I never said it didn't have a plot. But it hasn't been conflict driven for 37 chapters now and Sayaka has been presented as nothing but sympathetic, so to portray her as that which must be overcome by our "heroes" now just sounds like brainless shipping to me rather than sincere story analysis. And I'm pretty sure Blastaar is just hoping to bait me at this point so there's that too.

As I see it the series has been a slow, character driven (and definitely psychological) burn. And I honestly expect it to stay a slow, character driven burn until the end. Which is why I call it a slice of life. And I think people who are looking for some sort of grand drama over the next few chapters is pretty much setting themselves up for disappointment but... whatever.

Sayaka is not the antagonist and Yuu/Touko are not the heroes. That is oversimplifying it, but that's also not what Blastaar or Heavensrun actually said. She is an obstacle to the romantic relationship of Touko and Yuu, you know, the thing the entire story built towards? But that doesn't mean we have to antagonize her. This is not an obstacle that needs to be crushed, it's one that simply happens to be there as a stepping stone towards the end goal. Sad for Sayaka, but just narratively sound.

I can't fathom why you would think that a character driven story doesn't have (much) plot. Being a slow burn or not conflict driven (minus the dozens of conflict driven situations and chapters lol) has literally no relevance to whether it's SoL or not. There are many plot heavy stories that are extremely slow. Could it be that you just don't know what SoL actually is? YagaKimi doesn't even fit the definition you posted.

Notice also that at first Sayaka is in the lead going up the stairs, but for some reason Touko intentionally moves ahead of her so as to be waiting when Sayaka gets there.

I loved this detail. It's really graphic about Touko's state of mind but I struggle to put the impression in words.

@strayalive
OOF!

Well, that's what I get for trying to reach out and find common ground with a shipper.

This is not an obstacle that needs to be crushed, it's one that simply happens to be there as a stepping stone towards the end goal. Sad for Sayaka, but just narratively sound.

Except its not because as I've already said rejecting the confession will probably be the end of Touko and Sayaka's friendship. And you guys are either oblivious to the fact that there essentially has to be some fallout from Sayaka's confession (because she's not a fucking villain) or want that impact hand waved. I don't get it.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 9:18AM

This is not an obstacle that needs to be crushed, it's one that simply happens to be there as a stepping stone towards the end goal. Sad for Sayaka, but just narratively sound.

Except its not because as I've already said rejecting the confession will probably be the end of Touko and Sayaka's friendship. And you guys are either oblivious to the fact that there essentially has to be some fallout from Sayaka's confession (because she's not a fucking villain) or want that impact hand waved. I don't get it.

That's a reach alright. There is no reason why their friendship would end here. Sayaka has prepared herself for both outcomes already and has given no hint to staking her friendship on this. If there is a rift, it would be entirely coming from Touko, who clearly values Sayaka's friendship.

I have no idea what you are even insinuating here. What exactly does this have to do with whether she is an obstacle or not? Whether there is plot or not? Whether this makes sense for the narrative or not? Yes, there will be emotional turmoil, no matter what Touko's reply will be. Is that bad? Is that wrong?

All I can say is, if you like Sayaka, you better hope Touko rejects her. Anything else is just prolonged torture.

@strayalive
Oof!

Well, that's what I get for trying to reach out and find common ground with a shipper.

This is not an obstacle that needs to be crushed, it's one that simply happens to be there as a stepping stone towards the end goal. Sad for Sayaka, but just narratively sound.

Except it's not because as I've already said rejecting the confession will probably be the end of Touko and Sayaka's friendship. And you guys are either oblivious to the fact that there essentially has to be some fallout from Sayaka's confession (because she's not a fucking villain) or want that impact handwaved. I don't get it.

Where does anybody say that there won't be fallout from Sayaka's confession?

That's a reach alright. There is no reason why their friendship would end here. Sayaka has prepared herself for both outcomes already and has given no hint to staking her friendship on this. If there is a rift, it would be entirely coming from Touko, who clearly values Sayaka's friendship.

If you haven't already I would say to check the LN (or read it if you know moonspeak) synopsis; I think there's a pretty well established precedent. On top of that she's built her life around being comfortably in Touko's friend zone, so things have to change between her and Touko no matter what. Where they were inseparable there's going to be distance... I've already said that I think her stepping away from Student Council is likely.

I have no idea what you are even insinuating here. What exactly does this have to do with whether she is an obstacle or not? Whether there is plot or not? Whether this makes sense for the narrative or not? Yes, there will be emotional turmoil, no matter what Touko's reply will be. Is that bad? Is that wrong?

The more you frame her as an obstacle or villain or whatever the less Touko needs to give a shit (proportionately) about rejecting her. That's the crux of that scenario. It won't really land with someone as sympathetic as Sayaka. Its more likely to make Touko look like an asshole.

If you haven't already I would say to check the LN (or read it if you know moonspeak) synopsis; I think there's a pretty well established precedent. On top of that she's built her life around being comfortably in Touko's friend zone, so things have to change between her and Touko no matter what. Where they were inseparable there's going to be distance... I've already said that I think her stepping away from Student Council is likely.

The more you frame her as an obstacle or villain or whatever the less Touko needs to give a shit (proportionately) about rejecting her. That's the crux of that scenario. It won't really land with someone as sympathetic as Sayaka. Its more likely to make Touko look like an asshole.

Nope, can't read moonrunes and won't bother looking it up until the thing is actually translated.
Something will change is not actually a support for your theory though. It can change in a myriad of ways, but there is still no reason to think that they will break their friendship unless Touko suddenly gets overly distant, but considering she apparently already knew Sayaka's feelings, I don't see how she could suddenly change her friendly treatment. If Touko says "Can we stay friends?" what do you think Sayaka will answer? Will she act like a hurt lioness and say "No!"? Yeah right.

Oh jesus... so this is the problem here. Aside from the fact that we have been repeatedly telling you that she is not a villain, the point is that narratively speaking she is an obstacle. She is not actively an obstacle from the characters' point of view. Touko doesnt see her as an obstacle, so where did that ridiculous notion come from? Touko cares immensely and that's good. Even if we all saw Sayaka as a villain somehow (which she isn't) the same doesn't go for Touko. She gives a shit. And that's why if she rejects her, it doesn't make her look like an asshole.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 10:29AM

Will she act like a hurt lioness and say "No!"? Yeah right.

I... you're arguing against characterization here in favor of headcanon, I don't really have a response. Ganbatte! I guess.

Aside from the fact that we have been repeatedly telling you that she is not a villain, the point is that narratively speaking she is an obstacle. She is not actively an obstacle from the characters' point of view. Touko doesnt see her as an obstacle, so where did that ridiculous notion come from?

Have you actually considered the characters are right here and you guys are not? I feel like you're imposing cliche genre expectations here and the story in no way is backing you up. Its why I said a few posts ago that Heavensrun (at least) just seems to want Citrus.

And its not about the rejection as much as the repercussions.

This thread has been an excellent example of how the entire concept of “shipping,” which is pleasant enough as a parlor game or imaginative projection (or simply a re-labeling of the basic way readers connect to characters in relationship stories—who doesn’t ship Romeo and Juliet?) can become counterproductive to critical discourse and even toxic to the exchange of ideas.

Some “shipping wars” are the result of differing readings of a particular character or different readers’ preferences for a specific character type (or even gleefully perverse and contrarian, as in “I ship [Predatory playgirl domme from Story A X shy virtuous librarian in wheelchair from Story B]”). That’s perfectly understandable—after all, you like what you like.

In this case, however, the character of Sayaka in this series could literally have been designed to disprove the premise that predictions about the future plot are based on liking or disliking a particular character or pairing. She’s a great person without being artificially perfect; she and Touko get along splendidly, and (as the people around them explicitly say) they look great together. She has lot of integrity, discretion, and loyalty. It’s true (as she herself says) that she’s been a bit of a coward as she held back on expressing her feelings, but that only makes her intensely relatable—if every person here who at least once didn’t confess for fear of losing a precious friendship left the Dynasty forum, this place would be a ghost town. A story about Touko and Sayaka getting together could well be a great yuri story.

But no matter how clearly a given proposition is stated, it’s obvious that several posters in this thread have been unable or unwilling to perceive an argument or to understand disagreements in interpretation except through the lens of the other person’s “shipping” preferences. That hasn’t been the only problem—several elementary terms and concepts in literary/narrative analysis have been profoundly misunderstood or misused—but it’s (at least) extremely annoying to explain in detail how a reading of the text isn’t motivated by “shipping,” only to essentially be called a liar, or to see an clear explanation of the fundamentals of narrative form dismissed as if it’s about character preferences.

As a fan, I ship like anybody else, and I find, say, a mental image of Koyomi in domme gear standing over a lingerie-clad Akari quivering in anticipation to be pleasantly amusing (so sue me). But I’ve seen plenty of examples lately of people talking past each other in these threads because they assume that “shipping” is the default motivation for other people’s ideas, at which point what was once a fun, even whimsical, thought experiment has metastasized into a significant barrier to communication.

EDIT: Of course, none of this has anything to do with people who apparently don’t know what words mean—nothing to be done about that.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 11:12AM

Will she act like a hurt lioness and say "No!"? Yeah right.

I... you're arguing against characterization here in favor of headcanon, I don't really have a response. Ganbatte! I guess.

Except Sayaka hasn't been characterized the way you say. So hang in there yourself lmao
She has been shown to be reasonable at most times and very much interested in Touko's well-being. She was passive most of the time, but she has not been shown to be resentful towards Touko in particular. Even her "You are unfair" moments are shown in a sweet way.
So if she just abandoned Touko out of spite, is that really going along with her characterisation? No. It doesn't.

Aside from the fact that we have been repeatedly telling you that she is not a villain, the point is that narratively speaking she is an obstacle. She is not actively an obstacle from the characters' point of view. Touko doesnt see her as an obstacle, so where did that ridiculous notion come from?

Have you actually considered the characters are right here and you guys are not? I feel like you're imposing cliche genre expectations here and the story in no way is backing you up. Its why I said a few posts ago that Heavensrun (at least) just seems to want Citrus.

And its not about the rejection as much as the repercussions.

...what are you even trying to say? Each reply from you becomes less coherent.

So you are saying the narrative almost entirely focused on Yuu and Touko's relationship and finally fixing their emotional issues to come together, does not support that Sayaka who is in the way of that result, is an obstacle? You have literally no evidence for your claims, while you have been spoon fed dozens of obvious narrative clues. The only argument you have on your side until now is "You can't know this will work out that way, because there is always a possibility it won't." Yeah thanks for that brilliant contribution. I guess Nakatani can completely flip the script on its head in a heartbeat, but I feel we can give her more credit than that.

Nobody here has even talked about the repercussions. Why do you bring them up yet again? I am humoring you and replying to that statement, but you are aware that it is completely seperate from the actual conversation you had with everyone here, yeah? The repercussions can be whatever they will be, but that doesn't make Sayaka less of an obstacle and less of a pit stop to the true ending.

As a fan, I ship like anybody else, and I find, say, a mental image of Koyomi in domme gear standing over a lingerie-clad Akari quivering in anticipation to be pleasantly amusing (so sue me).

I am only mildly terrified. No suing required yet.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 11:22AM

So if she just abandoned Touko out of spite, is that really going along with her characterisation? No. It doesn't.

Where are you even getting "spite" from?

So you are saying the narrative almost entirely focused on Yuu and Touko's relationship and finally fixing their emotional issues to come together, does not support that Sayaka who is in the way of that result, is an obstacle?

How is the person who guided Yuu towards Touko's sister and who backed Yuu up on changing the play "in the way"? If anything she's helped them towards fixing their emotional issues, and the most assertive thing she's done up until now is tell Yuu that she's interested in Touko. And maybe according to genre formula #6AB3 Sayaka should stick around and help Touko and Yuu even more, but I'm pretty sure that's off the table.

At the end of the day what you want me to agree with just sounds like bad storytelling that won't appeal to anyone but fans of Yuu who want somebody to dunk on. Call it shipping, call it whatever, but I can't do it. I'd be incredibly disappointed in Nakatani if it goes that way.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 11:53AM

So if she just abandoned Touko out of spite, is that really going along with her characterisation? No. It doesn't.

Where are you even getting "spite" from?

From you saying she would leave the student council and break off friendship with Touko. Sayaka isn't so weak that she would do this out of self-pity, so what's the alternative? Touko needs her as a friend and support, so if she truly did this, it would be out of spite.
I'm open for any other explanation though.

So you are saying the narrative almost entirely focused on Yuu and Touko's relationship and finally fixing their emotional issues to come together, does not support that Sayaka who is in the way of that result, is an obstacle?

How is the person who guided Yuu towards Touko's sister and who backed Yuu up on changing the play "in the way"? If anything she's helped them towards fixing their emotional issues, and the most assertive thing she's done up until now is tell Yuu that she's interested in Touko. And maybe according to genre formula #6AB3 Sayaka should stick around and help Touko and Yuu even more, but I'm pretty sure that's off the table.

At the end of the day what you want me to agree with just sounds like bad storytelling that won't appeal to anyone but fans of Yuu who want somebody to dunk on. Call it shipping, call it whatever, but I can't do it. I'd be incredibly disappointed in Nakatani if it goes that way.

Oh for crying out loud... how static is your thinking? Sayaka can be a supportive character or an obstacle depending on the situation. She can be completely innocent or malicious depending on the situation that she is confronted with. In this current arc she is the obstacle. Again, not a villain. This was never about her morality or goodness of character. She deserved this fair shot at Touko. She just is in the way of the end goal of the story due to her completely understandable circumstances. Got it?

No, what I'm trying to convince you is already happening, is the plot of this story. It's not even out of the damn ordinary storytelling and far from "bad". This has been successfully used countless times and is completely justified and well set up. Touko rejects Sayaka (most likely) and learns something from this event. That leads to further development down the line for both characters. Not bad writing. Not trying to dunk on a character. This is just how this story has to go if it wants to stay consistent. That's why we are all predicting it to go down that way.
If you truly think that's bad writing, I simply have to assume that you are biased. Which is fine I guess, just don't act like anyone here said something outrageous, when it's merely the obvious.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 2:04PM

Touko needs her as a friend and support, so if she truly did this, it would be out of spite.

Were you this critical of Yuu for not being able to go right back to being friends with Touko in chapter 35?

My prediction is more that Touko losing her "friend and support" in the fallout from the confession (or perhaps short lived relationship) is going to be the catalyst for change that leads Touko back to Yuu. Take it or leave it.

Touko needs her as a friend and support, so if she truly did this, it would be out of spite.

Were you this critical of Yuu for not being able to go right back to being friends with Touko in chapter 35?

My prediction is more that Touko losing her "friend and support" in the fallout from the confession (or perhaps short lived relationship) is going to be the catalyst for change that leads Touko back to Yuu. Take it or leave it.

Except Yuu stays around and functions. Didn't leave the student council and didn't wallow in self-pity. Touko is unable to really approach her or interact, so it's clear why they don't solve their problems right away. But they have that extra layer of emotional issues. Sayaka is not broken like them and was prepared for the consequences, where Yuu only thought she was.
Believe it, if Touko needed help or support Yuu would still give it.

How so? It's easy to just randomly make a claim like that, but what exactly would losing Sayaka's friendship accomplish? An even greater confirmation for Touko that being loved and not living up to expectations has terrible consequences. The exact opposite of what she needs to evolve.
I've been saying myself that if Nakatani loses her mind and goes for the temporary Sayaka x Touko relationship that it could certainly work. It would serve its purpose alright. It's just horrible and unecessary if the alternative is far less painful and equally effective. So while the plot point works in a vacuum, it really contradicts the mood and flow of the story up to now.

Sayaka is not broken like them and was prepared for the consequences, where Yuu only thought she was.

...if you say so.

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife that a rejection from Touko is going to hit her a thousand times harder than it hit Yuu. For the first time in a long time she's going to have to be someone else.

How so? It's easy to just randomly make a claim like that, but what exactly would losing Sayaka's friendship accomplish? An even greater confirmation for Touko that being loved and not living up to expectations has terrible consequences. The exact opposite of what she needs to evolve.

I mean... you all keep talking about rock bottom or "the place where all is lost" and I'm kind of giving it to you on a platter here. And I've kept Sayaka as the "obstacle" too... kind of.

Though part of the reason I like the idea of a Sayaka Touko rebound is because I think it could give them both a soft landing.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 4:46PM

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife

What.

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife

What.

ikr? I mean, all that attention given to her developing relationship with the cafe owner (as mentor) is just meaningless, right?

So if Touko tells her, “I’m sorry,” Sayaka just dissolves into ashes, like in that Avengers movie.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 6:13PM

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife

What.

ikr? I mean, all that attention given to her developing relationship with the cafe owner (as mentor) is just meaningless, right?

So if Touko tells her, “I’m sorry,” Sayaka just dissolves into ashes, like in that Avengers movie.

Sayaka: Mrs. Nanami, I don't feel so good.

So where do we go to pick up our money for correctly predicting future developments in manga plots? Because I know that I’ve been right at least a few times, but I’ve never gotten a check, or a gift card, or anything.

We do get paid for it, right? Otherwise, why would everyone devote so much time and mental energy to it? :)

Seriously, though, it’s fun to try to tease out clues and try to foretell what’s going to happen, and to make as consistent an argument as possible to back up your position. But while we can confidently declare, “ This absolutely won’t happen,” or “ That can only happen if thus and so,” etc., I’d say that Nakatani-sensei has the skill and control to pull off any number of developments that seem impossible to us now. (I’m not going to risk setting off a shitstorm by giving any specific examples, because they would be unlikely by definition.)

There have been lots of manga series where at some point I had a gut feeling that, “This mangaka doesn’t really know how to resolve the situation they’ve set up,” or “This story feels like it’s go off the rails sooner or later,” and I turned out to be right. (And there have been some positive surprises, too.) It’s a hardly even a prediction to say that whatever happens, this one’s probably not going off the rails.

(We now return you to the Great Million-Dollar Manga Prediction Tournament, already in progress.)

...if you say so.

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife that a rejection from Touko is going to hit her a thousand times harder than it hit Yuu. For the first time in a long time she's going to have to be someone else.

Where exactly did you pull that hoot from? The LN? The manga has in no way portrayed Sayaka as totally dependant on Touko or being Touko's "platonic wife" lol

Like, she purposely kept her distance and was fine never confessing or bothering Touko, just keeping up the friendship. There is no real indicator right now to think she couldn't go back to being in that friend role, although naturally their perception of each other would change.

I mean... you all keep talking about rock bottom or "the place where all is lost" and I'm kind of giving it to you on a platter here. And I've kept Sayaka as the "obstacle" too... kind of.

Though part of the reason I like the idea of a Sayaka Touko rebound is because I think it could give them both a soft landing.

First of all, I didn't talk about rock bottom. That place was already reached when Yuu confessed and Touko didn't manage to overcome herself in my book. Anything down from here is just extra kicks to someone who is down.

In what way would that give them a soft landing? Do you really not see how getting into a fake relationship, which will inevitably be broken up by Touko because she realizes that it wont work and she loves another girl, hurts much more?

What's more painful: Getting to taste a spoonful of pudding and then let someone take all pudding away forever from you or never having tasted it in the first place?
That is my principle here and I know many will disagree (thats the nature of this question), but I'm in the "Tasting it and taking it away" camp. If you don't know what you are missing it's easier to cope with.

And in the first place I despise fake relationships for the sake of them. Touko doesn't love Sayaka and no matter what plot will be used, that part is the number 1 reason why I can't just go along with such a callous solution. Sayaka deserves better.

I’d say that Nakatani-sensei has the skill and control to pull off any number of developments that seem impossible to us now.

Indeed she can. Doesn't mean she should or would.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 7:29AM

"What's more painful: Getting to taste a spoonful of pudding and then let someone take all pudding away forever from you or never having tasted it in the first place?"

If you speak about sex and intimacy, the latter. It's not even a contest. This is the same reason who people do break-up kisses and last nights together all the time if they are breaking up in amicable terms and not in middle of a household war.

What hurts is seeing that person with some other person later on, if you are inclined towards being jealous.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 10:39AM

Where exactly did you pull that hoot from? The LN? The manga has in no way portrayed Sayaka as totally dependant on Touko or being Touko's "platonic wife" lol

I didn't say "dependent". And maybe "image" would have been a better word choice. To put it another way she's a (stage 5) clinger. Its something I started to pick up on in the manga that I think the LN affirms (or expands on).

Like, she purposely kept her distance and was fine never confessing or bothering Touko, just keeping up the friendship. There is no real indicator right now to think she couldn't go back to being in that friend role, although naturally their perception of each other would change.

That's called the friend zone.

In the same way Yuu and Touko's relationship has been built on sand to this point so have Sayaka and Touko. They could stay friends on some level but they are going to have to start over to some extent and since you expect a myopic focus on Touko and Yuu there's just no time for that. It would be easier to have Sayaka salvage her dignity and walk away or have them hook up and fizzle out. Both of which could service the plot you want and the spinoff.

Sayaka deserves better.

I mean... your theories up til now treat her with all the elegance of roadkill. Now I'm curious to know what your "bad end" looks like.

edit: and yes to literally everything in @herenowforever's post.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 11:05AM

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife

What.

ikr? I mean, all that attention given to her developing relationship with the cafe owner (as mentor) is just meaningless, right?

So if Touko tells her, “I’m sorry,” Sayaka just dissolves into ashes, like in that Avengers movie.

Sayaka: Mrs. Nanami, I don't feel so good.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

"What's more painful: Getting to taste a spoonful of pudding and then let someone take all pudding away forever from you or never having tasted it in the first place?"

If you speak about sex and intimacy, the latter. It's not even a contest. This is the same reason who people do break-up kisses and last nights together all the time if they are breaking up in amicable terms and not in middle of a household war.

What hurts is seeing that person with some other person later on, if you are inclined towards being jealous.

That's not really a common sentiment though. I won't deny that some people do that, but most couples break it off without that kind of thing.... After all most break-ups are messy or happen because the fire is gone. So what you suggest is highly contradictory.
Seeing someone else eat "the pudding" afterwards is an extra layer that I don't even want to involve in the choice.

Anyway, the idea is that if you were never together in the first place, the break up can't happen or hurt (in this specific case). Because we know from the start that it won't work out, Sayaka will in retrospect feel more pain, because she got fooled/deluded herself. I know it's a common sentiment to say "I would regret it more to not even have tried later", but actually that's far from realistic. If you knew it won't work you will just be unhappy because you liked what you had, but could never keep.

It hurts more to lose than never having had it, I guess.

EDIT: Just to be clear, the analogy only works if you know the result. I am not talking about something where you actually have hope at the start. Just the clear-cut option of having it for a moment to be taken away or never trying it.

Where exactly did you pull that hoot from? The LN? The manga has in no way portrayed Sayaka as totally dependant on Touko or being Touko's "platonic wife" lol

I didn't say "dependent". And maybe "image" would have been a better word choice. To put it another way she's a (stage 5) clinger. Its something I started to pick up on in the manga that I think the LN affirms (or expands on).

I'd say you are seeing things.

Like, she purposely kept her distance and was fine never confessing or bothering Touko, just keeping up the friendship. There is no real indicator right now to think she couldn't go back to being in that friend role, although naturally their perception of each other would change.

That's called the friend zone.

In the same way Yuu and Touko's relationship has been built on sand to this point so have Sayaka and Touko. They could stay friends on some level but they are going to have to start over to some extent and since you expect a myopic focus on Touko and Yuu there's just no time for that. It would be easier to have Sayaka salvage her dignity and walk away or have them hook up and fizzle out. Both of which could service the plot you want and the spinoff.

But in-universe that makes no sense. Screentime be damned, their friendship can heal off-screen. There is plenty of time.

Sayaka deserves better.

I mean... your theories up til now treat her with all the elegance of roadkill. Now I'm curious to know what your "bad end" looks like.

edit: and yes to literally everything in @herenowforever's post.

The bad end is Sayaka being toyed with, used and then broken up with afterwards. You know, the inevitable outcome of Touko accepting her confession?
You may be exceptionally hung up on the word "obstacle", but as a person I think Sayaka is way better off being rejected and getting a solid conclusion as early as possible.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 11:51AM

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

I... didn't really know what else to say to the paragraph comparing Sayaka to Darth Vader.

Oh come on, I didn't compare Sayaka to Darth Vader, and if you think that was the point, you haven't understood a single damn word I've said through this whole conversation and you -really- should go back to school and take some reading comprehension classes. (Edit: It helps if you finish sentences before moving on, which I did not. Stupid ADD.)

I was talking about story structure, and how, in every story, there is a point at which the central conflict comes to a head.

In a sci-fi action epic, the central conflict is a literal war against bad guys. In romance, it is the relationship between the principle characters. But the details aren't the point, the point is that the author structures the story so that the main goal of the protagonists, which the reader/viewer sympathizes with, is jeopardized so that there is a sense of catharsis when everything works out. I picked an action movie because the stakes and threats are obvious and you can generally assume everybody's seen Star Wars. There aren't many romances that have that kind of universal familiarity.

In fact, I would wager to say there's evidence in the chapter that suggests Touko was oblivious, or at least in denial, up until the moment of truth. When she helps Sayaka with the love charm....I mean her behavior in that scene is a little...irresponsible? If she knows or strongly suspects that she's the subject of Sayaka's feelings. She almost seems amused that Sayaka's even interested in something like that, and it's definitely inconsistent with the "Don't do it" that comes at confession time.

I mean... her entire relationship with Yuu is irresponsible, so that's not exactly a stretch. And this is kind of a loaded topic in my experience because I think people want to believe she's oblivious, and with Yuu I think she is, but I don't think she's toying with Sayaka or something like that either. I guess in simplest terms I think she's convinced the genie will stay in the bottle when it comes to Sayaka's feelings.

Her relationship with Yuu is more oblivious than conciously irresponsible. Yuu lied to her about what she wanted right from the start, and Touko believed her. You can call that naive, but I don't know that irresponsible is the word. But helping Sayaka with a love charm and congratulating her up close when she succeeds...If she knew about Sayaka's feelings, eh, there's just no reason for her to act that way. It'd be...kinda mean, honestly.

I think from what we've seen so far, Touko catches on right before the confession, and that she wasn't convinced of Sayaka's feelings until the moment came.

Slice of life stories still have structure. In fact, Slice of life stories tend to be way more formulaic and episodic about it.

I mean technically a sitcom or CGDCT is a slice of life but that's not what I'm referring to at all. I mean "slice of life" in much more of a 'Western' sense for lack of a better way to put it.

Yeah, I don't understand what you're getting at at all with this. Can you give me an example of the kind of plotless, unstructured slice of life story you think this is supposed to resemble?

Is Macross Delta really different or something? The other series all had really definite narrative arcs!

I brought it up for its triangles, not its narratives. Most the series had pretty meaty triangles, but Delta actually had a rival with 0 chance I think you would have appreciated.

Ohhhh, okay. I thought you were saying Macross is a plotless slice of life story, and I was like whaaaaaaa-

Macross does have pretty meaty love triangles! Hikaru, Myung, and Alto's romantic options featured prominently in the original, Plus, and Frontier respectively. I haven't seen Delta, I can't remember if Zero had a love triangle, (the two sisters? There were two sisters, right? I only watched it once.) and I remember very little of 7 aside from the fact that Basara made me constantly want to punch him.

But leaving aside the fact that none of those relationships are the focal point of the plot, they're also handled pretty differently structurally. Hikaru's story is about growing up, and his transition from a superficial crush on Lynn to a more mature and serious emotional connection to Misa is just one small piece of that journey, but their relationship was built up and developed gradually over the course of the entire series. The same was true for Alto, Ranka, and Cheryl.
Way more times was spent keeping the triangle balanced and showing Alto's growing relationship with both of them.
I'm pretty sure those three just end up in a poly relationship anyway, since Cheryl and Ranka also seem pretty into each other. ;p Then you've got Macross Plus, where you had Myung, Isamu, and Guld, but that was a pretty different dynamic and it was pretty clear though the whole story that Myung only ever really had eyes for Isamu.

I could write an essay on why each of those is different from the situation with YagaKimi, but it really comes down to one basic thing. In those stories, none of those relationships were the -focus- of the story. They were all side-plots to the main narratives, which were about fighter pilots doing fighter pilot things in and out of various war situations. YagaKimi is a -romance- that is explicitly about Yuu and Touko's relationship. We know it's about that because not only is it all over the text and the subtext, It's also all over the metatext and we have Word of God on it from the author herself.

As to why Touko “keeps Sayaka around,” it’s because they’re, you know, friends.

Yeah but... Sakaya is almost definitely not going to be able to stay friends with Touko if/when she gets rejected and I think its pretty likely she'll bail on Student Council too.

I actually agree with you that a rejection will be a considerable strain on their friendship. It's not a foregone conclusion that they can't reconcile it, but it would definitely be difficult. But she definitely won't bail on the student council. That's an obligation, and she's a serious person with a pretty professional personality. Japanese students take organizational duties pretty seriously. (at least the studious ones do.)

Hurrah! The witch is dead! But... will Touko have lingering thoughts of Sayaka when she's gone? Hmmm.

Touko needing some time to deal with the emotional fallout of losing Sayaka (right after Yuu) is another reason I don't think a grand romantic gesture from her makes sense. I could see her exit sparking something like a slow "picking up the pieces" phase where Touko and Yuu begin to start over though.

I mean, what is your idea of a grand romantic gesture? And if she "loses" Sayaka, it will only be -because- she has resolved to get Yuu back. Like I said, I imagine we'll see a turning point in Touko's attitude towards her feelings for Yuu within the next few chapters, which is -why- she'll turn down the confession.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 3:19PM