I coudn’t help but think of our previous discussion of “authorial intention” in literary interpretation when I saw this:

Poet stumped by standardized test questions about her own poem

https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-texas-poem-puzzle-20170109-story.html

If the conversation is going to continue (as it has every right to do), could one or both of you give a one-or-two sentence clarification of what the basic issue in dispute is, and what the consequences of it are for our understanding of the work as a whole?

Because I’m not seeing such a huge difference in the positions to account for the length and vigor of the dispute (probably because I’m not reading carefully enough, and therefore could use some help).

Ahem... as the conversation officially doesn't exist anymore apparently... now it may be pointless, but here is how I saw this ex-discussion.

My point was that Touko made the choice to become Mio on her own and while her surroundings influenced her views, the blame for the outcome lies with her. She was inflicitng self-harm by the way she acts out of grief and a need to overcome her weak self.
It's all pro responsibility and choice for me.

It's just honestly better this way. Instead of having walls of text with misunderstandings going back and forth, and creating whatever potential further confusion for anyone that reads them, a different approach can be made. I also could not see the "discussion" as such with unprovoked insults and wrongful accusations thrown at me when there was a disagreement. The part about the quotes was my misunderstanding, so that I apologize for that and only that.

I agree that Touko made a choice, but argue that the choice made was influenced by her experiences. And I do not accept that Touko is to be blamed for the entire outcome. I am also pro responsibility and choice, but choice isn't easy and our choices are often influenced by our experiences. That's all for the time being.

last edited at May 4, 2019 9:43AM

I also could not see the "discussion" as such with unprovoked insults thrown at me when there was a disagreement.

At this point it feels like a running gag on this site to accuse me of insulting everyone, but honestly. Seriously. This one time I absolutely stayed 100% objective and on topic. I made no personal accusations or anything. And neither Blastaar or Iuinthoron said anything insulting either. Let's not poison the well and just accept the difference in opinion.

last edited at May 4, 2019 9:41AM

Following up my above comments, I'd also stipulate that some people's choices are so dominated by exterior circumstances as to amount to them having no good choices at all, and we've seen stories where characters not unlike Touko were in situations like that--young people whose families imposed demands and restrictions on them to the extent that they were, or felt, effectively helpless.

To me this series is pretty clear that while the initial motivation for the "replace Mio" project came from family and friends, Touko has pursued it with such absolute dedication for reasons of her own.

Things have heated up a bit here...
Going back to the chapter, I find Yuu calling Touko "unfair" an interesting callback to previous chapters. She has used that word ("zurui" in Japanese) to refer to Touko in chapters 3 & 18. In chapter 3 because Touko was able to fall in love, in 18 because Yuu wasn't allowed to reciprocate her feelings. Here it has a difference nuance. While in chapter 3 Yuu looked like she was about to murder Touko, here she is smiling and doesn't seem to hold a grudge against Touko for experiencing the sudden big feeling of love former Yuu wanted.

That "unfair" has sometimes been a bit of a puzzler to me. Sometimes it's quite clear, like in Chap. 18 when Touko takes the snack that Yuu says she wanted (with the overtones you mention).

Sometimes it's more ambiguous--in chapter 3 she actually says it twice, once about Touko being able to feel that someone else is "special," and there it's not clear if Touko is unfair because she led Yuu to believe that the two of them were similar or if it's the unfairness of the universe in giving Touko an ability that Yuu wishes she had.

Then in the coffee-shop scene where Yuu and Touko finalize their relationship "contract" Yuu calls Touko unfair, which in objective terms she is, because the rights and obligations are so asymmetrical, but Yuu explicitly says that she herself made the agreement, and according to her own self-image at the moment all the advantage should be on her side--she is being asked to allow herself to be loved without being asked to love Touko in return, which she believes she couldn't do in any case.

The difference in facial expressions here pretty much tells the tale of the series:

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch03#28
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch40#24

EDIT: And isn't this the first time Yuu has actually said this to Touko? I think all the other times were in her head. Communication--nothing like it, I tells ya.

last edited at May 4, 2019 12:24PM

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last edited at May 4, 2019 12:44PM by

^The one in chapter 18 is said out loud as well - and is the only part of her full thoughts there actually said so, making it seem for Touko as if she's only (and possibly jokingly) complaining about the food, not the balance of their relationship.

last edited at May 4, 2019 12:47PM

^The one in chapter 18 is said out loud as well - and is the only part of her full thoughts there actually said so, making it seem for Touko as if she's only (and possibly jokingly) complaining about the food, not the balance of their relationship.

Funny thing, in the anime it felt more like an internal line.

^The one in chapter 18 is said out loud as well - and is the only part of her full thoughts there actually said so, making it seem for Touko as if she's only (and possibly jokingly) complaining about the food, not the balance of their relationship.

Right, and I just looked at that one, too--I didn't notice that it starts as a thought but actually ends with the spoken "unfair."

I keep thinking there was another instance of this, but all I can come up with is the reverse--that scene in chap. 14 where Yuu and Sayaka each talk about Touko and end their sentences with ellipses, then follow parallel trains of thought on their own.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch14#14

^The one in chapter 18 is said out loud as well - and is the only part of her full thoughts there actually said so, making it seem for Touko as if she's only (and possibly jokingly) complaining about the food, not the balance of their relationship.

Funny thing, in the anime it felt more like an internal line.

Actually rewatched it to check this, and it's exactly the same in the anime as well. But seeing how it begins as an internal line and ends with just the one word spoken, it's easy to see how one could miss it, as Blastaar just showed with the manga as well.

Funny thing, in the anime it felt more like an internal line.

Actually rewatched it to check this, and it's exactly the same in the anime as well. But seeing how it begins as an internal line and ends with just the one word spoken, it's easy to see how one could miss it, as Blastaar just showed with the manga as well.

That's why I said "felt". In the manga it's obviously a speech bubble, but in the anime it just is the same tone of voice, so it blends in better.

^Well, to an extent it is, as a continuation of her previously internal line, so it only makes sense for it to be in the same tone of voice. I suppose this is why it was so crucial to actually show her speaking this bit in the anime, as it can not be easily differentiated by a speech bubble like in the original manga.

Well, I already mentioned earlier that I have been watching the anime one episode per day for some time now. I just finished watching episode 10, so can confirm: she did say "tsurui", and not just as a part of internal monologuing either.
(Huh, guess re-watching it one episode per day actually proved being useful for something more than just trying to get someone to put me on r/madlads for watching the sports day episode on my school's sports day.)

last edited at May 4, 2019 5:03PM

For one, you inferred that I was ignorant simply because I felt that Touko's father could have approached her differently, never saying he did something wrong to be "called out" for. Further, you attempted to imply that my view was disrespecting or restricting Touko's independence by myself simply arguing that what Touko's family said to her influenced her view of self and decision making process. And you asked me if the example I used was "the best I could do" as if this is a competition. Those don't represent objectivity, and the topic is the story and characters, not me.

I never brought the others into this. My reply that you've quoted was to Balstaar's question, which specifically was about the conversation between you and I, and no one else. To use others to imply that I am "poisoning the well" by doing something I never did is yet another false accusation. But if the 'Let's" includes you, I do agree that the argument itself is at least not providing an atmosphere for healthy discussion.

That said, this back and fourth really isn't worth it. I'm here to talk about the story, not to fight over personal reasons. So absolutely, let's just move on from this. And to be clear, I posted this because I was asked where I felt the discussion was running into difficulties.

If that had actually been your view, it would be ignorant. Whether you feel insulted by this potential possibility is your own issue.
Saying your view is disrespectful is an insult in what way....? Especially when it's a fictional character who you owe no respect to in the first place?
Of course I ask whether that was your best argument, because there might have been a better one. Your argument being bad is my opinion based on the objective observations I gathered. Whether my interpretation was correct or not, my question for better proof is not an insult, but the natural course of a discussion.

As I did not insult you in any way, I was looking at the other participants of the conversation and added that they too did not do anything of the sort. You are poisoning the well for our conversation right now by forcing in a victim mentality. I find it rather confounding how you came to these conclusions. I don't tend to feel attacked easily, so I have not even paid attention to your own actions in that regard and won't bother to search for them either. Just let it be said that you were the one to derail the conversation under false accusations and misunderstandings, not me...

@Hokuto: How long did it take to compose your comment? I mean: wow, that’s dedication right there to the arts... so, to understand why you wrote so much in the comment section—You do this manga stuff for a living?

Edit: hmm, staring at the time stamps... huh, two hours?

With the amount written, I’d say that was non-stop hunt-and-pecking at the key board.

last edited at May 5, 2019 2:15AM

You are new to this thread, aren't you @Clueless1? lol

Yes, thank you for noticing, I’ve put in my two cents over time and read more before that. I shouldn’t pick on Hokuto as I’ve noticed you (BugDevil) and Blastarr have more numerous and larger responses than Hokuto.

I’ve walked away from the thread for a bit after the latest chapter came out and holy smokes, the comment count totally surged... is it a bunch of fan buzz being excited over a climactic event in the manga? Nope, looks like a flame war over psychological nuances in the story.

I’m impressed over the comments given... shows how passionate and enthusiastic everyone is over this art form. There’s no way I’d be like that, I don’t have time for it, but I can admire it from afar.

@Clueless1 Ah... I was just refering to the fact that overly deep analyses and in-depth debates have been a staple of this thread since conception. If Hokuto was doing manga stuff for a living based on some walltext, I think Heavensrun and Blastaar would be world renown mangakas by now.

@Clueless1 Ah... I was just refering to the fact that overly deep analyses and in-depth debates have been a staple of this thread since conception. If Hokuto was doing manga stuff for a living based on some walltext, I think Heavensrun and Blastaar would be world renown mangakas by now.

I have no knowledge of anyone on this website. What I've read and bothered to notice makes me think they gotta be paid in some way for all their comments. They are either "talking shop" or they work at a job with little oversight from the boss.

I don't do debates, I just need help understanding stuff in "lost in translation" and cultural ignorance. PLUS, recently finding out the lag time in posting translations led me to a sense of futility in providing feedback.

I find there's a good correlation between comments given by people in a thread usually indicates they're involved in the manga some how, like translation, promoting, publication... It's ok to defend their pride and effort online, no complaints from me.

Edit: the screen names you've given are over my head (don't know them personally, yet know of their voluminous comments). Is there a way to find out from the screen name the user is a mangaka or part of a translation team?

last edited at May 5, 2019 3:58AM

I have no knowledge of anyone on this website. What I've read and bothered to notice makes me think they gotta be paid in some way for all their comments. They are either "talking shop" or they work at a job with little oversight from the boss.

Edit: the screen names you've given are over my head (don't know them personally, yet know of their voluminous comments). Is there a way to find out from the screen name the user is a mangaka or part of a translation team?

I wish I was paid for discussing a hobby... Also did you just suggest they are writing these posts at work? lol

Uh... do you mean usernames?
Mangakas don't usually hang around on some international forum that illegally puts up their scanlated works. I don't think there is a tag for that.
Scanlators, Moderators and Uploaders get a little plaque right next to the username that identifies them as such though.

If I was a mangaka and wanted to collect opinions about my work I would be reading these forums but would not bother participating hahah especially if I was writing more “indie” stories like manhwa etc.

Also I don’t think people would have time to write here while at work...if you notice there are peaks of posting during weekends and certain times.

The Bloom Into You thread in any case has always been pretentious af

last edited at May 5, 2019 10:38AM

The Bloom Into You thread in any case has always been pretentious af

And we like that way :-)

I have no knowledge of anyone on this website. What I've read and bothered to notice makes me think they gotta be paid in some way for all their comments. They are either "talking shop" or they work at a job with little oversight from the boss.

Edit: the screen names you've given are over my head (don't know them personally, yet know of their voluminous comments). Is there a way to find out from the screen name the user is a mangaka or part of a translation team?

I wish I was paid for discussing a hobby... Also did you just suggest they are writing these posts at work? lol

Uh... do you mean usernames?
Mangakas don't usually hang around on some international forum that illegally puts up their scanlated works. I don't think there is a tag for that.
Scanlators, Moderators and Uploaders get a little plaque right next to the username that identifies them as such though.

You ever see "The Guild, season 3"? There was a skit about discovering a player who played during business hours... Hilarious as how things resolved.

Thanks for letting me know about the S.U.M.

I believe this website/forum is a great way for publication companies to jump at licensing titles stateside. I mean, for a nobody who's got zilch credit/reputation to their name, posting on here is a good start towards improving themselves to the point of getting noticed. Or is there another website that already offers this like Reddit, PIXIV, and I forgot the other one...EDIT: Deviantart!

last edited at May 6, 2019 3:52AM

Because of the confusion created about the (Doujima X Koyomi) issue, I
went back and have reread Bloom, and I think I now understand what
has happened.

When on another Yuri blog, someone mentioned the pairing, either
seriously or as a joke. I then went onto Dynasty Scans, and Blastaar
on Mar 1, 2019, 10:21 pm, mentioned in jest, the same pairing.
Well, where there is smoke there must be fire type of thing, so I
assumed that there must be something to it all.

But after rereading Bloom, I realized the nuances of Ms. Nakatani's
writing, and that I had totally failed to pick up on many subtle
relationships going on in this story.

In 15.1 Doujima apparently recruits Akari to supervise the 200 m dash.
In 15.12, Akari reports in, and Doujima thanks her and then both
leave to return to their respective groups. In walking away, Doujima
sees in 15.13 that Akari is going to sit down with Koyomi, and you
can tell the emotions involved by the 4 surprise dots drawn next to
his face. So Doujima goes over to them ostensibly to talk with
Koyomi who he knows. But this is not what is going on at all.
It is clear that Doujima is interested in Akari, not Koyomi. This is
probably where the mix up starts.

Well poor Doujima is kinda jerky, and clueless, so he immediately
makes a sexist remark, which brings the scorn of Koyomi upon his head,
that he is shallow, and Akari just burns a stare into him.

But the mood passes.

Then much later in 27.14, the basketball captain confesses to Akari,
that she and Oogaki-senpai have been going together since Freshman
year. Akari now knows that Oogaki-senpai lied to her when she confessed
to him. She runs out in tears but is stopped by Yuu and Doujima, who
attempt to comfort her. Akari tells them what has happened, and
Doujima gets really angry, and is going to find Oogaki and have it
out with him.

Doujima then says one of the most significant lines in Bloom,
"Telling someone you love them is never wrong!". The dude nailed it!

Akari and Yuu stop him, because Doujima is wrong about Oogaki.
The captain, his girlfriend, did not want to publicize their
relationship. So had Oogaki told the truth to Akari, he would have
broken faith with his girlfriend's wishes. Instead he says, that he
wants to concentrate on Basketball which probably has some truth.

Then Akari thanks Doujima. You need to look at page 27.18 and the
look on Doujima's face drawn with two big lines to the right!
Priceless!

Then in 39.4 Akari tells Yuu she is going bowling with the Basketball
Club, and then later in 39.7 Maki says that Doujima told him that he
was going bowling with the Basketball Club. Humm, the glop thickens!

And Yuu in 39.8 says that she can see (Doujima X Akari).

I realized that I had not been paying close enough attention to
Ms. Nakatani's writing which can get very subtle, just like in real
life. Bloom is really and truly a great piece of Romance, and
Yuu is also right about Doujima; jerky and clueless as he is, Yuu sees
what I did not, that the guy has a solid core of right and wrong.
Doujima is a decent fellow. Mea Culpa for all my harsh words. I take
them all back.

last edited at May 5, 2019 10:55PM