My point is, in what way did Sakurako get to where she is by hard work and effort, rather than natural talent and ability? And how is anyone supposed to identify with that level of capability?

I think... you're looking at it the wrong way.

The idea that effort is unnecessary when you have natural talent doesn't hold water. For example, think of all the great boxing champions in history: do you really believe that they didn't need to train just because they were so talented? That they didn't follow harsh training regimes, just like any other boxer? That they just waltzed to the ring on the day of the fight and defeated their opponents without even breaking a sweat - simply because of talent? The idea is preposterous.

Cooking is hard work. If you're very talented, the dishes you make will be really good. If you don't, they will be... not so good. But the amount of effort involved is the same.

Household chores are hard work. If you're talented, you'll clean the house, do the laundry, wash the dishes and do everything that is needed with sparkling results! If you're not talented, the result will be more messy. But the amount of effort involved is the same.

Actually, don't take this the wrong way, but... it's even a little bit offensive for all women whose work is running or managing their family's home that you claim that, if they do their job well, they don't have any merit - because it's just talent at work, with no effort involved.

OF COURSE Sakurako is a hard worker, geez!!! Effort and talent are different things! Talented people may achieve better results, but, to get to that point, they need to work HARD! Sakurako likes cooking and doing household chores; she likes helping people in need; she will happily assist her friends and teachers and schoolmates in their work, even if she's not under any obligation of doing so. These are merits! It all tells us that she's an incredibly diligent worker who's not afraid of any task, no matter how big, and in fact is always glad to get busy because she likes raising a sweat on her brow. This is extraordinarily praiseworthy. Claiming that she never has to put in any effort at anything because she's oh-so-gifted is... I dunno... beyond absurd.

Except Sakurako doesn't need to study, because she is just naturally gifted and reads for a hobby.

She can master any dish on first try, so she doesn't put any more effort into it than a dish someone made a 100 times in their sleep.

Sakurako doesn't have any trouble multi-tasking housework and in fact works because she is bored, not because she likes to work.

No matter how you spin it, compared to a normal human she invests far less effort into everything with 10 times better results. That's because her talents are portrayed as super-human, just like Kasumi's monstrous appetite. It's not supposed to be realistic or relatable. You're supposed to think "Whoa that's amazing and crazy", just like Kasumi does.

What makes Sakurako relatable is her dorkiness, how she is scared of anything horror related, how she worries about her body image and the way she acts around her family. Maybe you are the one looking at things the wrong way?

EDIT: Let me put it this way: To be a hard worker, the work has to be actually hard. If it is not, then it's just work.

last edited at May 18, 2019 4:54PM

Actually, don't take this the wrong way, but... it's even a little bit offensive for all women whose work is running or managing their family's home that you claim that, if they do their job well, they don't have any merit - because it's just talent at work, with no effort involved.

@Fairypixie, you're wrong. It's not a little bit offensive. It's very, very offensive.

What did this thread turn into after that one war of words I'm planning a video rendition of? The Dynasty Reader equivalent to Bosnia?

last edited at May 18, 2019 5:58PM

Whoever said anything about her work having no merit anyway? Being effortless does not mean the results don't have merits. Sakurako is undoubtedly impressive at everything she does. I'm kinda envious tbh.

Though I find that line of thinking baffling... is this the 19th century? Being a housewife is not a profession and doing housework is not a job. The modern woman goes to an 8 hour work day at ther real job and then does housework on top of that. As do all single men as well. I find it rather "offensive" to see being a housewife as a good thing or to look at housework as something beyond the bare minimum of daily life.

If taking care of children was involved that is different of course. Children take a lot of attention and energy out of a person. Parental leave exists for a reason. But until Sakurako perfects iPS cells I don't see her having to worry about (or enjoy) motherhood yet.

I am convinced. Sakurako is not an amazing human being with unparalleled talents that inspire awe and desire in me. Instead she's a plain boring person of no particular consequence if not for her relationship with Kasumi. Pardon me if I offended. I will never again find talent a wonderful thing.

This wasn't how they did it in those dime novels! Ah, modern times...

Yeah, and, in the olden times, girls didn't fall in love with other girls either.

That too is a new twist of the old romantic novel pattern.

Oh I don't know, are we sure there weren't dime novels about evil sophisticated lesbians seducing wide-eyed country girls? lol

But, seriously, the formula (as Fairypixie24 put it) has only a few basic elements: a simple, innocent, plain-looking girl; her desired one; one or more rivals who are attractive and stylish and everything the MC girl is not; a plot full of melodramatic romance; and a happy end where the MC girl wins the love of her desired one. This can be adapted to any sexual preference. It works the same way whether the desired one is a boy or a girl.

Have you read Kase-san? It's a fine example. Yamada and Kase are prime types of the MC girl and her desired one. Kase is tall and beautiful, with an amazing bod, big breasts and a natural magnetism that attracts people to her. Furthermore, she's strong, assertive, athletic and the ace of the Track and Field Club: she way more cool that any of the jock boys at the school, and in fact can beat them at their own game like a boss. She's, as someone puts it, the "perfect match both for males and females" (meaning that she's everything boys dream of in a gf and everything girls dream of in a bf). Yamada, otoh, has nothing special about her: she's as plain as plain can be. However, in chapter 1 of the manga, we find that Kase has fallen in love with her. O_o How come??? Well, y'see, Yamada came to school after hours, during evenings and weekends, to take care of the plants and flowers in the school grounds. Kase, on her way to club practice, saw her every day hard at work weeding the gardens and watering the flowers... and fell for her kindness (caring for plants is a way of being kind!) and her diligence (gardening is heavy work!).

In later chapters, the author tries to develop the issue of Kase's feelings a bit more... but you get the general idea, right? This is like the distilled essence of the romantic fantasy that's proven to be so astoundingly popular with the female readership since the 19th century. It's something you can find everywhere in contemporary fiction aimed at girls - and of course yuri manga is no exception.

Oh I don't know, are we sure there weren't dime novels about evil sophisticated lesbians seducing wide-eyed country girls? lol

If there were, I totally want to read them!

Oh btw, just for the record, I love Kase-san to bits.

Oh I don't know, are we sure there weren't dime novels about evil sophisticated lesbians seducing wide-eyed country girls? lol

If there were, I totally want to read them!

Oh? Even if the evil lesbian is defeated at the end by some priggish little toff who redeems the poor misguided victim and takes her as his bride? (⁰͡ ͜ʖ⁰͡ )

Naaah that won't happen: everyone knows the evil sexy lesbian always wins in the end!

(And if she doesn't, I'll just ignore the dumbass ending and write my own and post it on fanfiction.net! So there!)

This is like the distilled essence of the romantic fantasy that's proven to be so astoundingly popular with the female readership since the 19th century. It's something you can find everywhere in contemporary fiction aimed at girls - and of course yuri manga is no exception.

I'd say. It's not just A Room For Two; it's Kase-San, as you wrote before, and also Marimite, A Kiss for the Petals, Strawberry Panic and a thousand more. And a huge chunk of the rest follows the "redemption by love" formula à la First Love Sisters, where the desired one's breathtaking awesomeness has become warped in some way... and the MC must heal her with the power of love before feelings can be returned.

And by a curious coincidence (or not) these also happen to be the most commonly used and overused themes in heterosexual shoujo manga. What can I say? We girls sure are sticklers for our favorite tropes.

What did this thread turn into after that one war of words I'm planning a video rendition of? The Dynasty Reader equivalent to Bosnia?

Why would you say that? White Rose, BugDevil, Nene, rgv and myself, we are just having a lot of fun analyzing the story from a wide range of differing perspectives and points of view. As far as I can tell, unless I missed some messages, nobody has been rude or obnoxious towards anyone - or breached proper forum etiquette in any way.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but none of the things all of you mentioned remotely apply to A Room For Two. That formula might be a bit defective.

@Fairypixie24 I think BV was refering to the "offensive" comment. That was a bit over the top.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but none of the things all of you mentioned remotely apply to A Room For Two.

It must be as you say, then. You are misunderstanding. You don't understand this manga.
Or do you perhaps want to elaborate a little?

And by a curious coincidence (or not) these also happen to be the most commonly used and overused themes in heterosexual shoujo manga.

Well, the readerships are the same. The Japanese girls who read "normal" shoujo manga and the girls who every month buy Comic Yuri Hime come all from the same fanbase. It's no surprise that we find common themes.

last edited at May 21, 2019 12:15AM

Not that it really matters, but isn't this published in a seinen magazine?

If you mean Monthly Birz, it went bung last year. It's no longer published.
Futaribeya is a web manga, these days.

The mag catered mainly to the otaku demographics.

I found another good example in a manga that was just uploaded:
≀

≀
Then Nagi (the blonde) replies like this:
≀

≀
As it turns out, Chi-chan (who is a gloomy, unkempt writer living an otaku lifestyle in a room that looks like a garbage dump) has won herself the worshipful admiration of Nagi (a statuesque, stylish blonde belle) with the only book she ever published. So Nagi now wants to live with her and be her devoted servant, cooking and taking care of domestic chores and (it hasn't been mentioned yet but we all see it coming, yes we do) providing tender and attentive sexual services if Chi-chan feels like it.

Of course, to bring tension into the story, there must be some kinda token problem with the whole situation... and indeed, a problem rears its head when Nagi proudly declares herself a stalker! Oh no, taihen desu, stalking is bad! How can Chi-chan accept Nagi in her life now??? However, we, savvy readers that we are, can tell that this small hurdle will be overcome very quickly and very simply... as soon as Chi-chan realizes that when a gorgeous buxom stunner comes to you saying that she's crazy about you and wants to be your loving servant from now on, that's not called a stalker, that's called a dream come true. (˵ ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°˵)♡*:･

Okay at this point we are just summarizing and discussing other stories... Maybe it would be better to move that (rather rash) analyses of the manga's second chapter to the correct comment thread? Nezchan's probably already blowing a fuse as is.

In the first place that story has nothing remotely to do with the formular @Fairypixie24 mentioned.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but none of the things all of you mentioned remotely apply to A Room For Two.

It must be as you say, then. You are misunderstanding. You don't understand this manga.
Or do you perhaps want to elaborate a little?

Whoa how did I miss this snarky comment? I already explained why none of it applies to A Room For Two in my like 4 other replies before that one. Not that anyone is forced to read those.

Sakurako is not like the girls in those novels.
Kasumi is not like the guys in those novels.
The reverse is also true.

I think that means the formula doesn't apply.

last edited at May 21, 2019 12:17PM

I already explained why none of it applies to A Room For Two in my like 4 other replies before that one. Not that anyone is forced to read those.

I did read your previous replies, and even supported and praised some of the points you made, remember?

However, if you are so tired of this discussion that all you can write is one-liners, perhaps it's time for you to move on to other threads and other debates.

I already explained why none of it applies to A Room For Two in my like 4 other replies before that one. Not that anyone is forced to read those.

I did read your previous replies, and even supported and praised some of the points you made, remember?

However, if you are so tired of this discussion that all you can write is one-liners, perhaps it's time for you to move on to other threads and other debates.

Why, sorry. I was under the impression that I already made my point so I tried not to be repetitive and just limited to essence of it. But if you insist.

Let's use @Fairypixie24's formula modified with your assertions to "modern changes".
The girl has to be:
-Plain
-Unpopular
-good of heart
-a hard worker
-be poor/lower class (at least out of the boy's reach social standing wise)
Christian (outdated thankfully)
-have house working skills
-See the dark secrets of the boy and assure him that those are good things
-Have many rivals that are obviously worse than her

The boy (who for these purposes has to be Kasumi I aguess):
-Rich/upper class (at least out of the girl's reach)
-Super popular
-Pretty much a bland card-board cutout of eye-candy
-No decision making skills at all (gets swayed by rivals regularly after all)
-Has some dark secret/unknown side to him that nobody would understand except the heroine

Let's break this down then. First of all you really have to push it to make these roles apply whatsoever.
Sakurako is far from the average, poor, unpopular girl. We already established that she is outrageously social, liked by everyone and could get literally any guy to fall for her if she even remotely tried (but we know that she was lesbian from the start). I will just be nice and assume you don't actually mean Sakurako looks plain and just tried to compare her to Kasumi herself who at least in-universe is often treated like a more stunning beauty.
Sakurako is not out of Kasumi's reach socially at all. Literally the only thing that interferes with them being a good match from the start is that they are both girls. That automatically makes it harder for them to be considered a match, but if we ignore the gender barrier, there is really no difference between them.
Being good of heart and having house working skills are such unbelievably generic qualities that they barely even bear mention for a main character, but let's check those point off. They indeed apply to Sakurako. Hard worker? I suppose, if we just take her accomplishments as "hard work" then sure. Being an absolute prodigy in everything really decreases the hard worker image though.
Though she is far from pure and rather dirty-minded and even somewhat creepy. I would say she has more of a "secret side/dark side" than Kasumi in fact lol
As for rivals, not like she ever had any serious competition, but those few girls who got a rejection from Kasumi could as well have been good matches for Kasumi, we will never know. Hina barely counts, as she got little sister zoned immediately and her crush is mostly treated as a joke. Kasumi isn't even interested in romance, so there is no conflict.

Kasumi is the real issue here. None of those points apply... like at all. The only thing making her stand out from the crowd or desirable on first glance are her looks. She is popular for those... I guess? But nobody is wild enough about her to really pursue her except Sakurako. It's not like she is a "school prince", a company CEO's rich daughter or in any other way out of Sakurako's reach.
As established, she is also far from social. She can barely be bothered to talk to anyone other than the closest people to her and has almost zero friends. And the few she has are actually all Sakurako's friends that she befriended through her as well. The definition of popular might be a bit skewed here I feel...
I don't like those old romance novels and how they portray the desired guy, let's just say Kasumi has 100 times more personality than 20 of them combined. She also always knows what she wants and is not at all hiding it. Her "secret" that only Sakurako understands is... that she is lazy? No, everyone knows that. That she eats like a bear? Nope, literally everyone who ever saw her eat is aware and either finds it endearing or just plain odd.
I can hardly justify that this is something only Sakurako will understand or support. As Kasumi is more of a pet most of the time, I can easily imagine other partners would like her exactly for that.

So now that those two are unfit for the roles beyond the most basic superficial view, what if we reversed it?
Sakurako is popular and has a dark side (though it's not really secret either, she does love to fawn creepily over Kasumi everywhere, even in public). She is not really indecisive or looking for any alternative partners though, as her chosen one is pretty much set in stone from chapter 1.
Kasumi is not good at house work (although she could be if she was forced to), doesn't really fit the unpopular category either even if she is not social. Whether she is good of heart or incredibly selfish I don't really need to explain... She is not out of Sakurako's league of course. You could say she is kind of a hard worker when she has a goal (all the part-time jobs, the serious consideration of her future, getting into a good university, studying hard despite being distracted by Saku all the time), but again, that doesn't exactly fit the stereotypical image of the "hard worker". She has literally zero tolerance for Sakurako's weird creepy adoration, so that is a no-no on the accepting the secret side part...

The fact is this: Sakurako does not win Kasumi's heart with her houseworking skills (those are just a bonus). What truly got her is that face when she welcomes her back. The feeling of having someone who always will be there for her. Someone that is easy to live with. Someone to share a meal with. Kasumi very much appreciates Sakurako'`s looks too (fixation on hair in particular).
Sakurako of course appreciates Kasumi's beauty and "grace", but she also very much loves her for her moments of kindness and affection, the way she completely goes along with the flow and that she acts like a pet to her sometimes.

Ergo summarum: The formula is no good.

last edited at May 21, 2019 1:28PM

As it turns out, Chi-chan (who is a gloomy, unkempt writer living an otaku lifestyle in a room that looks like a garbage dump) has won herself the worshipful admiration of Nagi (a statuesque, stylish blonde belle) with the only book she ever published.

... when a gorgeous buxom stunner comes to you saying that she's crazy about you and wants to be your loving servant from now on, that's not called a stalker, that's called a dream come true. (˵ ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°˵)♡*:･

It just hit me right now as I was reading your last post: these women who play the role of the desired ones of the MCs, aren't they almost always... tall sexy blondes?

You'd think the fetish of the tall sultry blonde with an hourglass figure is a Westerner, not Asian, thing... but for some reason it seems like it has caught in Japan too. We've been discussing how Kasumi, who plays the "desired one" role for Sakurako's "point of insertion" role, is a tall blonde so incredibly beautiful she makes you wonder if you are the same species as her, but how many more are just like that?
Think about it:
That Nagi girl from the manga you summarized before looks exactly the part of the gorgeous blonde with an impressive rack of breasts; it's especially striking in contrast with the short, flat-chested writer lady - just like Kasumi looks even more luscious in contrast with Sakurako.
Kagami from this manga is the coolest girl in the academy - and also a looker with long blonde hair.
Fujishiro from this manga starts as a sexy, slutty blonde (changes a bit later).
Nikaidou from this manga is the school's alpha, a tall blonde with a great body.
Shizuma Hanazono is a platinum blonde looker, the officially recognized queen of the school, and close to being a superwoman.
Yūna Matsubara, blonde with blue eyes and a bust size of 87, is smart, rich, popular and rules the commitee which acts as Student Council.
Tsuzuki Risa from this here manga is... heck, I can't even begin to describe how breathtakingly voluptuous this hot blonde is.

I wonder what's the reason for this particular fetish being so common... I know (so you don't have to remind me, White Rose, okay? lol) that it has nothing to do with the old bullshit about Asian people secretly yearning to be Caucasians - that sick racist phantasm has been debunked long ago and nobody in their right mind would claim it today. I suspect it has more to do with the "stylish" association that blonde hair carries (the impression, whether it's true or not, that you belong to the crowd who invests mucho time and money in perfecting their appearance) or the exotic/mysterious side that an unusual hair color might give you - both if you are at least partly non-Japanese or if you aren't (even more mysterious if you aren't).

Think about it:
That Nagi girl from the manga you summarized before looks exactly the part of the gorgeous blonde with an impressive rack of breasts; it's especially striking in contrast with the short, flat-chested writer lady - just like Kasumi looks even more luscious in contrast with Sakurako.

Nagi is not blonde. She is a brunette.

Fujishiro from this manga starts as a sexy, slutty blonde (changes a bit later).

I can't believe you just called Fujishiro slutty... jesus. Her hair was dyed too, she was never naturally blonde. She abandons that color almost immediately.

I wonder what's the reason for this particular fetish being so common...

Japanese guys and lesbians are into big breasts? Who woulda thunk.
Manga/anime hair colors are all over the place. Every single trait you mentioned I have seen in black haired main characters hundreds of times.
Maybe rather than it being the more common appeal, it's just that those cases stand out to you, because they are so visually distinct.

^@Fairypixie24
Not that the main point is entirely wrong, but I was under the strong impression that in b&w manga, unless a character is specifically cited as being “part-Westerner,” (or a hair-dyeing gyaru) what looks like “blonde” hair is really assumed by convention to be chestnut-colored or otherwise just lighter than standard dark hair. In other words, the significance of hair color is primarily of function of a set of binary oppositions (dark/light, long/short, messy/styled, etc.) rather than of cultural associations, per se.

There are plenty of dark-haired beauties in manga and anime, after all.

last edited at May 21, 2019 3:26PM

Not that the main point is entirely wrong, but I was under the strong impression that in b&w manga, unless a character is specifically cited as being “part-Westerner,” (or a hair-dyeing gyaru) what looks like “blonde” hair is really assumed by convention to be chestnut-colored or otherwise just lighter than standard dark hair. In other words, the significance of hair color is primarily of function of a set of binary oppositions (dark/light, long/short, messy/styled, etc.) rather than of cultural associations, per se.

There are plenty of dark-haired beauties in manga and anime, after all.

^Yes yes, there are. I was about to say that myself. Hell yeah, there are! The blonde sexy girl (whether real blonde or only lighter-haired) is a popular archetype, but the Yamato Nadeshiko is every bit as popular. In all genres, yuri included! And the cool short-haired sporty girl is totally adored by readers as well! Right now, we were talking about manga series with stories patterned on the standard of old romantic dime novels. Well, two have been mentioned that are really big hitters, Marimite and Kase-san. In Marimite, Sachiko Ogasawara is a classic Japanese beauty from a conservative family; she has long black hair and masters all the skills of a traditional Japanese lady. In Kase-san, Kase is a splendid beauty no matter how you look at her, but she is also a tomboy with short black hair who has a "manly" personality and is also a star of school sports.

There are so many like them... oh, the list is huge! Trust me on that one, blondes are not the only "fetish" yurigirls go for. ( ͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ ~) – ✧