has happened.

I think a lot of the missing info is just for one simple reason: We haven't had anything from Reiichi's POV yet, and that's where all the missing info is. He's an impenetrable box for both Uta and Kaoru. But whatever the reason, isn't phrasing it as "some authorial masterplan" just kind of unnecessarily hostile? This isn't a particularly extreme or odd story; it's not warranted to sarcastically act like the people engaged with it must be waiting for some grand, Lost-esque twist that may never come.

karp posted:

OK, again, people making this point have kinda dropped the thread when asked to give examples for all this. I grant the Kuro plotlines don't fit in a way that I really understand, but other than those, I'm flummoxed about where all the interruptions and abortive cliffhangers are. People keep saying "nothing is happening!" but... a lot has happened.

From top of my head:

After stalling for few chapters, Kaoru finally asks Reiichi about his cheating and Reiichi gets phone call at this exact moment and uses that chance to bail from conversation faster than light. Kaoru doesn't even attempt to stop him and it's not brought back again ever since.

Uta finally is about to confess to Kaoru about her feelings. Then it ends on a cliffhanger and for few chapters we don't know how things went until we're given a very short few lines summary, blink you'll miss it (I did) in Uta's thoughts. Something that was presented as the most important thread in the story and what kept most people interested in reading it is not even shown and treated as a after thought to the story. Uta's confession should have a huge effect that seriously shakes the story, but we didn't even see it happen and it didn't really affect the plot until Uta forced Kaoru to actually acknowledge her feelings. Uta confronting Kaoru is probably only plot thread that was set up and actually delivered on next chapter (or at all).

I think a lot of the missing info is just for one simple reason: We haven't had anything from Reiichi's POV yet, and that's where all the missing info is.

And the one who decided to not give us his point of view is no other than author writing the story. So yes, the reason is "simple".

But whatever the reason, isn't phrasing it as "some authorial masterplan" just kind of unnecessarily hostile? This isn't a particularly extreme or odd story; it's not warranted to sarcastically act like the people engaged with it must be waiting for some grand, Lost-esque twist that may never come.

Withdrawn information and constant cliffhangers that are never resolved/takes many chapters to even be addressed again to keep readers interested in what happened is a classic tactic of mystery stories. Nothing has to be satisfactory explained or resolved, because the intrigue of how it all will end is what keeps people reading. The issue with that is because series heavily relies on us not knowing the exact details and having to understand events based on our assumptions and interpretations, once those details will be given and they turn out to not satisfactory explain events or behavior of character, then whole story will turn out to not make much sense and re-reading it knowing those information will make it unreadable. So yes, calling it a "masterplan" is pretty fitting, since at the end of the day the story's impact rely on all those things author set up to properly fall into places once they're revealed. If answers to those questions will end up being unsatisfactory, calling it a grand, Lost-esque twist that never came would be a very appropriate way to name it.

last edited at Nov 19, 2019 9:30PM

And fair enough, but I don't think pointing to a mysterious Real Job analyzing narratives is very helpful, either. If people think someone here is wrong and make an argument supporting that, any outside authority any of us have isn't really relevant, and trying to invoke it isn't adding anything.

In that case I was specifically responding to being told, once again, that “this is how stories work.” I wasn’t refuting any particular argument about the story. But I’m quite familiar with how stories work.

EDIT: While not a cliffhanger per se, the end of Chapter 24-beginning of Chapter 25 implies that the encounter between Uta and Risako will be significant in some way (maybe at last some insight into the Reiichi cheating conundrum).

But what actually gets accomplished is that Risako learns that Uta is moving out, and Uta learns that Reiichi and Risako dated in high school—new information for each of them, but all of it well-known to readers, and of little or no apparent significance to the recipients of the new information. So what is the point of these two characters meeting by a random coincidence?

EDIT2: I would add Kaoru’s accident to the “mechanically interrupted confrontation” list, and the limited post-accident amnesia is another. It’s the sort of thing that happens in stories all the time as a MAJOR EVENT, of course, but such developments generally don’t lay fallow for dozens of chapters before being mentioned again, either.

last edited at Nov 19, 2019 10:49PM

i cant wait for this whole thing to be over and uta comes back i could give a rats ass about risako, reiichi, and kaoru's dynamic

i cant wait for this whole thing to be over and uta comes back i could give a rats ass about risako, reiichi, and kaoru's dynamic

Author should rook at ayako asuka to see how to resolve conflict

i cant wait for this whole thing to be over and uta comes back i could give a rats ass about risako, reiichi, and kaoru's dynamic

Author should rook at ayako asuka to see how to resolve conflict

you make me giggle

Uta finally is about to confess to Kaoru about her feelings. Then it ends on a cliffhanger and for few chapters we don't know how things went until we're given a very short few lines summary, blink you'll miss it (I did) in Uta's thoughts. Something that was presented as the most important thread in the story and what kept most people interested in reading it is not even shown and treated as a after thought to the story. Uta's confession should have a huge effect that seriously shakes the story, but we didn't even see it happen and it didn't really affect the plot until Uta forced Kaoru to actually acknowledge her feelings. Uta confronting Kaoru is probably only plot thread that was set up and actually delivered on next chapter (or at all).

Well see, the first thing is, it's NOT true that Uta's confession was "what kept most people interested in reading it." I can absolutely see that if you were looking at the manga that way, you'd be frustrated. I... honestly don't understand seeing the manga that way, but fine.

Uta confessed and then nothing happened because Kaoru wanted to ignore it and because Uta could stop herself from giving Kaoru an out. This really isn't the kind of manga where a confession happens and a bomb drops; it's the kind of manga where people make baby steps forward with a hundred little conversations because they've all been socialized by Japanese culture to keep from making waves. This is the most interesting thing about it, for me. Even Uta, who WAS affected massively by the experience, got an ellipsis and not a big boom moment.

The author could definitely overplay their hand here, for me, too. Kaoru's passivity could cross the line where I get sick of it, and it's the same thing happening over and over. But she IS moving... getting more fed up and lost as she loses her excuses, and she realizes her search for external reasons to justify whatever path forward she's going to be on is pathetic and empty. It's not just the same thing over and over.

Withdrawn information and constant cliffhangers that are never resolved/takes many chapters to even be addressed again to keep readers interested in what happened is a classic tactic of mystery stories. Nothing has to be satisfactory explained or resolved, because the intrigue of how it all will end is what keeps people reading. The issue with that is because series heavily relies on us not knowing the exact details and having to understand events based on our assumptions and interpretations, once those details will be given and they turn out to not satisfactory explain events or behavior of character, then whole story will turn out to not make much sense and re-reading it knowing those information will make it unreadable. So yes, calling it a "masterplan" is pretty fitting, since at the end of the day the story's impact rely on all those things author set up to properly fall into places once they're revealed. If answers to those questions will end up being unsatisfactory, calling it a grand, Lost-esque twist that never came would be a very appropriate way to name it.

This is just such a weird take to me, I can barely even parse it. This isn't a big mystery; it's a conflict that's mostly from Kaoru's point of view and about her more than it's about anything else. This story might a well be named "Character Based Not Plot Based," so I just really don't see these mysteries. The author is doing one thing: leaving the question open about whether or not Reiichi is cheating because Kaoru herself doesn't know and the story is about how Kaoru deals with this situation. We're sitting with the tension as Kaoru tries to address it without actually making any waves, and that's not working.

Nothing doesn't make sense; nothing is setting up a grand twist. This isn't some complex twists and turns, here. This is one thing we don't know because we're supposed to be sympathizing with Kaoru. This is one reason I think reading chapter by chapter is detrimental especially to this story, and reading it all at once helps: It keeps you from seeing cliffhangers and expecting big reveals.

Example of gratuitously withheld information:

We have a very incomplete sense of the previous relationship between Uta and Kaoru, and in fact of Uta’s character generally. We’re told early on that Uta used to be a bright, energetic child, but until recently (just prior to the start of the story) she has been very withdrawn and depressed, and she still is to some extent.

Moreover, Kaoru “feels guilty” toward Uta. Both of these elements are likely tied to the parents’ divorce (and perhaps to Kaoru’s mother’s death), but how exactly we are not told. None of this is about Kaoru’s confusion about Reiichi’s fidelity, but is simply information that is well-known to the characters but not to the readers because reasons.

The handling of Uta’s initial confession is highly peculiar simply on structural grounds. Chapter 14 ends in the middle of the scene the story has been building towards from the beginning with Uta in the very process of confessing to Kaoru. The next begins with a time skip of several days and only indirect references to the confession (by Kaoru) at the end of the chapter. This is a “mystery” only in the sense that the audience wants to know wtf happened and isn’t told (briefly and indirectly) until two chapters later, with a pointless Kuro chapter intervening. In fact, Kuro asks for the details of what happened, and Uta says she’ll give her the details later—the exact same answer Uta gives her concerning the “what happened between your two families?” question.

In other words, these aren’t merely irrelevant questions that are subordinated to the “character development” of Kaoru, etc. They’re information that the author is specifically withholding from us, whether they meet someone’s definition of “mystery” or not.

last edited at Nov 22, 2019 7:44AM

In my opinion on the next bow of uta you will have all the information and flashback since she is going back to her parents necessary on the past of uta...
It is the author's style to disseminate information, to let us think that..... every time, it is frustrating but in a way his journey.
Currently we spend a lot of chapters on kaoru and we discover little by little things and it is not finished, the same procedure will happen for uta.

In my opinion on the next bow of uta you will have all the information and flashback since she is going back to her parents necessary on the past of uta...
It is the author's style to disseminate information, to let us think that..... every time, it is frustrating but in a way his journey.
Currently we spend a lot of chapters on kaoru and we discover little by little things and it is not finished, the same procedure will happen for uta.

You may well be right. But as you say, the ratio of "we're about to find out" chapters followed immediately by "actually finding out" is . . .not high.

It feels like the author keeps a lot of concrete information to mark the occasion during the real revelations!
There we are clearly focused on the kaoru arc on the present and soon its past and the situation after this arc will not even be solved yet.....
Then the same thing or uta will have to adjust and acclimatize to her new situation with revelations about her past and why she is so in love with kaoru.
Then I think that if the two girls solve their respective problems, what feelings will they then have at that moment? the emptiness of not seeing each other anymore? going on with their lives on their own?
From where we will have all the information and the respective family situations calmed down (or not) the author could end this with a romance or a sweet ending between them.
What is for sure is that this manga is not about to be finished and will last with many chapters.....
I am sure that if the author correctly masters the key events that happen, a complete final proofreading will make a very, very good emotional manga.

last edited at Nov 22, 2019 9:54AM

You may well be right. But as you say, the ratio of "we're about to find out" chapters followed immediately by "actually finding out" is . . .not high.

That's not the point of the story. The point is, we see these characters slowly growing, and that's exactly the reason why some people read this.
It's not only about solving these questions. Maybe some readers just want to see the answers to these questions, and maybe this story is not for them.
But that doesn't make the story bad.

Sigh. I'm so tired of those conversations. That's exactly the reason I stopped reading manga and bothering with following conversation, because both were tiring and just not going anywhere. But fine, I'll humor you.

karp posted:

Well see, the first thing is, it's NOT true that Uta's confession was "what kept most people interested in reading it." I can absolutely see that if you were looking at the manga that way, you'd be frustrated. I... honestly don't understand seeing the manga that way, but fine.

Except the literal title of the manga is "Even if this string won't connect" (referring to the red string of fate) and the first chapter is all about Uta being depressed over her love for Kaoru. Also the official english subtitle by mangaka is "secret crush on my sister". Literally the second freaking page, the title drop, the entire hook of the series is presented as a Uta's love story. To say the story initial premise isn't about Uta's one-sided love is pretty disingenuous. For someone preaching how this story is better read as a whole, you sure forgot how exactly it started.

This really isn't the kind of manga where a confession happens and a bomb drops;

The thing is, by the way the premise was structured, Uta's confession should be the most important thing happening in the entire manga. I'm not expecting to see some huge drama and changes to status quo every chapter. I read enough of those mangas. Honestly I'm sick of them, because most of the time the only reason it happens is to shake status quo and nothing else, it doesn't feel organic. No, what I'm saying is that it's story about Uta's unrequited love for Kaoru. Her confessing her feelings to Karou can't go well. That's why it should be the last thing she does, but when she do it should matter. It really didn't. And even if I'm overexaggerating the importance of it, it still should have actually been shown since it's supposedly the basis of entire premise of the manga.

Also this author mastered the art of keeping the status quo as unchanged as possible. Well if you're happy with very small and barely noticeable changes and can handle reading something like that for many chapters. More power to you. To most people it makes for a boring read. Sure it's not that nothing happens, but what happens should be significant enough to keep readers invested. But it isn't. Maybe the 100 small conversations and baby steps is how it works in real life, but it's fiction. I know people love talk about work feeling realistic, but true be told, most of life is boring af, so writing something truly realistically is just no engaging. I and what most people are probably fed up with is the fact there weren't many meaningful changes in the story so far and we're 27 chapters in. I'm sorry, but writing about how for the umpteenth time character doesn't do something don't make for a interesting story.

And sure it's not always wrong to either withhold information or have character not do something, but it's all about balance. Doing that few times is fine, but if all story ever does is that and moments when audience actually learn something or character does something is exception to the rule, that's when it starts to become a problem. Many people kept insisting that eventually we'll learn everything we need to know and read waiting for that moment, so everything will finally click. And that's exactly what I meant that even if story doesn't have enough going for it, if there are things people are interested in learning a answer to, they'ill keep reading, regardless how good or bad story is.

This isn't a big mystery; it's a conflict that's mostly from Kaoru's point of view and about her more than it's about anything else. This story might a well be named "Character Based Not Plot Based," so I just really don't see these mysteries. The author is doing one thing: leaving the question open about whether or not Reiichi is cheating because Kaoru herself doesn't know and the story is about how Kaoru deals with this situation. We're sitting with the tension as Kaoru tries to address it without actually making any waves, and that's not working.

Em no. First of all, as I already shown, it was supposed to be Uta's story. Entire first volume and majority of second one is shown from Uta's perspective and the whole cheating bs doesn't start until chapter 10. It's a... mystery to me how you can consider Kaoru and that stupid plot line a main focus of the story. Especially since it's not like cheating gets so much more focus than everything else and few times it resurfaces, it gets forgotten just as quickly. It's not like it's all Kaoru is worrying about. In fact, we are barely shown Kaoru worrying about it, for supposedly main focus of entire story.

Second, not once I said this story is plot based. Yes, it's based on characters and we're supposed to be following their development and changes. The thing is, in order to do that we first need to actually understand the characters. Who they are and who they were. And that's where the whole withheld information becomes a issue. We are clearly shown there's 2 set of characters. Kaoru, Uta and Reiichi before something vague and mysterious happened in the past and after that. Those characters are completely different from each other. When I tried to have conversation about it before, and complained how Kaoru's character is inconsistent, I was told, that it's because I was talking about "old" Kaoru and it's the "current" Kaoru. And that's the issue. Entire premise is based on fallout and aftermath of something that happened in the past that fundamentally changed all 3 characters and is still haunting them to this day and we, as a audience, don't know what it was about. And it's not like we don't need it to understand them, because those events are constantly referenced in story. So say what you want, but in order to really understand the current situation characters are in, why they changed, how they changed and what can be done about it, we must know what happened. How are we supposed to have any constructive conversation or fully understand any changes and implications to characters, without even knowing the whole picture of situation they are in right now. It's not like I read it specifically for mystery or put huge importance on knowing those events. It was author themselves who did that and build entire story around it. They are crucial if you want to know why things are the way they are and why characters made the choices they did, so if once those information are finally revealed and they don't make sense, this story will collapse in on itself. The truth of the matter is, majority of conversations people had here were about their assumptions and guesses, instead what we actually know. That's saying something. It might not be a mystery story, but hell, it sure is written like one.

Third, I have separated issue about entire cheating thing, but the thing is, initially, I actually liked how it was handled. Reiichi was clearly feeling guilty about it and seemed to realize he was fucking up. He wanted to confront Kaoru about it now that cat was out of the bag. Kaoru's feigning amnesia to avoid talking about it wasn't bad either. It actually felt like something someone would do in that situation. The issue is everything that happens afterwards. The whole issue is basically swept under the rug. It should have been focus for next chapters, when people are invested in it. It could even end up with Kaoru trying to confront Reiichi and failing. We get some break and then she goes back to confronting him again. Instead the thread is dropped completely, we get sidetracked with different stuff, then when Kaoru finally remembers "Oh right, my husband might be cheating on me or something" and despite being the coward she is, she finds guts to ask him 1 fucking phone call and the thread is dropped again for many chapters. Instead of audience reacting to it as "Oh, she is confronting him, will we learn the truth!?" it was more like "Oh right. There was that. Will we finally learn anything about it?" Oh also. That phone call. What it was about again? See where the issue is? Just mentioning something and not following on it at all is... not how the story works.

Nothing doesn't make sense; nothing is setting up a grand twist. This isn't some complex twists and turns, here. This is one thing we don't know because we're supposed to be sympathizing with Kaoru. This is one reason I think reading chapter by chapter is detrimental especially to this story, and reading it all at once helps: It keeps you from seeing cliffhangers and expecting big reveals.

Also you keep saying that we should read entire thing in one go, but you constantly avoid addressing the whole high school girl romance side story issue. Checking again now, their existence feels so random and intrusive. Having someone for Uta to talk to is 1 thing, but their whole storyline is so far removed from what is going in actual main story, it's astonishing. If author liked them so much and wanted to write about them, they should just make new series about them, because as it stands, all they accomplish is take focus away from the actually important events and dilute the story even more than it already is, as well as just making the already slow pacing even worse. If you're not interested in them at all they just feel like padding.

You know. I really wanted to read this series for character development. Uta's character development. Her angst. Her story. I didn't mind some distractions here and there. I didn't mind that there might been some past history we initially don't know about. But after Kaoru's accident, it felt like story just lost focus and become a mess. New elements were constantly introduced to be dropped next chapter. Direction was all over the place. Things were build up to then never deliver. Barely anything was explained and only more things were added. I really liked Uta's character so I tried to read it for her, but once author cut out her confession from story, I said enough.

I remembered about another thing that was set up and then forgotten, but wasn't sure where to put it. Reiichi wanted to ask Uta something, but he backed off. Again, stuff like that is fine every now and then, but when it's almost everything we ever get, that's when it becomes a issue.

last edited at Nov 22, 2019 12:39PM

You may well be right. But as you say, the ratio of "we're about to find out" chapters followed immediately by "actually finding out" is . . .not high.

That's not the point of the story. The point is, we see these characters slowly growing, and that's exactly the reason why some people read this.
It's not only about solving these questions. Maybe some readers just want to see the answers to these questions, and maybe this story is not for them.
But that doesn't make the story bad.

This is ridiculous--if those things are irrelevant to the supposed "point of the story," why bring them up at all? If what we care about is the actions of the characters going forward, there's no obvious need for any mystery about their past.

If we're supposed to be focused on "these characters slowly growing," why are we not given the background information so we can see what they are growing from and to fully understand how and why they are "growing into" something else?

(Again with the hypothetical speculations about "some readers." I will note that the "that's how stories work" lectures about this series have changed from early on, when the argument was "don't you understand that stories work by withholding information in order to create suspense?" to "why would anyone even think a story like this would withhold information to create suspense?")

This is ridiculous--if those things are irrelevant to the supposed "point of the story," why bring them up at all? If what we care about is the actions of the characters going forward, there's no obvious need for any mystery about their past.

Because we need a strong reason of why Uta was living with Reiichi and Kaoru instead of her parents, despite the fact that she clearly suffers there too?
If the family situation wasn't mentioned at all, someone would very reasonably think it's utterly stupid that Uta lives with them.

If we're supposed to be focused on "these characters slowly growing," why are we not given the background information so we can see what they are growing from and to fully understand how and why they are "growing into" something else?

You don't always need a full background of a character to read about their progression.
Development timing doesn't always start from the very distant past to now.
One thing led to another in Uta's situation. Her broken family led her live with Kaoru and grow her feelings more.
However, we're reading about a story of how she deals with it now.
When Uta first lives with the couple, she is aware of her feelings but she is still.able to manage them. Then her feelings get too much and she finally knows she only has no choice but to leave. All this is a slow process, and you can't have a character quickly go through that. Otherwise it won't be convincing that her feelings were as intense/serious as the author's trying to depict.

Same for Kaoru. Uta had to leave for her development to start. The whole point of her character is that she always avoids uncomfortable situations to the very end. You can't expect to see any drastic change in just two chapters. That would be bad writing.
Also these two characters have an intertwined dynamic. Uta pushes Kaoru to change. I could go on about this specifically, but I've said it in previous posts and I don't want this to be that long.

It's like, you're reading a story about a depressed person. We get hints about their past because it's mandatory, since we know there must be a reason of their depression. But the story focuses on their day to day struggles and how they're trying to deal with it now. How depression affects their lives now and how certain situations are different for them now.
There are different angles a story can focus on, depending on what the author is trying to say. In this example, if the author wanted to show the effects of, for example, an abusive father, they would focus more on the past. If the author wants to focus more on how people are dealing with their depression in daily tasks, they wouldn't add as many background details, but focus on the present more and the background details would be more disperse.
The first narration is about abusive families, the second is about moving forward.

We're not going to get the details about these questions quick. If this bothers you, then yes the story is not for you. No matter how much someone explains why apples are tasty, if you don't like them you don't.
But that's subjective and doesn't mean the story is bad.

last edited at Nov 22, 2019 1:48PM

I think readers need to understand that this is the author's vision and that he assumes it, he knows very well that he could give much more detail but he doesn't do it consciously. It leaves a lot of room for imagination and interpretation and I like that.
So it can't please everyone, I myself had moments of frustration because things weren't moving fast enough but now I really appreciate the story in retrospect, and I know we're getting to the part where things like the past are beginning to be explained.

Stannis posted:

I think readers need to understand that this is the author's vision and that he assumes it, he knows very well that he could give much more detail but he doesn't do it consciously.

No shit.

It leaves a lot of room for imagination and interpretation and I like that.

Oh yea. The age-old technique of not thinking your story through and letting your audience fill in the blanks, so it'll makes sense to them, while taking all the credit for it. I heard about it too.

We talk about it again at the end of the manga, there are lots of mangas where everything happens in the first 10 chapters not this one and it suits me.
I specify that I like both type of narration, you must not like nettaigyo wa yuki no kogareru either, right?

Stannis posted:

there are lots of mangas where everything happens in the first 10 chapters not this one

I never said everything has to happen in first 10 chapters. Good to know you didn't understand me at all.

you must not like nettaigyo wa yuki no kogareru either, right?

I love it. It's well-written exploration of feelings and development between two main characters, without ever losing focus. Unlike this one.

Stannis posted:

there are lots of mangas where everything happens in the first 10 chapters not this one

I never said everything has to happen in first 10 chapters. Good to know you didn't understand me at all.

you must not like nettaigyo wa yuki no kogareru either, right?

I love it. It's well-written exploration of feelings and development between two main characters, without ever losing focus. Unlike this one.

Totally agree. But some people just habitually make up things and project them onto other readers.

last edited at Nov 22, 2019 11:01PM

Stannis posted:

there are lots of mangas where everything happens in the first 10 chapters not this one

I never said everything has to happen in first 10 chapters. Good to know you didn't understand me at all.

you must not like nettaigyo wa yuki no kogareru either, right?

I love it. It's well-written exploration of feelings and development between two main characters, without ever losing focus. Unlike this one.

Well no, this manga also hides a lot of mysteries if we follow your reasoning, how come konatsu and koyuki are like that? what are their past? what are their feelings? his father is not just absent for business he is almost never there, is this realist? her mother ? why don't we know if konatsu is in love or not with koyuki? why koyuki doesn't ask what konatsu feels like ?very happy first part and we move on to pure drama, they talked to each other at the beginning and on the last chapters they talked less than on the very first one, why koyuki under the guise of I don't know what of lonely ment a konatsu ? why kaede does anything? the path of koyuki ,why konatsu doesn't know about it from the father ,the brother or in the school that koyuki goes to the university of tokyo? We are very far from having all the details and the author does cliffhanger just as much.And we can talk about the same tricks when, for example, kaede wants to ask konatsu how she feels if koyuki goes to university, or the good old phone ring that interrupts everything or the fact that she happens to meet kaede and koyuki, or the message she doesn't send when she's on a school trip to Tokyo because she falls asleep...in short the same strings as we see in all mangas.
In short, it's just as disconnected as a story and there are a lot of unanswered questions, if we analyze it in your own way, except that I also love this novel, which also leaves plenty of room for imagination because if you know where the story is going, please tell me because we're at the same point as the unrequieted love...
It just seems like you hate manga, kaoru and nothing else… and that you wanted the story to go in a different direction...
The author does not require you to read his work now it is he who proposes his way of doing things, which is realistic for me on the changes and evolution of personalities over time and it is not up to you or me to decide that he should do things differently, it is his work, his story... your way of judging is borderline is like criticizing someone who loves a star wars instead of a kill bill, they are excellent films that have a totally different narrative.....

last edited at Nov 23, 2019 7:47AM

Nev, it’s obvious they don’t understand the concept of focus (or just don’t care about it) and are never going to stop making excuses for this one and projecting stupid suppositions onto those who don’t.

Nev, it’s obvious they don’t understand the concept of focus (or just don’t care about it) and are never going to stop making excuses for this one and projecting stupid suppositions onto those who don’t.

You know, you can complain about something you don't like without being an ass to others, right?
Everyone can be a "professional critic" and a writer. Your opinion is not science, so miss that condescending tone, because you're talking fancy words but actually not saying much.

Nev, it’s obvious they don’t understand the concept of focus (or just don’t care about it) and are never going to stop making excuses for this one and projecting stupid suppositions onto those who don’t.

You know, you can complain about something you don't like without being an ass to others, right?
Everyone can be a "professional critic" and a writer. Your opinion is not science, so miss that condescending tone, because you're talking fancy words but actually not saying much.

LOL