This latest chapter made the characters feel like puppets acting according to an author's script. They go along with a ridiculous plan more because it's a nice dramatic device than because of any sort of internal motivation. I guess my problem isn't with the play-within-a-play, it's that the author has done a bad job dressing it up.

Care to elaborate how this particular chapter makes the characters feel like puppets? Since this chapter is mostly just the characters rehearsing their lines & Touko has been taking the play personally since forever, so what is it about this particular chapter that makes it contrived? Akari's subplot has literally nothing to do with the play. Touko ignoring Yuu is not part of the play. Like, if you think the whole idea of the play itself is contrived because the author is solving the characters' problems through just the play, then I can get your argument, although I don't agree with it (the play sure has been a catalyst that gets the characters to be more self-aware of their situations, but most of the conflicts that are addressing the characters' problems happen outside of it & through proper communication instead), but I don't see why this particular chap makes you think it's contrived. Not attacking, just very curious. Because if you're talking about internal motivations, we know that Touko is heavily obsessed with the play and takes it on a personal level (Sayaka noted this lt last chapter) & all attempts at reasoning with her have gone nowhere since she's so fixated on it (ch 10, 22, & 23), so it makes sense that Yuu & Sayaka are using the play to meet Touko at her level so they can knock some sense into that thick skull of hers and it's not that they are hoping the play will magically change her, more like they hope she can take something away from it and then the change can slowly happen afterwards. But your complaint is towards the delivery and execution & I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind it.

last edited at Nov 5, 2017 5:35AM

So since seeing the new ending, all Touko has done is brood. The few pages she's in are entirely just her being upset. I think this is the source of my complaint - there isn't much focus on her, and the little focus there is just makes her look very one-dimensional. Especially the "You told me you'd help me" at the end of the latest chapter. For some reason, that scene really bothers me.

When the message is delivered via the script weeks before the performance, then there's the question of what they're doing in between. The play-within-a-play in say, Hamlet, works because the performance of the play is the delivery of the message - the King sees the play and that's when he reacts. In this example, both the sender and the recipient have the script of the play. The delivery was complete when Touko first read the new ending. So all this time between her reading it and them performing it feels very bizarre, like they're sending passive aggressive notes across a classroom but refusing to speak to each other during break.

On the other hand, Touko is of course obsessed with performing the play. This is the highlight of everything she's been working towards, and it was hinted that she might even be thinking of killing herself once it's complete. So maybe the performance itself doesn't have to be some big confrontation - she already got the message, but it doesn't mean anything until after the play is complete. Even if she feels personally attacked by the script, she still has to go along with it because performing it is her mission, which explains the passive-aggressive attitude. I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised by the next few chapters and completely forget all my complaints, but right now it just feels so awkward.

I must admit that the descriptive parts of this explanation sound like they’re accurate, but I’m still having trouble understanding the basis of why this situation is particularly awkward in terms of plot construction or storytelling.

the little focus there is [on Touko] just makes her look very one-dimensional.

At this point, she actually is pretty one-dimensional, and your post gives a good explanation of why—since she’s on the outs with Yuu, all she has left of her identity is this increasingly threadbare goal of putting on the play, no matter what its content.

Only Yuu, Touko, and Sayaka know that putting on the play is particularly important to Touko’s sense of self or that the theme has any parallels with her psychological state. (Koyomi has no idea that she’s hit so close to mark in regard to Touko’s character.) Touko already knows (from her sister’s senpai) that her “become perfect like Mio” project was based on a flawed premise from the start, so the play just gives her an opportunity to consider an alternative to her present dead-end course.

You’re right—one or more big confrontations are looming, but the performance of the play itself doesn’t have to be it. I’m just not sure how that translates into the narrative device of the play being problematic.

I think this is the source of my complaint - there isn't much focus on her, and the little focus there is just makes her look very one-dimensional. Especially the "You told me you'd help me" at the end of the latest chapter. For some reason, that scene really bothers me.

But only one chapter has happened since she found out about the new ending. I think you're exaggerating here. Chapter 26 focused on Sayaka first, because it was neccesary to show her point of view and because it shows her character development. I was expecting Touko's full reaction to the new script and the inminent confrontation with Yuu would start in chapter 27, and I agree chapter 27 seems irrelevant (as of now), so if the whole Akari and Doujima thing doesn't lead to Yuu doing something important and related to the actual plot like confessing or at least admitting her feelings to herself i'd feel like this entire chapter was just a filler and I'd feel disappointed.
There's also the fact that Nakatani has made a confrontation happen in the last chapter of a volume, so this volume shouldn't be the exception. It's like a "big end to a volume" thing, being emotional and intense. So the fact we haven't seen Touko's full point of view yet is because of this. We just have to wait until chapter 28 strikes.
As of now, Touko is deliberately one-dimensional because she is just obsessed with this play. But behind that there's a girl whose problems feel real, so I wouldn't call her totally one-dimensional.

When the message is delivered via the script weeks before the performance, then there's the question of what they're doing in between. The play-within-a-play in say, Hamlet, works because the performance of the play is the delivery of the message - the King sees the play and that's when he reacts. In this example, both the sender and the recipient have the script of the play. The delivery was complete when Touko first read the new ending. So all this time between her reading it and them performing it feels very bizarre, like they're sending passive aggressive notes across a classroom but refusing to speak to each other during break.

I think this is the idea here. Yuu tried to reason with Touko by talking to her and it didn't work at all, she's just trying to do something to help her and since Touko is totally obsessed with this play, Yuu didn't see a better alternative. And it's not both of them refusing to talk to each other, it's just Touko avoiding Yuu, who tried to normally spend time with her like usual but was rejected. They haven't talked about their issues because Touko doesn't want to. She is practicing the new lines because she's forced to, she spoke against the new end but nobody supported her, so she has no option but to accept and practice the new lines, because her desire to make this play perfect on stage is stronger than anything else. I don't really see what's bizarre about the situation if you have in mind this facts. A real talk between Touko and Yuu is meant to happen at some point, it can't be held back anymore after Touko found out about the new ending. Like I stated above, I'm pretty sure this will happen next chapter.

maybe the performance itself doesn't have to be some big confrontation

I feel like the performance will be important but the real confrontation will happen behind the stage. At least, the resolution to Touko and Yuu's weird dynamic so far must be resolved behind the stage. The play is meant to make Touko reason about her choices, she is supposed to realise and accept this, and not necessary by performing during the real thing (but I guess this happening on stage feels more dramatic and intense, in a good sense).

I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised by the next few chapters and completely forget all my complaints, but right now it just feels so awkward.

Me too, I hope next chapter will be good but at the same time I'm afraid everything will go to hell...

last edited at Nov 5, 2017 7:42PM

I hope next chapter will be good but at the same time I'm afraid everything will go to hell...

Me too, but I strongly suspect that both of those things will be true at the same time (especially since we apparently have an entire volume for things to work themselves out).

This is going to be 5 volumes right?

This is going to be 5 volumes right?

No way this will end next chapter. 6 volumes at least, and even that would feel rushed

skulll posted:

This is going to be 5 volumes right?

No way this will end next chapter. 6 volumes at least, and even that would feel rushed

1)No transfer student
2)No beach episode
3)No tournament arc

10 volumes, give or take

skulll posted:

This is going to be 5 volumes right?

No way this will end next chapter. 6 volumes at least, and even that would feel rushed

1)No transfer student
2)No beach episode
3)No tournament arc

10 volumes, give or take

I'm not following it so I don't know how it is story progression-wise, I was more asking because Amazon had the volumes 'out of 5'.

skulll posted:

This is going to be 5 volumes right?

No way this will end next chapter. 6 volumes at least, and even that would feel rushed

1)No transfer student
2)No beach episode
3)No tournament arc

10 volumes, give or take

I'm not following it so I don't know how it is story progression-wise, I was more asking because Amazon had the volumes 'out of 5'.

What? Did it get cancelled? D: otherwise it wouldn't make sense at all that next chapter is the last one D:

skulll posted:

This is going to be 5 volumes right?

No way this will end next chapter. 6 volumes at least, and even that would feel rushed

1)No transfer student
2)No beach episode
3)No tournament arc

10 volumes, give or take

I'm not following it so I don't know how it is story progression-wise, I was more asking because Amazon had the volumes 'out of 5'.

What? Did it get cancelled? D: otherwise it wouldn't make sense at all that next chapter is the last one D:

It currently has 5 volumes out of 5 seems normal because ya know there isn't a 6th volume yet? I mean the same goes on with books in a series future books are not listed to buy because you can't buy what isn't released yet unless it's a videogame.

I think this is the source of my complaint - there isn't much focus on her, and the little focus there is just makes her look very one-dimensional. Especially the "You told me you'd help me" at the end of the latest chapter. For some reason, that scene really bothers me.

Touko has barely changed since the start of the story. Her development has plateaued (if it even began at all), and she just wants to stay the same. But that's the thing. I think that's why she's so one-dimensional. She wants things to stay as they are. She wants another Mio around. She wants people to feel like the perfect girl/student president/sister is still here. Usually, when people undergo a traumatic event (in Touko's case, her sister's death), their first reactions is to create something or keep something preserved in order to remind them of past times--simpler or happier times.

At this point, to me, this whole story isn't about a romance or anything like that at all. It's about one girl's journey trying to get someone she cares about immensely to fully realize just how self-destructive she is in a very selfish way and then move onto the road to recovery. It's about a person who is capable of self-reflection and self-awareness and using that to help another person to get out of a bad situation they put themselves in. The romance is just a nice extra thrown in.

Also, unrelated, but can we take a second to appreciate Doujima in this chapter? I thought he was like any other "boyish, slightly annoying underclassman" archetype, but like Nakatani keeps proving with several other characters throughout the story, he's not. I thought his reaction to Akari's rejection and his viewpoint on love and confessions was spot-on because he makes a good point. Confessing isn't easy, and if someone walks up to you and tells you they like you, they're being honest to you. So it's only fair to be honest back. And Oogaki-senpai didn't have the respect or gall to do that for Akari. Like Doujima said, "What a jerk."

I love how Nakatani actually gives the supporting characters time to grow and/or show their other layers, too. She's so good at stuff like that.

last edited at Nov 11, 2017 6:18PM

At this point, to me, this whole story isn't about a romance or anything like that at all. It's about one girl's journey trying to get someone she cares about immensely to fully realize just how self-destructive she is in a very selfish way and then move onto the road to recovery. It's about a person who is capable of self-reflection and self-awareness and using that to help another person to get out of a bad situation they put themselves in. The romance is just a nice extra thrown in.

Well she did say she's drawing the center of a GL story so you have a point there.

I don't like the whole Touko being an emotional mess thing. It's uber-cliché for a dark-haired female character to have a melancholy arc and in Touko's case, it comes over as very extreme to the point of being unimaginable.
What we got here is a girl who feels like she has no identity and whose only goal in life is to become her sister.
Oh and Yuu isn't allowed to fall in love with her because she doesn't want her to put pressure on her.
Only she is the one who is putting that pressure on herself. Not the people who love her.
And she hates herself. If that hatred was there because she feels guilty over her sisters' death that would be understandable. A thread that she might begin to unravel her problems with. So maybe that's something for the future.
But in as far as their relationship is developing I guess it's a pretty serviceable tool.
I only hope this isn't going to get much messier than it is because I enjoyed this manga very much when those emotional problems weren't so spread out. So I hope Touko's problems can get solved without getting too much into melodrama territory. And I hope Touko can take charge of helping herself and becoming a happier person and doesn't have to be saved.

Or in other words: Nakatani-san, just don't make Touko cry, okay?

last edited at Nov 23, 2017 2:58PM

She's totally going to go off script and force everyone to adlib at the very last moment.

Knowing Touko that's a very real possibility.

So since seeing the new ending, all Touko has done is brood. The few pages she's in are entirely just her being upset. I think this is the source of my complaint - there isn't much focus on her, and the little focus there is just makes her look very one-dimensional. Especially the "You told me you'd help me" at the end of the latest chapter. For some reason, that scene really bothers me.

When the message is delivered via the script weeks before the performance, then there's the question of what they're doing in between. The play-within-a-play in say, Hamlet, works because the performance of the play is the delivery of the message - the King sees the play and that's when he reacts. In this example, both the sender and the recipient have the script of the play. The delivery was complete when Touko first read the new ending. So all this time between her reading it and them performing it feels very bizarre, like they're sending passive aggressive notes across a classroom but refusing to speak to each other during break.

On the other hand, Touko is of course obsessed with performing the play. This is the highlight of everything she's been working towards, and it was hinted that she might even be thinking of killing herself once it's complete. So maybe the performance itself doesn't have to be some big confrontation - she already got the message, but it doesn't mean anything until after the play is complete. Even if she feels personally attacked by the script, she still has to go along with it because performing it is her mission, which explains the passive-aggressive attitude. I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised by the next few chapters and completely forget all my complaints, but right now it just feels so awkward.

"it was hinted that she might even be thinking of killing herself once it's complete."
I hated that part especially. God! How contrived!
I think the play has been set up in her eyes as a turning point. Once the play is done she is done walking in her sisters' shoes and she truly becomes her sister because it's the thing her sister couldn't complete.
I hope the author isn't going to go super dramatic now and stays with how the mood of the manga has been up till now.
A smooth - though slow - realisation that she is loved and that to the people around her she is actually a pretty amazing person, and that it's good to be that person and that she makes people happy being that person through conversation and interaction and self-reflection would be best i think and would be most in line with what went before.

last edited at Nov 23, 2017 2:54PM

I don't like the whole Touko being an emotional mess thing. It's uber-cliché for a dark-haired female character to have a melancholy arc and in Touko's case, it comes over as very extreme to the point of being unimaginable.
What we got here is a girl who feels like she has no identity and whose only goal in life is to become her sister.
Oh and Yuu isn't allowed to fall in love with her because she doesn't want her to put pressure on her.
Only she is the one who is putting that pressure on herself. Not the people who love her.
And she hates herself. If that hatred was there because she feels guilty over her sisters' death that would be understandable. A thread that she might begin to unravel her problems with. So maybe that's something for the future.

It was implied in chapter 17 she feels some guilt because she may feel her sister died because of her. So her hatred is a mix of multiple factors, due to that incident and Touko also mentioned she felt inferior when she was a kid because she was unremakarble in every aspect. So it's low self-steem that grew stronger over the years, I guess the fact she doesn't know who she really is and her lack of an own identity just make it worse. It's not that contrived, I felt exactly like Touko a few years ago, I'm not an expert but she may have some anxiety/personality disorder or maybe borderline or PTSD.

last edited at Nov 23, 2017 9:43PM

I hope the author isn't going to go super dramatic now and stays with how the mood of the manga has been up till now.
A smooth - though slow - realisation that she is loved and that to the people around her she is actually a pretty amazing person, and that it's good to be that person and that she makes people happy being that person through conversation and interaction and self-reflection would be best i think and would be most in line with what went before.

Touko's development so far has never been about her "slowly realizing she's loved." Yuu even points out that alternative to her back in ch 10 and she refuses it. So ever since vol 2, it has been established that Touko is deeply fucked up--that she is too stubborn to realize others' love for her and that she can't come to that realization on her own (& this is what killing who she is). So all the recent developments with her becoming more and more emo & possibly suicidal are just reasonable extensions of everything that has been established and leading up to them. The story is definitely getting more intense/dramatic with Touko's emotional problem spilling over the surface, & you're free to dislike the direction, but it's in no way contrived or out of touch with how the story has been building up so far. Her being an emotional mess has always been an undecurrent throughout the story--every monologue (ch 10, 12, & 17) & certain tense post-ch 10 interactions she has with Yuu (ch 13 & 19) have pointed to the fact that Touko has very misguided way of thinking. The characters who are aware of how fucked up she is, namely Yuu & Sayaka, have been ignoring this problem in favor of maintaining the status quo and only now that the truth about her sister's identity is revealed and with Yuu and Sayaka teaming up against her unhealthy situation that Touko's emotional problem is laid out in bare.

What we got here is a girl who feels like she has no identity and whose only goal in life is to become her sister.
Oh and Yuu isn't allowed to fall in love with her because she doesn't want her to put pressure on her.
Only she is the one who is putting that pressure on herself. Not the people who love her.
And she hates herself. If that hatred was there because she feels guilty over her sisters' death that would be understandable.

All of these are indeed her problems, but they're more connected and not as fragmented as how they are listed here. Connecting the dots is important to help us understand her as a character. Basically, Touko is a girl with a low self-esteem ever since she was young (ch 5). Triggered by the guilt over the death of her own sister as well as by the hurtful words of her relatives, that low self-esteerm turns into self-hatred (ch 10 & 17). She hates who she is so she denounces her own identity & starts forcing herself to live in the shadow of her own version of her sister's identity (ch 10, 19, & 22). This causes Touko to lose sight of who she is as a person (ch 17 & 22). & since people only love her for her sister's identity & since she hates her own identity so much that she doesn't want anyone to come to love that side of her, she also ends up putting up a barrier and denounces being loved (ch 10 & 22). However, it is stressful just faking it all the time, so when she met Yuu, she found an outlet for emotional relief (ch 5, 10, 19, & 24). Basically, a coping mechanism to keep her sane. However, her eyes are still fixed on trying to live her life as her sister and that's why she also needs Sayaka around--the fact that she's also a perfect role model & that she does not pry into her personal bubble help Touko keep up her perfect facade (ch 12). Since she is so fixated upon becoming her sister & on carrying out the play for her sister's sake, once the truth hits her about how everything she has been living for up to that point is a lie (according to her) and very much meaningless, she comes to realize that she has nowhere to go once the play is over & this is the start of her suicidal thoughts (ch 23). To make things worse, the two supports she has to help her keep up her ideal (but unhealthy) way of living decide to turn against her--and she indeed perceives this as a personal attack (ch 26). With everything hitting her all at once, it makes sense why she becomes reclusive & passive-agressive this recent chapter. The problem with Touko is that she is way too stubborn to admit she has any problems and that she is in the wrong (ch 10, 22, & 27). Something has to happen to slap some sense into her and get her to face her problems--so the undoing and healing process can actually begin (& with Touko, I think this will be a life-long process). I'm sure that trigger will be something intense & I expect some tears to be shed, but melodrama? I doubt this series will ever get there.

Touko is a flawed character & I can see why some are put off by her & her recent developments, but I honestly don't think she's one-dimensional or contrivedly-written in any way. One heavy baggage for sure, but not an irredeemable one.

last edited at Nov 23, 2017 11:19PM

^
This is an excellent recap of the development of Touko’s character up to this point. To emphasize a bit of the positive, however, when she initially reaches out to Yuu in the first place, while the terms she establishes for their relationship are fundamentally unhealthy, the fact that she does it at all suggests (or may suggest) that at some level she’s aware of her need for an alternative to the “fake being your dead sister until you make it” project. (The crisis for that project really becomes acute when the older drama senpai reveals that Mio as student council president was nothing like Touko thought she was.)

In her relationship with Yuu we see a Touko who is shy, vulnerable, affectionate (and horny), as well as desperately self-loathing and emotionally repressed. As a reader I want that cute (and smart and highly competent) Touko to be the “real” one in the end, but she’s been a potential psychological time-bomb from the opening moments of the story.

I don't like the whole Touko being an emotional mess thing. It's uber-cliché for a dark-haired female character to have a melancholy arc and in Touko's case, it comes over as very extreme to the point of being unimaginable.
What we got here is a girl who feels like she has no identity and whose only goal in life is to become her sister.
Oh and Yuu isn't allowed to fall in love with her because she doesn't want her to put pressure on her.
Only she is the one who is putting that pressure on herself. Not the people who love her.
And she hates herself. If that hatred was there because she feels guilty over her sisters' death that would be understandable. A thread that she might begin to unravel her problems with. So maybe that's something for the future.

It was implied in chapter 17 she feels some guilt because she may feel her sister died because of her. So her hatred is a mix of multiple factors, due to that incident and Touko also mentioned she felt inferior when she was a kid because she was unremakarble in every aspect. So it's low self-steem that grew stronger over the years, I guess the fact she doesn't know who she really is and her lack of an own identity just make it worse. It's not that contrived, I felt exactly like Touko a few years ago, I'm not an expert but she may have some anxiety/personality disorder or maybe borderline or PTSD.

It wasn't implied. We saw images of them playing rock, paper, scissors for who would go get more milk (or water?). Her feeling guilty over her sister's death is our implication. Granted it seems logical, but we have nothing to base that assumption on and it really would have been logical for this to have been made clearer before.
But that is not why it is contrived.
It is contrived because she is a dark-haired girl who is presented as having inherent personality problems. The author couldn't even give her the respect of having her be a girl with a healthy self-esteem before she had to deal with her sisters death. She had to portray her as an inherently emotionally troubled person. We never see such portrayal for girls with lighter hair color. If Touko had been a girl with light hair it would have been innovative to portray her with these kinds of deep-seated personality problems, as it is it is contrived and cheap.
The love they feel for each other is beautifully portrayed, but at heart, this is just another story of a melancholy dark-haired girl having to be saved from herself by her fair-haired lover.
I wish yuri writers would move past these kind of boring archetypes already.

I hope the author isn't going to go super dramatic now and stays with how the mood of the manga has been up till now.
A smooth - though slow - realisation that she is loved and that to the people around her she is actually a pretty amazing person, and that it's good to be that person and that she makes people happy being that person through conversation and interaction and self-reflection would be best i think and would be most in line with what went before.

Touko's development so far has never been about her "slowly realizing she's loved." Yuu even points out that alternative to her back in ch 10 and she refuses it. So ever since vol 2, it has been established that Touko is deeply fucked up--that she is too stubborn to realize others' love for her and that she can't come to that realization on her own (& this is what killing who she is). So all the recent developments with her becoming more and more emo & possibly suicidal are just reasonable extensions of everything that has been established and leading up to them. The story is definitely getting more intense/dramatic with Touko's emotional problem spilling over the surface, & you're free to dislike the direction, but it's in no way contrived or out of touch with how the story has been building up so far. Her being an emotional mess has always been an undecurrent throughout the story--every monologue (ch 10, 12, & 17) & certain tense post-ch 10 interactions she has with Yuu (ch 13 & 19) have pointed to the fact that Touko has very misguided way of thinking. The characters who are aware of how fucked up she is, namely Yuu & Sayaka, have been ignoring this problem in favor of maintaining the status quo and only now that the truth about her sister's identity is revealed and with Yuu and Sayaka teaming up against her unhealthy situation that Touko's emotional problem is laid out in bare.

What we got here is a girl who feels like she has no identity and whose only goal in life is to become her sister.
Oh and Yuu isn't allowed to fall in love with her because she doesn't want her to put pressure on her.
Only she is the one who is putting that pressure on herself. Not the people who love her.
And she hates herself. If that hatred was there because she feels guilty over her sisters' death that would be understandable.

All of these are indeed her problems, but they're more connected and not as fragmented as how they are listed here. Connecting the dots is important to help us understand her as a character. Basically, Touko is a girl with a low self-esteem ever since she was young (ch 5). Triggered by the guilt over the death of her own sister as well as by the hurtful words of her relatives, that low self-esteerm turns into self-hatred (ch 10 & 17). She hates who she is so she denounces her own identity & starts forcing herself to live in the shadow of her own version of her sister's identity (ch 10, 19, & 22). This causes Touko to lose sight of who she is as a person (ch 17 & 22). & since people only love her for her sister's identity & since she hates her own identity so much that she doesn't want anyone to come to love that side of her, she also ends up putting up a barrier and denounces being loved (ch 10 & 22). However, it is stressful just faking it all the time, so when she met Yuu, she found an outlet for emotional relief (ch 5, 10, 19, & 24). Basically, a coping mechanism to keep her sane. However, her eyes are still fixed on trying to live her life as her sister and that's why she also needs Sayaka around--the fact that she's also a perfect role model & that she does not pry into her personal bubble help Touko keep up her perfect facade (ch 12). Since she is so fixated upon becoming her sister & on carrying out the play for her sister's sake, once the truth hits her about how everything she has been living for up to that point is a lie (according to her) and very much meaningless, she comes to realize that she has nowhere to go once the play is over & this is the start of her suicidal thoughts (ch 23). To make things worse, the two supports she has to help her keep up her ideal (but unhealthy) way of living decide to turn against her--and she indeed perceives this as a personal attack (ch 26). With everything hitting her all at once, it makes sense why she becomes reclusive & passive-agressive this recent chapter. The problem with Touko is that she is way too stubborn to admit she has any problems and that she is in the wrong (ch 10, 22, & 27). Something has to happen to slap some sense into her and get her to face her problems--so the undoing and healing process can actually begin (& with Touko, I think this will be a life-long process). I'm sure that trigger will be something intense & I expect some tears to be shed, but melodrama? I doubt this series will ever get there.

Touko is a flawed character & I can see why some are put off by her & her recent developments, but I honestly don't think she's one-dimensional or contrivedly-written in any way. One heavy baggage for sure, but not an irredeemable one.

You are misinterpreting my words. I said:
"A smooth - though slow - realisation that she is loved and that to the people around her she is actually a pretty amazing person, and that it's good to be that person and that she makes people happy being that person through conversation and interaction and self-reflection would be best I think and would be most in line with what went before."
That was not a comment on what had been her development.
You call her "fucked up" "emo " "suicidal" but all of these things are conjecture and personal interpretation.
In fact, considering the problems the author shoved onto her, she has shown remarkable emotional strength in her reacting to the drama teachers revelations.
You also think she cannot come to the realization that she should love herself because of what she has accomplished and how she makes people love her on her own.this is at the heart of why her portrayal is contrived, because she should, in fact, be able to come to this realisation on her own. There is nothing about her emotional problems that should keep her from this realization except the author's contrivance that she should be saved like a helpless damsel in distress.
He emotional problems have been an undercurrent, but the tone of the story has thus far been such that it could have been reasonably expected that these problems could have found a solution via a slow, healthy, natural development in which Touko slowly starts to realize her mistaken goal, stops her emotional blackmail of Yuu and Sayaka (because they weren't ignoring the problem. They were frightened to address the problem) and allows Yuu to love her and learns to love herself.
What we have now is a contrived step into higher melodrama with Yuu essentially betraying Touko.
Because, no matter her emotional problems, Touko is a - fictional - person who has a right to make her own decisions concerning her life.
Touko has made it clear to Yuu several times that she doesn't need her to save her, she needs her to comfort her.
Yuu promised to respect that and now, as well intended as it is she betrayed that wish at a time when Touko needs that comfort the most so that she might deal with her problems at her own pace.
If she could no longer keep her promise to Touko she should have told her so, but in part because of Touko's bullying she is still frightened of being honest with her.
Now Yuu has taken away that comfort and possibly hurt herself in the process by making Touko feel that she can't trust her anymore. Sayaka will share the same heartache because Touko is smart enough to know her motives for going against her wishes and the result is a whole lot of unnecessary complications.
As has been hinted by others, forcing the issue in front of the whole school is not a healthy or a naturally grown way to deal with these kinds of thing.
It is a contrived melodramatic unnatural way of doing these things to sell copy through angst.

The way her problems are presented is indeed as fragmented and unconnected as I listed some of them.
If her characterization was not contrived we shouldn't have to connect the dots.
We have to connect them because her problems are a tool to create drama.
Her relatives didn't say hurtful things to her, just misguided ones.
"Basically, Touko is a girl with a low self-esteem ever since she was young "
This in itself is contrived, because there is no reason for her to be that way except because the author wanted to make it appear that she is inherently emotionally troubled because she is a dark-haired girl.
"Triggered by the guilt over the death of her own sister as well as by the hurtful words of her relatives, that low self-esteem turns into self-hatred (ch 10 & 17). She hates who she is so she denounces her own identity & starts forcing herself to live in the shadow of her own version of her sister's identity (ch 10, 19, & 22). This causes Touko to lose sight of who she is as a person (ch 17 & 22). & since people only love her for her sister's identity & since she hates her own identity so much that she doesn't want anyone to come to love that side of her, she also ends up putting up a barrier and denounces being loved (ch 10 & 22). However, it is stressful just faking it all the time, so when she met Yuu, she found an outlet for emotional relief "
But this, this takes the cake. I promise you, you can go on a tour around the world's psychiatries and therapists and nowhere would you find such an idiotic story.
I agree with your summation, and up until her self-hatred out of feeling guilty it is all within the realms of reality, but everything after that except for the part concerning Yuu is pure psycho-babble contrived to create as angsty a character as the author could dream up.
Sayaka is not her role model, Touko is Sayaka's role model according to her stating that Touko always clears the way (or something like that) for her. Sayaka actually reinforced Touko's behavior, rewarding it by keeping her distance as long as Touko appeared as the girl she could admire and love for her exceptional qualities and accomplishments.
And it has been stated that Sayaka loves Touko for her strength while Yuu has been portrayed to love her in part for the strength she is able to muster in spite of her weakness.
Or better put: Yuu loves her for how much she gives of herself.
Essentially I guess Touko is the kind of passionate person Yuu would like to be and she sparks that passion inside
of Yuu because of that love.
Maybe the passionate nature of that love and the fact that it sprouted from what before seemed like an emotional barren land can help Touko want to deserve that love by being and loving the person that sprouted it: herself.
Her own love for Yuu has already been shown to be in part a form of self-assertion.
And if she can actively use that love to find peace with herself that would actually lift this manga up amongst it's similarly flawed fellows, but if Yuu has to save her it is just another story about an absurdly melancholy dark-haired damsel in distress who needs to be saved by her lover.

Touko has never been portrayed as having suicidal thoughts, this is purely contrived imagery on the authors part and conjecture from readers.
At no time has Touko been shown to have suicidal thoughts (though I don't doubt she may make Touko express such thoughts in future for added melodrama).
She has not become reclusive or passive-aggressive. She was behaving as she did to Yuu because she felt hurt by her actions and did not trust herself to talk to her without saying things she did not want to, which is a normal reaction considering Yuu crossed a line she had made very clear to her.

"The problem with Touko is that she is way too stubborn to admit she has any problems and that she is in the wrong"
Here we agree, although when forced to adjust her way of life she is surprisingly elastic although not resourceful enough so far to find a new way of life for herself.
Touko does not need sense "slapped into her", she is a fictional person who has shown capable of sound judgment.
As such she is capable of solving her problems in time with a little help from her friends, this does not need to involve a trigger or tears, it does not need to be a life-long process and she does not need saving. Touko has shown she is able to overcome her problems if she wants to, all she needs is to stop being so stubborn, start being honest with her friends and to allow them to be honest with her without emotional blackmail. This is the natural and healthy way to overcome such problems, dramatic entertainment is not.

I hope you are right there is no melodrama in the future of this manga and I have no problems with Touko as a fictional person, as it is made clear by the people she knows she clearly is a person worth knowing and loving.
My problem is with the author's desire to create yet another "melancholy dark-haired girl needs her lover to save her from an absurd amount of emotional problems" story.
Such stories are in abundance and their unoriginality has become very tedious.

You are equally free to enjoy the direction the story seems to be taking, but the drama in this manga is contrived.
Touko is not a flawed character, the premise of the story is flawed.

last edited at Nov 24, 2017 6:12PM

^
I don’t quite understand why in this reading some of Touko’s characteristics are seen as inherent while others are “contrivances” imposed on her by the author. The world is full of people like Touko who are exceptionally accomplished and who demonstrate sound judgment—except when it comes to solving their own problems and resolving patterns of self-destructive behavior the “natural and healthy way.”

Maybe it’s just an extremely roundabout way of saying “I don’t find the character to be believable,” which is certainly your right. I’m also not sure I understand how changing her hair color would rectify any of the deficiencies that you believe you perceive.

There’s no doubt that the basic setup of the story is “contrived”—whatever the psychological backstory of the characters, having one character who has never fallen in love before fall in love at first sight with a second character because that character seems to be unable to fall in love is quite implausible. Equally implausible is that second character agreeing to be loved rather than saying, “Sorry, I’m not interested.” But for readers who can swallow that, these other supposed contrivances seem rather trivial.

Not sure if I should reply to that gigantic post since school is still killing me, but hair colors make good stories is now my favorite new meme.

I really don't know any story (yuri, at least) about a dark-haired girl with problems who needs to be saved by her girl. Could anyone recommend me some? Since apparently there are lots of stories like these and I think it would be interesting to read about them.
Also the complicated dark haired girl is a very common trope, I don't see how it would be different if Touko had light hair but okay.

last edited at Nov 25, 2017 1:17AM

Humm interesting..

https://twitter.com/yagakimi/status/934672689167339522