In my case it's not so much that bisexuality is bad (hell, I'm biromantic myself), but I don't trust manga authors to be any good at depicting it. As a rule they've got a history of being pretty terrible at it.

So bis are great, stories about bis tend to be pretty crap.

Didn't you know? Male or female, we only exist to incite narrative drama by cheating on our partners.

And we always cheat with people of the opposite gender than our partners. Yuri manga have not been kind to bi people, lol.

It's not just yuri manga. I read a webcomic where the exact same thing happened with a male couple.

There could be a small grain of truth in there, although not in the sense of bi people being somehow actually more horrible than straight or gay ones. I talked once (hence this is not really a representative sample) with a lesbian on this site whose girlfriend cheated on her with a guy, she did say the fact it was a guy made the whole experience harder to take. But that does not apply to all lesbians, I imagine, plus, even when it is relevant it is only applicable to situations where a bi person actually cheats, and cheats with a person of the opposite gender, at that. And the chances of bi people cheating are no different than those of gay or straight people.

There is also the fact most yuri fans look at any traces of het in their yuri as the work of Satan himself, and there is no way authors who work primarily or solely in this genre are unaware of that. If I had to guess, I would say the writers are probably using bi characters for cheap shock value, as in, to somehow make cheating even more horrible than it already is in the eyes of the audience. Yaoi genre could be doing it for the same cheap reasons. Mind you, this is just idle speculation on my part.

I mean, teeeeechnicalllly the chances of bi people cheating are double that of any other sexuality ( straight, gay and lesbian ). More people you could like = more people you could cheat with. Seems logical to me.

In my case it's not so much that bisexuality is bad (hell, I'm biromantic myself), but I don't trust manga authors to be any good at depicting it. As a rule they've got a history of being pretty terrible at it.

So bis are great, stories about bis tend to be pretty crap.

Didn't you know? Male or female, we only exist to incite narrative drama by cheating on our partners.

And we always cheat with people of the opposite gender than our partners. Yuri manga have not been kind to bi people, lol.

It's not just yuri manga. I read a webcomic where the exact same thing happened with a male couple.

There could be a small grain of truth in there, although not in the sense of bi people being somehow actually more horrible than straight or gay ones. I talked once (hence this is not really a representative sample) with a lesbian on this site whose girlfriend cheated on her with a guy, she did say the fact it was a guy made the whole experience harder to take. But that does not apply to all lesbians, I imagine, plus, even when it is relevant it is only applicable to situations where a bi person actually cheats, and cheats with a person of the opposite gender, at that. And the chances of bi people cheating are no different than those of gay or straight people.

There is also the fact most yuri fans look at any traces of het in their yuri as the work of Satan himself, and there is no way authors who work primarily or solely in this genre are unaware of that. If I had to guess, I would say the writers are probably using bi characters for cheap shock value, as in, to somehow make cheating even more horrible than it already is in the eyes of the audience. Yaoi genre could be doing it for the same cheap reasons. Mind you, this is just idle speculation on my part.

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

Be my friend. Let us hate heterosexuality together. Even though I am straight myself. Hypocritical, I know. If only my girlfriend and I were the only heterosexual people in the world, that would be perfect.

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

I will not delve into the whole gay-purity-destroyed-by-het, because I find the whole concept to be beyond ridiculous, but I will point out you chose the wrong example. "Octave" did not use het to "drive home the knife" with the cheating aspect, it was an element of Yukino's confusion about her own sexuality, and her wanting to know where she stood. The way she went about it was wrong, but not because of het, and it was certainly not used to make the cheating worse in the eyes of the audience.

Edit:

I mean, teeeeechnicalllly the chances of bi people cheating are double that of any other sexuality ( straight, gay and lesbian ). More people you could like = more people you could cheat with. Seems logical to me.

Jesus Christ, that did not take long at all, did it. It seems logical to you because you are retarded.

last edited at May 24, 2018 3:24PM

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

I will not delve into the whole gay-purity-destroyed-by-het, because I find the whole concept to be beyond ridiculous, but I will point out you chose the wrong example. "Octave" did not use het to "drive home the knife" with the cheating aspect, it was an element of Yukino's confusion about her own sexuality, and her wanting to know where she stood. The way she went about it was wrong, but not because of het, and it was certainly not used to make the cheating worse in the eyes of the audience.

Edit:

I mean, teeeeechnicalllly the chances of bi people cheating are double that of any other sexuality ( straight, gay and lesbian ). More people you could like = more people you could cheat with. Seems logical to me.

Jesus Christ, that did not take long at all, did it. It seems logical to you because you are retarded.

Mensa would say otherwise lol #top2%. There are no current statistics to say that bisexuals cheat more. What I am saying is, that they would have an easier time, since there are more fish in the sea.

the whole gay-purity-destroyed-by-het

When I was a kid I was taught that sex was dirty. When I grew up, I discovered that sex was not dirty. You can certainly get dirty, or at least messy, when having sex, but sex itself is not dirty. (That “messy” thing can be pretty awesome, actually.)

The “purity” business I always knew was bullshit from having brothers and sisters.

I mean, teeeeechnicalllly the chances of bi people cheating are double that of any other sexuality ( straight, gay and lesbian ). More people you could like = more people you could cheat with. Seems logical to me.

Bisexuality doesn't work that way.

Mensa would say otherwise lol #top2%. There are no current statistics to say that bisexuals cheat more. What I am saying is, that they would have an easier time, since there are more fish in the sea.

You're a real piece of work, ain'cha? I could say the same thing about hetero/homosexual people with low standards, if I wanted to be an asshole. Just because someone is open to different kinds of relationships doesn't mean they're somehow incapable of being less faithful to the single type of relationship they're currently in. A bisexual person who cheats would likely do so regardless of their sexual preference, because that's the kind of person they are.

Mensa would say otherwise lol #top2%. There are no current statistics to say that bisexuals cheat more. What I am saying is, that they would have an easier time, since there are more fish in the sea.

You're a real piece of work, ain'cha? I could say the same thing about hetero/homosexual people with low standards, if I wanted to be an asshole. Just because someone is open to different kinds of relationships doesn't mean they're somehow incapable of being less faithful to the single type of relationship they're currently in. A bisexual person who cheats would likely do so regardless of their sexual preference, because that's the kind of person they are.

What part of "There are no current statistics to say that bisexuals cheat more." did you not understand? And using your argument, a bisexual person with low standards would have even more chances to cheat if they so wished to do. Why is it that so many people on Dynasty like to interpret something in a way that is offensive to them, so that they can get triggered about it. Like the one before saying "Are you saying that a relationship between girls is unrealistic in real life?" from me saying "We don't want realism. We read yuri for girl x girl relationships." on the one shot "So, Do You Wanna Go Out, Or?"

I guess the amount of feminists and social justice warriors is higher than normal on here.

Using Mensa to justify how smart you are and therefore how right your point is, I'm dyin' here!

Using Mensa to justify how smart you are and therefore how right your point is, I'm dyin' here!

Using Mensa to counter the argument that I am retarded. And no, you are not dying, because otherwise you would not be able to type stuff interpreted the wrong way. Unless you mean dying, as in slowly dying over the rest of your life. Which makes sense and is what happens. Cells die every second. Bactria die even faster since there are more of them. 95% of yourself dies every 5 years and is replaced by new cells. I'm going on a tangent now lol

What part of "There are no current statistics to say that bisexuals cheat more." did you not understand? And using your argument, a bisexual person with low standards would have even more chances to cheat if they so wished to do. Why is it that so many people on Dynasty like to interpret something in a way that is offensive to them, so that they can get triggered about it. Like the one before saying "Are you saying that a relationship between girls is unrealistic in real life?" from me saying "We don't want realism. We read yuri for girl x girl relationships." on the one shot "So, Do You Wanna Go Out, Or?"

I guess the amount of feminists and social justice warriors is higher than normal on here.

First: I didn't use that argument, because that would make me an asshole. Second: You are offending me. You can dress it up however you like, but what you're saying is offensive, and you don't need to be saying it.

I've made my point here. I'm just going to step away and let Nezchan do her job now.

What part of "There are no current statistics to say that bisexuals cheat more." did you not understand? And using your argument, a bisexual person with low standards would have even more chances to cheat if they so wished to do. Why is it that so many people on Dynasty like to interpret something in a way that is offensive to them, so that they can get triggered about it. Like the one before saying "Are you saying that a relationship between girls is unrealistic in real life?" from me saying "We don't want realism. We read yuri for girl x girl relationships." on the one shot "So, Do You Wanna Go Out, Or?"

I guess the amount of feminists and social justice warriors is higher than normal on here.

First: I didn't use that argument, because that would make me an asshole. Second: You are offending me. You can dress it up however you like, but what you're saying is offensive, and you don't need to be saying it.

I've made my point here. I'm just going to step away and let Nezchan do her job now.

But offensiveness is subjective. I could also say that I am offended by being called retarded right? I don't get your point. And you did use the argument. You said "Someone with low standards would have a higher chance of being able to cheat if they wanted to". I used it in the same way, but added the fact that if you have low standards, + like both men and women, you would have even more people you could cheat with if you so wished to do. And really? "You are offending me." bruh... Not everyone has the same opinions as you do. You have to learn to accept that not all people think the same. If you get offended by every little thing, then you are not in for a good trip.

last edited at May 24, 2018 4:20PM

Using Mensa to justify how smart you are and therefore how right your point is, I'm dyin' here!

Using Mensa to counter the argument that I am retarded.

I've seen Mensa members who are absolute idiots when they get outside their field of expertise. Doubly so when you're talking social matters. A number on a test that's known to be flawed, measuring a quality we don't even have a firm definition on doesn't really say much except you're good at passing that particular kind of test.

But wow, do Mensa members love to brag about that number though.

As to dying... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-jytIyB05s

(psst...it's slang for laughing so hard it hurts. Those pesky social matters, remember?)

Using Mensa to justify how smart you are and therefore how right your point is, I'm dyin' here!

Using Mensa to counter the argument that I am retarded.

I've seen Mensa members who are absolute idiots when they get outside their field of expertise. Doubly so when you're talking social matters. A number on a test that's known to be flawed, measuring a quality we don't even have a firm definition on doesn't really say much except you're good at passing that particular kind of test.

But wow, do Mensa members love to brag about that number though.

As to dying... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-jytIyB05s

(psst...it's slang for laughing so hard it hurts. Those pesky social matters, remember?)

Weird how my social circle is so big eh? Guess that people with lower IQ love to assume things. I on the other hand, like to base what I say on facts, data and statistics. Jokes aside, I subjectively doubt you have seen any Mensa members. Humans like to associate with people that they relate to. If you are from a specific social, economical and in this case intellectual class, you are most likely to associate with people like yourself. Since opinions unlike your own hurt, remember? :).

Bisexuals cheat more cuz theres more ppl to cheat with? That is the dumbest thing I've heard
I guess every bi person doesn't have morals huh.

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

I will not delve into the whole gay-purity-destroyed-by-het, because I find the whole concept to be beyond ridiculous, but I will point out you chose the wrong example. "Octave" did not use het to "drive home the knife" with the cheating aspect, it was an element of Yukino's confusion about her own sexuality, and her wanting to know where she stood. The way she went about it was wrong, but not because of het, and it was certainly not used to make the cheating worse in the eyes of the audience.

Argh. First of all, when I talk about, cute little yuri girl throwing away her purity, with a guy, I'm talking about yuri stories. NOT REAL LIFE! I'm not some chiche anime character obsessed with purity. Anyway didn't you see my earlier comment about heterosexuality making the end of yuri stories more satisfying.

Second Yukino's one night stand, with the creep in the cab (I know I'm not being fair to him), was less about questioning her sexuality, and more about her feeling lost and lonely. Yukino latched on to the first person who showed her kindness, just because Setsuka shut off her phone, to work, and wasn't available to comfort her.
If Yukino's affair wasn't ment to drive in the knife, the author sure went out of her way to do so. I mean, the exact moment Yukino was cheating on Setsuka, Setsuka was coming to the conclusion that she was totally in love with Yukino. Then Setsuka rushed over to Yukino's apartment, to tell her. Only to fall asleep waiting, so Setsuka could be there to witness Yukino's walk of shame. Then finally, Yukino pushes Setsuka away, out of guilt. If that's not driving home the knife, I don't know what is. The only way that scene could have been anymore heartbreaking for Setsuka, is if she would have walked in on Yukino and the guy doing it.

Third, I just want to go on the record, and say I don't think a bisexual person is anymore likely to cheat, than a straight, or gay person.

last edited at May 25, 2018 2:14AM

In my case it's not so much that bisexuality is bad (hell, I'm biromantic myself), but I don't trust manga authors to be any good at depicting it. As a rule they've got a history of being pretty terrible at it.

So bis are great, stories about bis tend to be pretty crap.

Didn't you know? Male or female, we only exist to incite narrative drama by cheating on our partners.

And we always cheat with people of the opposite gender than our partners. Yuri manga have not been kind to bi people, lol.

It's not just yuri manga. I read a webcomic where the exact same thing happened with a male couple.

There could be a small grain of truth in there, although not in the sense of bi people being somehow actually more horrible than straight or gay ones. I talked once (hence this is not really a representative sample) with a lesbian on this site whose girlfriend cheated on her with a guy, she did say the fact it was a guy made the whole experience harder to take. But that does not apply to all lesbians, I imagine, plus, even when it is relevant it is only applicable to situations where a bi person actually cheats, and cheats with a person of the opposite gender, at that. And the chances of bi people cheating are no different than those of gay or straight people.

There is also the fact most yuri fans look at any traces of het in their yuri as the work of Satan himself, and there is no way authors who work primarily or solely in this genre are unaware of that. If I had to guess, I would say the writers are probably using bi characters for cheap shock value, as in, to somehow make cheating even more horrible than it already is in the eyes of the audience. Yaoi genre could be doing it for the same cheap reasons. Mind you, this is just idle speculation on my part.

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

Be my friend. Let us hate heterosexuality together. Even though I am straight myself. Hypocritical, I know. If only my girlfriend and I were the only heterosexual people in the world, that would be perfect.

I accept your friend request. Now lets rule the yuri galaxy with an iron fist. Go forth and show those het lovers the true power of the yuri side.

Bisexuals cheat more cuz theres more ppl to cheat with? That is the dumbest thing I've heard
I guess every bi person doesn't have morals huh.

You clearly did not read the whole conversation. That is like saying "There is no virus" after your computer has only been scanned 20% of the way.

Argh. First of all, when I talk about, cute little yuri girl throwing away her purity, with a guy, I'm talking about yuri stories. NOT REAL LIFE! I'm not some chiche anime character obsessed with purity. Anyway didn't you see my earlier comment about heterosexuality making the end of yuri stories more satisfying.

I think both readings of the het in Octave are plausible (although I lean more towards “Yukino testing her sexuality” myself), but while the series is a good example of the role het can play in a certain kind of yuri story, “purity” really wasn’t an issue for either of the main characters or for the story itself. (One of Yukino’s former partners in the idol group is now a hardcore porn actress, and while that’s not portrayed as a good thing, it’s not shown as eternal damnation or beyond the pale of human behavior, either.)

In other words, Octave is rather more grown-up and real-life about sex and sexuality than most yuri manga where “purity” is an issue, so bringing it up using that example sounded like someone imposing the value on the story.

(And the main problem with the het guy in Octave (besides just being a het guy) was that he wasn’t aware that he was in a yuri manga. Of course, at that point Yukino wasn’t sure she was either.)

PS: And if we want to get deeper into the specifics of Octave, that thread might be the place to do it.

johnb posted:

Second Yukino's one night stand, with the creep in the cab (I know I'm not being fair to him), was less about questioning her sexuality, and more about her feeling lost and lonely. Yukino latched on to the first person who showed her kindness, just because Setsuka shut off her phone, to work, and wasn't available to comfort her.
If Yukino's affair wasn't ment to drive in the knife, the author sure went out of her way to do so. I mean, the exact moment Yukino was cheating on Setsuka, Setsuka was coming to the conclusion that she was totally in love with Yukino. Then Setsuka rushed over to Yukino's apartment, to tell her. Only to fall asleep waiting, so Setsuka could be there to witness Yukino's walk of shame. Then finally, Yukino pushes Setsuka away, out of guilt. If that's not driving home the knife, I don't know what is. The only way that scene could have been anymore heartbreaking for Setsuka, is if she would have walked in on Yukino and the guy doing it.

Wow you missed so much context in that scene. That is what happens when people got blinded the second het appears in yuri story and they are unable to see it as anything more than the worse thing ever, because of their inner rage. You called him creep and said you are unfair to him, that already shows how you treat all male characters equally, as something that shouldn't be there, just because it interfered with yuri in any way. Especially since he was actually being really nice to Yukino and he never forced her to anything. Yukino was feeling lost and lonely, but that was because she wasn't sure about her sexuality and how much Setsuko really loved her. The entire part of that manga is kinda all about it. You are entirely blaming Yukino, but it was equally Setsuko fault, if not even more. Yukino was never before attracted to a woman and she was new to idea of girls loving each other so she was totally lost and confused. Then Setsuko, the person she is supposedly going out with, told her she can try doing it with a guy if she want. Setsuko assumed Yukino will simply reject the idea, saying she loves her so of course she won't do it or something. And that is where she fucked up. Because instead, it confused Yukino a freaking lot, because she didn't expected to be told that and wasn't sure how to take it. Does that mean Setsuko doesn't love her, does she think their relationship is not that serious? So she end up not saying anything and the conversation cut. Setsuko simply forgot about it, since she wasn't serious, but she didn't realize Yukino was thinking about it entire time. And Setsuko didn't help either with how often she seemed to act distant and not care that much about their relationship. Never properly saying they are lovers etc. She wasn't aware of it, but she wasn't really showing Yukino she is serious about it. Yukino is flawed and weak character. She has low self-esteem and a lot of complexes. So put in this situation, her confidence how much their relationship was real kept growing. Getting all depressed over it she felt uneasy and when in the moment she needed it the most she couldn't reach Setsuko, she was feeling so bad, she decided to do what Setsuko told her in a spur of the moment, in order to clear her feelings. Sure, she should simply talk about her issues with Setsuko. She was told to do it, but still she probably should ask Setsuko before doing it (I'm not blaming her for not doing it though, if someone told me it is ok to do something, I wouldn't feel need to confirm it every single time). It probably would clarify Setsuko didn't really mean it and wasn't ok with it. But again that is Setsuko fault. She wasn't ok with it, yet once Yukino gave her no relpy, she never clarified. I'm fine with it, because it fit Yukino's character. She was confused and lost and wasn't sure whatever Setsuko was just playing with her temporary or not. It was important moment for both of them, but especially Setsuko learned the hard way how little affection and confirmation she was showing Yukino, to get her that insecure about their relationship.

That scene is the perfect example how things actually look in real life. People are not perfect. They make stupid mistakes, but they need to learn from them and improve. From the beginning Octave wasn't meant to be your typical fluffy and happy romance. It is more down to earth and realistic, willing to do bad things to characters, but I don't think that is a bad thing, since it fit characters and tone of the story.

last edited at May 25, 2018 7:38AM

^You guys have made me re-read most of Octave again (and thanks for that—what a good series), and Nevri’s right—I had forgotten just how much a huge chunk of the first section is all about Yukino wondering about the differences between men and women’s bodies, and particularly (not to put too fine a point on it) the male penis, its nature and application.

Really, really a far cry from the “and here’s a random jerky het guy to amp up the drama” move that sometimes happens in yuri.

SomethingOrOther, leave it. I'm deleting your gratuitously gross post. Don't bother rewriting it, I'm calling an end to this frankly idiotic argument which is tangential to the actual manga at best.

Can we all just go back to agreeing that this middle schooler is a meanie pants?

While I don't necessarily agree she is nothing but a meanie pants, I found myself waxing nostalgic for the time when everybody was saying that during these last few pages of the thread.

last edited at May 25, 2018 12:52PM

Can we all just go back to agreeing that this middle schooler is a meanie pants?

Discussions do tend to eventually go off the rails with these twisty, “this can’t possibly end well” plot situations, don’t they? Apologies for my contributions to the wreckage; I should have seen it coming in time to stay out of it.

It makes sense that unsettling stories generate unsettled postings.